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Child Item

Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

Akesh

Imagine the shock and horror in Leinster House when it was discovered that a country, where over 91% of the population are white, has a civil service that is 'very white'. To correct this error, he would like to use targets for the civil service to hire more minorities.

These kinds of targets are illogical and in no way should a public servant be hired on the basis of their skin colour or race but this is what he wants to introduce.

Is this just another reactionary policy in reaction to the death of George Floyd or does it have merit? Obviously recruiters in the civil service are racists otherwise there would be no need for such a policy/target.

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jackboy

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Yeah, diversity never works out. It’s a failed experiment.

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it. Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

growleaves

Irish people suffered some minor racism but to be fair many were treated so much worse at home that they volutarily emigrated to London and other English cities.

I disagree. Many fled economically moribund Irish towns to go to UK centres of commercialism like London. That doesn't mean they received better treatment as a person in a UK metropolis than in their own village where they grew up.

Thinkingaboutit

In some places mostly white, the solution some have is to have a low paid public service, mainly ethnic because only the desperate would work there. He's saying, in a roundabout way, that he wants to cut wages and salaries there. If someone doesn't the civil service for some reason, Leo Varadkar is only concerned with enriching his friends and fooling people into voting for his party. I doubt his pals like high salaries of any sort, unless they are getting them.

jaxxx

In other revolutionary news:
- Water, wet???

[Deleted User]

jackboy wrote: »

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it.

For that to be true, you would need to be able to give examples where it has worked. Not with small numbers, or for short periods, but actual success for a nation over an extended period of time... and to be really valid, it would have to be repeatable with the same measure of success.

Diversity doesn't work. Saying that we need another way to implement it, doesn't change that.

Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Think of the language you used. It's putting all responsibility on to the state for the failure. For one thing, they weren't brought in.. they arrived looking for access.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

So, go back to traditional migration policies.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

Nah. We should be investing in how to help their original countries become stable so that they can return/stay there. Your suggestion ignores the rising rates of population in economically weak nations, and the growing instability of their politics/cultures.... which means greater migration rates over time. Regardless of how migrants are treated here.

The problem is that if we encourage the educated to leave their countries, then there is nothing to prevent those countries from falling apart, which leads to even more demands by migrants to enter western nations. The focus should be on stabilizing the countries with the most amount of migrants, and seeking to encourage them to stay at home, with the aim of improving what they have. As long as they see a way out (by coming into the EU), they'll take the easier option. Shut down that option except for the truly traditional migration (with max numbers allowed over a period of five years), and we'll see those original nations start stabilizing... and if not, it's still truly not our problem.

ILoveYourVibes

Leo is correct

However MIGHT i add ...politics is EVEN MORE WHITE!

cloudatlas

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, but there is, first, an assumption that there are barriers that exist, and second, that they can be removed. The assumption is that they are disadvantaged not by their own lack of education or relevant skills, but that the disadvantages are there because of Irish people or Irish culture.

If we look at Germany, large percentages of those who arrived, couldn't speak German, nor did they have the educational background to make them competitive for work, apart from the lowest paid jobs. So, they placed initiatives to improve language ability and education to bring them up to speed. Three years later, the majority of those who entered the initiative had dropped out or failed to meet the standards. Of course, that meant that the migrants faced some kind of discrimination by teachers (Germany having one of the best educational systems in the world).... rather than acknowledging the failures of the participants.

Regardless of what happens, allowances are made for migrants, because nobody wants to admit it was a mistake to allow so many in, who did't have the education/skills to operate in a first world nation.

Some were. I was here 10 years ago, and was supportive of the Poles arriving... but then, I'd been to Poland and was aware of their culture. I knew that they were fully capable of integrating into Irish culture, or at least, operate parallel with our society. Not so with many African groups (I've been to a variety of African countries too) who have no comparative culture, and no desire to integrate. And no... I'm not worried about Africans taking Irish peoples jobs, since most of them struggle with the language or are lacking in real skills. I'm more bothered by the lack of integration, and the trouble than comes from second gen migrants, which lean towards violence/disruption... which can be seen in many countries in Europe.

I'm too old for this thread because I remember back years ago in the after hours thread when the Poles were the bad immigrants. Now they have integrated well and are moving either back home or staying and being promoted. That leaves a gap for lower skilled workers to step in and do jobs that Irish people don't want and they don't want them, they don't want to pick fruit we've seen that recently, they don't want to be cleaners and they don't want to be baristas.

This report is from two years ago and it takes upwards of 7 years to fully assess changes in society also it takes time to create schemes and as you know Ireland is slow across the board. Yes language skills are the problem not education per se. I don't believe the African population in Ireland is as large as people say on this thread at any rate, certainly in my time living in Dublin I didn't meet many we had one family friend who was from Cameroon who wasn't educated up to his eye balls but learned English and is working in a hotel. His kids are Irish born and doing really well at school one 13 and 9 years old now so I don't know if that is the type of integration people want on this thread but there you go it's happening whether the posters on here like it or not.

The Far right leaders in Germany are always claiming there are a high number of killings but when it's fact checked it is found to be low. The crime rate has fallen in Germany since 1992. The attacks on immigrants have been very high though.

1800_Ladladlad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Leo is correct

However MIGHT i add ...politics is EVEN MORE WHITE!

Would I be correct in saying that you would support quotas based on ethnicity and identity politics?

cloudatlas

Racist attacks in the North are quite bad. Racially motivated crimes in Northern Ireland now exceed those connected to traditional sectarian bigotry.

There are loads of articles. People are harassed by locals until they are terrified to go back to their homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47697618 2019

There have been at least 320 hate crimes against people from a Muslim background in Belfast alone over the past five years.

ArchXStanton

cloudatlas wrote: »

Racist attacks in the North are quite bad. Racially motivated crimes in Northern Ireland now exceed those connected to traditional sectarian bigotry.

There are loads of articles. People are harassed by locals until they are terrified to go back to their homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47697618 2019

There have been at least 320 hate crimes against people from a Muslim background in Belfast alone over the past five years.

If I was a betting man here, I'd say thats from one particular cohort..

Nesta2018

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm too old for this thread because I remember back years ago in the after hours thread when the Poles were the bad immigrants. Now they have integrated well and are moving either back home or staying and being promoted. That leaves a gap for lower skilled workers to step in and do jobs that Irish people don't want and they don't want them, they don't want to pick fruit we've seen that recently, they don't want to be cleaners and they don't want to be baristas.

This report is from two years ago and it takes upwards of 7 years to fully assess changes in society also it takes time to create schemes and as you know Ireland is slow across the board. Yes language skills are the problem not education per se. I don't believe the African population in Ireland is as large as people say on this thread at any rate, certainly in my time living in Dublin I didn't meet many we had one family friend who was from Cameroon who wasn't educated up to his eye balls but learned English and is working in a hotel. His kids are Irish born and doing really well at school one 13 and 9 years old now so I don't know if that is the type of integration people want on this thread but there you go it's happening whether the posters on here like it or not.

The Far right leaders in Germany are always claiming there are a high number of killings but when it's fact checked it is found to be low. The crime rate has fallen in Germany since 1992. The attacks on immigrants have been very high though.

The Africans started arriving in the late 1990s, before the Poles. They have had a head start, and most of them speak English. They are also by default from wealthier backgrounds to have had the means to travel so far. I'm not sure what part of Dublin you lived in - certainly not Balbriggan, Tyrellstown or Blanchardstown.

[Deleted User]

cloudatlas wrote: »

I'm too old for this thread because I remember back years ago in the after hours thread when the Poles were the bad immigrants. Now they have integrated well and are moving either back home or staying and being promoted. That leaves a gap for lower skilled workers to step in and do jobs that Irish people don't want and they don't want them, they don't want to pick fruit we've seen that recently, they don't want to be cleaners and they don't want to be baristas.

If that's the metric for being too old, then, sign me up.

I don't quite see the point here. The Poles don't want such jobs, and what?

This report is from two years ago and it takes upwards of 7 years to fully assess changes in society also it takes time to create schemes and as you know Ireland is slow across the board. Yes language skills are the problem not education per se. I don't believe the African population in Ireland is as large as people say on this thread at any rate, certainly in my time living in Dublin I didn't meet many we had one family friend who was from Cameroon who wasn't educated up to his eye balls but learned English and is working in a hotel. His kids are Irish born and doing really well at school one 13 and 9 years old now so I don't know if that is the type of integration people want on this thread but there you go it's happening whether the posters on here like it or not.

Whereas I'm in Athlone where there is a sizable African community of immigrants, and I do volunteer teaching of English to the "disadvantaged" in the area (migrants, travellers, welfare). The majority of students are African adults and they arrive with very limited ability with the language.

And I didn't express a dismissal of second gen migrants in regards to education. ... so I'm not sure where that's coming from. I referred to first gen migrants failing at education or simply not having the education to compete effectively in a first world nation.

I could go on, but there's little point. You're moving away from what I posted.

Strumms

I’m not into or interested in racism.

I’m into fairness

I’m not into or interested in one person benefiting over another due to race.

That in competition for jobs, the best qualified, most suitable candidate is successful. Always, regardless of the makeup of the team, company.

In sport, the most talented and reliable person is picked to play for the team, to manage the team.

We need rid of people like Leo, off the face of this country’s political landscape. I lament with a passion that FF have such a fûcking useless lame duck Martin in charge I really do.. anybody with any level of intelligence,personality,passion and fairness would have wiped Leo off the stage by now, and set us on a fair road, not one where me and you, people of Ireland can be discriminated against in our own country, for being Irish, treasonous.

ParkRunner

jackboy wrote: »

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it. Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

Why not apply for a visa so rather than asylum like the genuine economic migrants do?

Eric Cartman

We really need to stop importing poor people from anywhere , we should become one of those nations where you have to buy 400k worth of property to remain here. There is absolutely no benefit to us as a society to import anyone else who is going to end up on the dole/social housing list etc...

Strumms

jackboy wrote: »

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it. Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

‘Bringing in’ people from around the world ? I’d dispute that. We are not ‘bringing in’ anyone. People are choosing to come here, arrive here. The procedures on arrival, the regulations, living arrangements, are thoroughly documented, publicly available to the world. I’d agree on ‘economic migrants’.

Anybody taking issue ? It would be like a person buying an airline ticket and then complaining the plane goes too high up in the sky.

heldel00

My sister works in an area of public sector where there would be more black people than usually found in PS.
She was telling me that they have a specific WhatsApp group just for black colleagues. She only found this out after her black friend was removed for "acting too white"!

1800_Ladladlad

heldel00 wrote: »

My sister works in an area of public sector where there would be more black people than usually found in PS.
She was telling me that they have a specific WhatsApp group just for black colleagues. She only found this out after her black friend was removed for "acting too white"!

No no no, you are not supposed to be telling us these things, please keep them to yourself. . . . Whitedontcount

Mr. Karate

heldel00 wrote: »

My sister works in an area of public sector where there would be more black people than usually found in PS.
She was telling me that they have a specific WhatsApp group just for black colleagues. She only found this out after her black friend was removed for "acting too white"!

I think its safe to say that these Black workers would be crying racism if your sister and any White co workers made a White only WhatsApp group.

heldel00

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

No no no, you are not supposed to be telling us these things, please keep them to yourself. . . . Whitedontcount

Do ya know i himmed and hawed about actually posting it at all?
I just couldn't believe it when she told me. I asked her did the whites know and her reply was "sure what could they do about it anyway?"
And for her pal to be kicked out?! He has spent his life being the token "black kid" (plastered all over the college prospectus because they told him they'd like someone black) and then kicked out by other blacks because he is too white.
You couldn't make it up!

biko

heldel00 wrote: »

She only found this out after her black friend was removed for "acting too white"!

Although this may sound crazy it's not uncommon.
Both Drake and Whitney Houston got grief by the black community for being 'too white'.
Actress Tiegan Byrne says she gets laughed at for acting ‘too white’.

Chris_Heilong

A bit of immigration is fine and good for us IMO, I see where Eric Cartman is coming from but feel it is a bit extreme however we have no obligation or guilt to raise the third world out of poverty as we never contributed to its current state. I know why the Government and Businesses want poor workers who are happy to work for peanuts as it means more tax and cheap labor but it pushes wages down for all the Irish and then you hear things like "we do the jobs you Irish are not willing to do" yeah because 'you' have pushed the wage under what it should be.

Strumms

So let’s all be who we are, who we want to be. Let no company ever be pressured to hire anyone other then who they believe are the best and most appropriate candidates . Everybody with a fair and equal opportunity based on your personality, ability, experience and so on... fûck Varadkar and his ilk.. I’m not having this country dragged down the toilet by demographics, by those screaming for success for one demographic of person at the expense of others..

No way should Irish people ever be discriminated against, in Ireland by their Taoiseach and government...don’t forget this.

Mr. Karate

biko wrote: »

Although this may sound crazy it's not uncommon.
Both Drake and Whitney Houston got grief by the black community for being 'too white'.
Actress Tiegan Byrne says she gets laughed at for acting ‘too white’.

The Cosby Show used to be accused of "Not Being Black Enough" [Your guess is as good as mine]

[Deleted User]

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

A bit of immigration is fine and good for us IMO, I see where Eric Cartman is coming from but feel it is a bit extreme however we have no obligation or guilt to raise the third world out of poverty as we never contributed to its current state. I know why the Government and Businesses want poor workers who are happy to work for peanuts as it means more tax and cheap labor but it pushes wages down for all the Irish and then you hear things like "we do the jobs you Irish are not willing to do" yeah because 'you' have pushed the wage under what it should be.

I understand, but it's worth noting that there would continue to be immigration even if we limited it severely. I've traveled and worked in many countries who have harsher immigration policies than Ireland, and you'll still find large amounts of migrants settled. I've lived the last decade in Xi'an, (China), and there's a sizable muslim community who aren't natives of Xinjiang or China itself, but immigrated there within the last twenty years... and China has rather strong/strict migrant policies.(you can also find larger groups of Indians, Africans, other asians, etc along with the thousands of westerners on shorter visas)

As for wanting cheap/poor workers, I've heard it said but it only really applies to countries like Germany who still have a manufacturing industry. Ireland doesn't, and doesn't even have much of an agricultural industry. Businesses want skilled staff, and the low end jobs can still be taken up by students (domestic or foreign)... as it was when I was a teenager.

It's only really some political parties who make the case for cheap labor.. and it's extremely limited thinking since such labor needs other benefits, and also is more likely over time to become angered over a lack of social mobility.

As for raising the 3rd world out of poverty, that has to happen through their own efforts. You can't gift prosperity. However, you can educate and boost their skill base, by encouraging skilled labor from here, to train natives over there. Basically, help them to develop a foundation to grow towards success.

1800_Ladladlad

heldel00 wrote: »

Do ya know i himmed and hawed about actually posting it at all?
I just couldn't believe it when she told me. I asked her did the whites know and her reply was "sure what could they do about it anyway?"
And for her pal to be kicked out?! He has spent his life being the token "black kid" (plastered all over the college prospectus because they told him they'd like someone black) and then kicked out by other blacks because he is too white.
You couldn't make it up!

Not unusual as similar situations like this has happened around me. One girl who was ousted from her group of "black friends" for simply going to out with "whities" a lot. So so narrow-minded.

Annasopra

Strumms wrote: »

I’m not into or interested in racism.

I’m into fairness

I’m not into or interested in one person benefiting over another due to race.

That in competition for jobs, the best qualified, most suitable candidate is successful. Always, regardless of the makeup of the team, company.

In sport, the most talented and reliable person is picked to play for the team, to manage the team.

We need rid of people like Leo, off the face of this country’s political landscape. I lament with a passion that FF have such a fûcking useless lame duck Martin in charge I really do.. anybody with any level of intelligence,personality,passion and fairness would have wiped Leo off the stage by now, and set us on a fair road, not one where me and you, people of Ireland can be discriminated against in our own country, for being Irish, treasonous.

Why do you keep asserting that Irish people can omly be white?

enricoh

cloudatlas wrote: »

Why don't stakeholders who openly criticise the government such as Fr Peter McVerry of the Peter McVerry Trust homeless charity never accuse migrants of causing or exacerbating homelessness in Ireland. You'd think he would have mentioned it by now.

Yeah you think he would. It suits him a lot better to have rte on speed dial for an interview berating the government- for not building enough freebie houses in Dublin and all the while getting more money thrown at his and the countless other homeless industry charities!

ArchXStanton

Anyone that doesn't think that this is wrong or something sinister about it would want their heads examined

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbIc1LZqIAw

Wibbs

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why do you keep asserting that Irish people can omly be white?

True, however if you look at any other "multicultural" European nations, even after many generations the non native populations specifically those who don't look "local" are never quite local enough. Sure if individuals do well they're lauded to some degree, but their background demographic not nearly so much. Hence we have social problems and occasional actual unrest like we see currently in the UK many generations in.

But the multiculturalists refuse to acknowledge history and basic human nature. Then again that's a thread that runs strongly through the so called "left" and progressives. They imagine a world of human blank slates that top down cultural pressures can shift, but they don't and they can't. That's a bitter pill they won't swallow.

Now to be fair it's an optimistic view of humanity and that's nicer than a pessimistic view, but it doesn't make it a reality. So called "melting pots" of different ethnicities don't last too long without unrest, without a them and us coming into it. It doesn't have to be along "race" lines either. This island has seen and still sees a social them and us between Planters and Native, many centuries on. And they're the same "race", same colour. And you think introducing people who look quite different and in some demographics quite different culturally and expect that to magically work? If so I have some magic beans you may be interested in.

Forget non natives for a second. Today we have a social schism and discrimination and social unrest and distrust between Travellers and Settled Irish. Same "race" down to the bones. And yet here we are.

It's lovely wishful thinking but history and current events prove it to be a naive bloody nonsense. Again please list European multicultural nations without strife along ethnic/racial lines. Please list European multicultural nations where Black Africans aren't the lowest demographic on the social scale. And you want to import that stupidity here? In the naive hope that somehow this time we'll get it right? We won't and we're already seeing the rise of the unrest and ghettoisation in this country after less than two decades of this multicultural bollocks being imported.

Hell a large part of why we got it imported was because of the Good Friday, please God let the ethnic Troubles end, born in Ireland makes you Irish stuff, which had a long queue of non EU "refugees" from Nigeria and the like with their waters breaking on the pier at Rosslare. Of course Ireland having a boom at the time helped... Not a lot of "refugees" coming here in the doldrums of the 80's. Funny that.