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Child Item

Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

Akesh

Imagine the shock and horror in Leinster House when it was discovered that a country, where over 91% of the population are white, has a civil service that is 'very white'. To correct this error, he would like to use targets for the civil service to hire more minorities.

These kinds of targets are illogical and in no way should a public servant be hired on the basis of their skin colour or race but this is what he wants to introduce.

Is this just another reactionary policy in reaction to the death of George Floyd or does it have merit? Obviously recruiters in the civil service are racists otherwise there would be no need for such a policy/target.

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ArchXStanton

cloudatlas wrote: »

Racist attacks in the North are quite bad. Racially motivated crimes in Northern Ireland now exceed those connected to traditional sectarian bigotry.

There are loads of articles. People are harassed by locals until they are terrified to go back to their homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47697618 2019

There have been at least 320 hate crimes against people from a Muslim background in Belfast alone over the past five years.

If I was a betting man here, I'd say thats from one particular cohort..

cloudatlas

Racist attacks in the North are quite bad. Racially motivated crimes in Northern Ireland now exceed those connected to traditional sectarian bigotry.

There are loads of articles. People are harassed by locals until they are terrified to go back to their homes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47697618 2019

There have been at least 320 hate crimes against people from a Muslim background in Belfast alone over the past five years.

1800_Ladladlad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Leo is correct

However MIGHT i add ...politics is EVEN MORE WHITE!

Would I be correct in saying that you would support quotas based on ethnicity and identity politics?

cloudatlas

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, but there is, first, an assumption that there are barriers that exist, and second, that they can be removed. The assumption is that they are disadvantaged not by their own lack of education or relevant skills, but that the disadvantages are there because of Irish people or Irish culture.

If we look at Germany, large percentages of those who arrived, couldn't speak German, nor did they have the educational background to make them competitive for work, apart from the lowest paid jobs. So, they placed initiatives to improve language ability and education to bring them up to speed. Three years later, the majority of those who entered the initiative had dropped out or failed to meet the standards. Of course, that meant that the migrants faced some kind of discrimination by teachers (Germany having one of the best educational systems in the world).... rather than acknowledging the failures of the participants.

Regardless of what happens, allowances are made for migrants, because nobody wants to admit it was a mistake to allow so many in, who did't have the education/skills to operate in a first world nation.

Some were. I was here 10 years ago, and was supportive of the Poles arriving... but then, I'd been to Poland and was aware of their culture. I knew that they were fully capable of integrating into Irish culture, or at least, operate parallel with our society. Not so with many African groups (I've been to a variety of African countries too) who have no comparative culture, and no desire to integrate. And no... I'm not worried about Africans taking Irish peoples jobs, since most of them struggle with the language or are lacking in real skills. I'm more bothered by the lack of integration, and the trouble than comes from second gen migrants, which lean towards violence/disruption... which can be seen in many countries in Europe.

I'm too old for this thread because I remember back years ago in the after hours thread when the Poles were the bad immigrants. Now they have integrated well and are moving either back home or staying and being promoted. That leaves a gap for lower skilled workers to step in and do jobs that Irish people don't want and they don't want them, they don't want to pick fruit we've seen that recently, they don't want to be cleaners and they don't want to be baristas.

This report is from two years ago and it takes upwards of 7 years to fully assess changes in society also it takes time to create schemes and as you know Ireland is slow across the board. Yes language skills are the problem not education per se. I don't believe the African population in Ireland is as large as people say on this thread at any rate, certainly in my time living in Dublin I didn't meet many we had one family friend who was from Cameroon who wasn't educated up to his eye balls but learned English and is working in a hotel. His kids are Irish born and doing really well at school one 13 and 9 years old now so I don't know if that is the type of integration people want on this thread but there you go it's happening whether the posters on here like it or not.

The Far right leaders in Germany are always claiming there are a high number of killings but when it's fact checked it is found to be low. The crime rate has fallen in Germany since 1992. The attacks on immigrants have been very high though.

ILoveYourVibes

Leo is correct

However MIGHT i add ...politics is EVEN MORE WHITE!

[Deleted User]

jackboy wrote: »

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it.

For that to be true, you would need to be able to give examples where it has worked. Not with small numbers, or for short periods, but actual success for a nation over an extended period of time... and to be really valid, it would have to be repeatable with the same measure of success.

Diversity doesn't work. Saying that we need another way to implement it, doesn't change that.

Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Think of the language you used. It's putting all responsibility on to the state for the failure. For one thing, they weren't brought in.. they arrived looking for access.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

So, go back to traditional migration policies.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

Nah. We should be investing in how to help their original countries become stable so that they can return/stay there. Your suggestion ignores the rising rates of population in economically weak nations, and the growing instability of their politics/cultures.... which means greater migration rates over time. Regardless of how migrants are treated here.

The problem is that if we encourage the educated to leave their countries, then there is nothing to prevent those countries from falling apart, which leads to even more demands by migrants to enter western nations. The focus should be on stabilizing the countries with the most amount of migrants, and seeking to encourage them to stay at home, with the aim of improving what they have. As long as they see a way out (by coming into the EU), they'll take the easier option. Shut down that option except for the truly traditional migration (with max numbers allowed over a period of five years), and we'll see those original nations start stabilizing... and if not, it's still truly not our problem.

jaxxx

In other revolutionary news:
- Water, wet???

Thinkingaboutit

In some places mostly white, the solution some have is to have a low paid public service, mainly ethnic because only the desperate would work there. He's saying, in a roundabout way, that he wants to cut wages and salaries there. If someone doesn't the civil service for some reason, Leo Varadkar is only concerned with enriching his friends and fooling people into voting for his party. I doubt his pals like high salaries of any sort, unless they are getting them.

growleaves

Irish people suffered some minor racism but to be fair many were treated so much worse at home that they volutarily emigrated to London and other English cities.

I disagree. Many fled economically moribund Irish towns to go to UK centres of commercialism like London. That doesn't mean they received better treatment as a person in a UK metropolis than in their own village where they grew up.

jackboy

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Yeah, diversity never works out. It’s a failed experiment.

Diversity does work, just not the way we do it. Bringing in poor people from around the world and keeping them in poverty in direct provision centres for long periods of time obviously is a bad idea. Also, most of these are economic migrants, not refugees. Keeping economic migrants in poverty will always cause issues.

Taking in educated foreigners with their families to take up Job positions is a positive policy and this sort of diversity will cause little of any issues.

We need to stop putting illegal economic migrants into direct provision. Any illegal migrant that has already passed through a safe country should be automatically instantly deported.

The world is full of camps with genuine refugees. We should decide how many to take and then go to the camps to select those to come to Ireland. We should then organise transport of these to Ireland, put them into proper accommodation and help them get work or education. They should get decent economic support until they can support themselves.

ArchXStanton

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Yeah, diversity never works out. It’s a failed experiment.

Which makes you wonder why they still continue with it, we had a chance here, unfortunately we're starting to see the seeds we've sown start to sprout.

[Deleted User]

cloudatlas wrote: »

What’s your point? So the highest number of immigrants on social welfare are from Africa, migrants still make up a small percentage of those on social welfare overall!

The report said there should be more done to remove barriers and help them get work, which is good. The reasons why they are disadvantaged should be examined.

Yes, but there is, first, an assumption that there are barriers that exist, and second, that they can be removed. The assumption is that they are disadvantaged not by their own lack of education or relevant skills, but that the disadvantages are there because of Irish people or Irish culture.

If we look at Germany, large percentages of those who arrived, couldn't speak German, nor did they have the educational background to make them competitive for work, apart from the lowest paid jobs. So, they placed initiatives to improve language ability and education to bring them up to speed. Three years later, the majority of those who entered the initiative had dropped out or failed to meet the standards. Of course, that meant that the migrants faced some kind of discrimination by teachers (Germany having one of the best educational systems in the world).... rather than acknowledging the failures of the participants.

Regardless of what happens, allowances are made for migrants, because nobody wants to admit it was a mistake to allow so many in, who did't have the education/skills to operate in a first world nation.

10 years ago on after hours people were going on about the Poles coming in and taking the jobs and now they are okay we’ve moved on.... who is next....

Some were. I was here 10 years ago, and was supportive of the Poles arriving... but then, I'd been to Poland and was aware of their culture. I knew that they were fully capable of integrating into Irish culture, or at least, operate parallel with our society. Not so with many African groups (I've been to a variety of African countries too) who have no comparative culture, and no desire to integrate. And no... I'm not worried about Africans taking Irish peoples jobs, since most of them struggle with the language or are lacking in real skills. I'm more bothered by the lack of integration, and the trouble than comes from second gen migrants, which lean towards violence/disruption... which can be seen in many countries in Europe.

jay0109

Shakey_jake wrote: »

Does anyone know how all the Africans ended up in Balbriggan, just curious?

Because there's a lot of Fingal's social housing stock up there

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

The uncomfortable trend and fact is that in any "multicultural" society those of African background tend to pool at the bottom, those of Asian background more at the top and those of European background in the middle.

Uncomfortable? Try unmentionable. Yet until that particular nettle is grasped we'll see no honesty in any discussion on the subject.

Wibbs

cloudatlas wrote: »

What’s your point? So the highest number of immigrants on social welfare are from Africa, migrants still make up a small percentage of those on social welfare overall!

The report said there should be more done to remove barriers and help them get work, which is good. The reasons why they are disadvantaged should be examined.

And that has been tried in every single European nation that has run this social stupid experiment and for decades with it and which demographics are still found to cluster around the bottom of the social ladder and have the most social problems? Oh wait... It's all fine and dandy in theory, but when the rubber meets the road not so much. The uncomfortable trend and fact is that in any "multicultural" society those of African background tend to pool at the bottom, those of Asian background more at the top and those of European background in the middle. In the US, which as we all know tends towards pretty bloody bad race relations to the point of blind racism Asian Americans on average earn more than European Americans. It's hardly positive discrimination at play.

Shakey_jake wrote: »

Does anyone know how all the Africans ended up in Balbriggan, just curious?

People of similar backgrounds and culture naturally tend to hang out and live together. Human nature. It's why you see Chinatown's and Little Italy's in societies with immigrant populations above a certain population threshold. In London Kilburn was an Irish area. Hell go on holiday to the usual sun and sand resorts in Europe and you see Irish people heading inexorably to Irish pubs for their Irish breakfasts. This trend is a near given and no amount of government will change that, though as usual the Irish authorities didn't even try to mitigate it.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

punisher5112 wrote: »

Suppose look at the UK our nearest neighbour, look how diversity has worked out, bomb detections, armed/heavily armed police, crash barriers and more added even along the London bridge etc.....

Dangerous world we live in... But sure it's ok let them all in.... Can't do any harm

Sure Osama bin fluckdins brother lives here....

Yeah, diversity never works out. It’s a failed experiment.

punisher5112

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Iv actually noticed the same in my private sector job.
I think the kids of people who came here at the beginning of the Celtic tiger (late 90's, 00's) are starting to finish college, they'll work their way up the ladder in time like the rest of us.

And too fooking right, what right do they have we don't to move up normally with experience and proof to show they're suitable

punisher5112

Suppose look at the UK our nearest neighbour, look how diversity has worked out, bomb detections, armed/heavily armed police, crash barriers and more added even along the London bridge etc.....

Dangerous world we live in... But sure it's ok let them all in.... Can't do any harm

Sure Osama bin fluckdins brother lives here....

[Deleted User]

fergus1001 wrote: »

as a civil servant I'd say its diverse at the lower end and white at the top end

Iv actually noticed the same in my private sector job.
I think the kids of people who came here at the beginning of the Celtic tiger (late 90's, 00's) are starting to finish college, they'll work their way up the ladder in time like the rest of us.

punisher5112

cloudatlas wrote: »

Do you want to play a game it’s called ‘foreigners have ruined my life’
If there are a large number of foreigners on the social it’s because they’re lazy and don’t want to work but if there are not many on the social then it’s because they’re bastards who are taking the jobs from Irish people. It’s a one player game.

That's disgusting and actually beyond childish....

I've been yellowed and red carded for less.

Such a disgusting attitude

fergus1001

as a civil servant I'd say its diverse at the lower end and white at the top end

cloudatlas

punisher5112 wrote: »

Not a great argument really is it...

Same as people saying we are doing well with covid but when you put it per head over a million we aren't doing great at all.

If someone wants to join our island, no issues there but you must come here to work and contribute.... A lot actually don't....

Do you want to play a game it’s called ‘foreigners have ruined my life’
If there are a large number of foreigners on the social it’s because they’re lazy and don’t want to work but if there are not many on the social then it’s because they’re bastards who are taking the jobs from Irish people. It’s a one player game.

Geuze

da_miser wrote: »

What is the current percentage of African immigrants on welfare in Ireland?

It should be 0%.

No illegal immigrant should get past the port of entry.

Shakey_jake

Does anyone know how all the Africans ended up in Balbriggan, just curious?

punisher5112

cloudatlas wrote: »

What’s your point? So the highest number of immigrants on social welfare are from Africa, migrants still make up a small percentage of those on social welfare overall!

The report said there should be more done to remove barriers and help them get work, which is good. The reasons why they are disadvantaged should be examined.

Also on your point about education:

‘In terms of third-level education among working-age people, most groups performed better than the Irish (37pc). Western Europeans were most likely to have their degree (74pc), while eastern Europeans (35pc) were the least likely.’

Better educated than Irish people.

10 years ago on after hours people were going on about the Poles coming in and taking the jobs and now they are okay we’ve moved on.... who is next....

Not a great argument really is it...

Same as people saying we are doing well with covid but when you put it per head over a million we aren't doing great at all.

If someone wants to join our island, no issues there but you must come here to work and contribute.... A lot actually don't....

cloudatlas

da_miser wrote: »

What is the current percentage of African immigrants on welfare in Ireland?
Should be easy for you to post here as it was in the news a few months back, i wont hold my breath waiting.

What’s your point? So the highest number of immigrants on social welfare are from Africa, migrants still make up a small percentage of those on social welfare overall!

The report said there should be more done to remove barriers and help them get work, which is good. The reasons why they are disadvantaged should be examined.

Also on your point about education:

‘In terms of third-level education among working-age people, most groups performed better than the Irish (37pc). Western Europeans were most likely to have their degree (74pc), while eastern Europeans (35pc) were the least likely.’

Better educated than Irish people.

10 years ago on after hours people were going on about the Poles coming in and taking the jobs and now they are okay we’ve moved on.... who is next....

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

da_miser wrote: »

64%
Stunning & Brave, dare i say woke.

64% of Africans on welfare.

Of course with the current trend of adopting American politics here it’ll be all whiteys fault, racism etc.

gypsy79

da_miser wrote: »

64%
Stunning & Brave, dare i say woke.

sorry i am on your side btw

just cujrious

da_miser

gypsy79 wrote: »

Post it

I would like to know

64%
Stunning & Brave, dare i say woke.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

gretta123 wrote: »

What I don’t get the removing statues thing
We have many monuments to famous Men who helped us get independence
I respect these men but they are killers some were worse then others
Take dan Breen - a man whose only regret was he did not kill more
Is he to re written out of our history?
How about Liam lynch and Michael Collins and de Valera.
Many ira men went to Germany looking for help to defeat the British
Should we write roger casement out of our history

I think anyone who thinks we need to rip down statues our ancestors put up for their good reasons and who also believe the Irish civil service is too white then they must have mental issues Of some type. I suspect a self hatred that includes self harm maybe drug or alcohol issues

It all seems implausible until you remember who came out and said “the public service is very white”.... the very same fella who wanted to honour the Black and Tans so don’t be shocked when he’s ok with the tearing down of said statues.

He doesn’t give a flying shíte about the Irish.