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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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Black_Knight

Kramer wrote: »

Well, no. Not quite.
They have announced they are to add chargers...........

They have form here for making announcements.............ask Unkel....... :pac:.

Going by their recent AC charge point policy, they'll probably replace 2x 50kW DC chargers with one new 150kW charger (throttled to 95kW - grid constraints) & a 2kW Type 2 AC connector.

Type 1 i'd say

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Well, no. Not quite.

Can you see the picture in the post, you can literally see two chargers at one site in the picture.

They have form here for making announcements

How far in to the implementation of the plan in the first post are people going to need before they stop the inane complaints. The only indicated action that is now outstanding is the charging hubs, which will require network works and planning permission.

zg3409

I see on Facebook someone says these might be delta units that have a limit of 100kW CCS and 63kW on ChaDeMo but can do both at the same time, assuming you can get 2 cars parked and reach. Also 43kW AC seems to be an included option.

Laghy for example seems to have a spot for an additional charger so hopefully they will leave the old one and add this. That means 3+ cars can charge at once. Not perfect but getting there. Hopefully it won't take years to roll out. If kells gets ability to charge 3 cars at once I may be taking the direct route from Dublin to Donegal rather than going via Monahan for double charger backup.

The hubs need planning permission yes, but we saw graphics of layout more than 18 months ago and no sign of even one planning application gone in.

liamog

We know it's a Delta UFC 6, it's the same model as I spotted on the test location a couple of days ago. Here's the brochure for the model.

Brochure

I agree we'd love to see some action on the hubs, but given pretty much every element of the announced programme has now seen action, perhaps people can dial back the cynicism.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

How far in to the implementation of the plan in the first post are people going to need before they stop the inane complaints.

Until they actually deliver something meaningful, from some of the €10 million plus in tax they received recently, tax I contributed to (grudgingly, I'll admit).

Glacial is how I'd describe their progress - it's abysmal given they are now charging for the service.

liamog wrote: »

I agree we'd love to see some action on the hubs, but given pretty much every element of the announced programme has now seen action, perhaps people can dial back the cynicism.

I only do cynicism I'm afraid - sure isn't that what 'tinternet is for

...don't think liamog's browser shows smileys....

Black_Knight

The AGM video suggests the 150kW chargers can charge 2 cars at 75kW each, or 1 at 150kW.

unkel

Christ. More 1 car chargers on the way.

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

The AGM video suggests the 150kW chargers can charge 2 cars at 75kW each, or 1 at 150kW.

What if I'm charging at say 90kW and another car plugs in?
Do I taper? Do they get nothing?

ELM327

zg3409 wrote: »

I see on Facebook someone says these might be delta units that have a limit of 100kW CCS and 63kW on ChaDeMo but can do both at the same time, assuming you can get 2 cars parked and reach. Also 43kW AC seems to be an included option.

Laghy for example seems to have a spot for an additional charger so hopefully they will leave the old one and add this. That means 3+ cars can charge at once. Not perfect but getting there. Hopefully it won't take years to roll out. If kells gets ability to charge 3 cars at once I may be taking the direct route from Dublin to Donegal rather than going via Monahan for double charger backup.

The hubs need planning permission yes, but we saw graphics of layout more than 18 months ago and no sign of even one planning application gone in.

Lol

Chademo is limited to 45-50kW and will never progress further.
We should be just focusing on 350kW capable CCS chargers for future proofing.

slave1

ELM327 wrote: »

Lol

Chademo is limited to 45-50kW and will never progress further.

Chademo can go to 100kW currently with next gen testing at 500kW

Zenith74

ELM327 wrote: »

What if I'm charging at say 90kW and another car plugs in?
Do I taper? Do they get nothing?

From the manual for the unit -
The standard system is equipped with a CCS plug for up to 150 kW, a CHAdeMO plug for up to 63 kW, a type 2 AC plug for up to 43 kW and a type 2 AC socket for up to 22 kW on the front....
The dynamic power distribution of the Ultra-Fast Charger supplies the first charging vehicle with the entire available DC power (up to 150 kW). As soon as several vehicles are connected, the power is automatically and dynamically distributed between all vehicles. All Ultra-Fast Charger models can charge up to four electric cars in parallel and offer up to six charging points.

Hard to see which option they went for in the eCars photo, certainly CCS and Chademo but I don't see a cable there for the AC43 plug and it's hard to tell through the wrapping but I don't see the AC socket either.

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Chademo can go to 100kW currently with next gen testing at 500kW

What car can take that?
Anything?
The only EV claiming >50kW on chademo is the leaf 62 and thats going to rapidgate anyway. I've never seen any chademo station advertised as, or in the act of delivering, greater than 50kW.

Actually, that's slightly incorrect, the current ecars chargers are actually specced for 63kW at 500V/125a but there is no car that can take that.

zg3409

Zenith74 wrote: »

I don't see a cable there for the AC43 plug and it's hard to tell through the wrapping but I don't see the AC socket either.

If you look on esb Ecars app at east wall road esb test site, they show CCS chademo and AC 43 in addition to 22kW AC. 4 outlets. As this is a test site it might not be same spec as final units, but looks like this is the option they went for. It says it is Delta.

Look near the east link bridge/east wall road/Fairview park
https://www.esb.ie/ecars/charge-point-map

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

What if I'm charging at say 90kW and another car plugs in?
Do I taper? Do they get nothing?

Interesting question. Let's say the first car is charging at the full 150kW. Not that far fetched. The best selling EV in the world can do that.

Will that get cut in half when another car hooks up? If so that's asking for trouble / aggression. Almost as bad as a Leaf cutting off someone charging on CCS on the old EFACEc triple head (single car) charge points

Will the second car get nothing? That means that brand new expensive charge point is in fact another single car charge point like the ESB was installing in the era before Jesus was born

ELM327

zg3409 wrote: »

If you look on esb Ecars app at east wall road esb test site, they show CCS chademo and AC 43 in addition to 22kW AC. 4 outlets. As this is a test site it might not be same spec as final units, but looks like this is the option they went for. It says it is Delta.

Look near the east link bridge/east wall road/Fairview park
https://www.esb.ie/ecars/charge-point-map

So.. still only one DC charging car per unit? ffs

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Interesting question. Let's say the first car is charging at the full 150kW. Not that far fetched. The best selling EV in the world can do that.

Will that get cut in half when another car hooks up? If so that's asking for trouble / aggression. Almost as bad as a Leaf cutting off someone charging on CCS on the old EFACEc triple head (single car) charge points

Will the second car get nothing? That means that brand new expensive charge point is in fact another single car charge point like the ESB was installing in the era before Jesus was born

If it tapers to 75 + 75 that's fine.
But if the 75 is required regardless (ie if the car is a leaf or an outlander) and they take like 30-40kW and it still limits the other car hard coded to 75 then that's crap.

If it's actively managed like Tesla on V1+V2 Suc, IE it's 120kW per "plug" but the max per two "plugs" is 150kW but it's instant, ie if I'm drawing 95kW there is 55kW available at plug 2 and so on as my charge tapers, the amount of energy for plug 2 increases?

The amount of cars on the road that can pull over 80kW is still quite small. You've only got really, Tesla, Etron and (for 2 minutes) e208?

Zenith74

Guys if you scroll up 5 posts I quoted from the datasheet for these chargers, answering what happens when another car plugs in.

"The dynamic power distribution of the Ultra-Fast Charger supplies the first charging vehicle with the entire available DC power (up to 150 kW). As soon as several vehicles are connected, the power is automatically and dynamically distributed between all vehicles. All Ultra-Fast Charger models can charge up to four electric cars in parallel and offer up to six charging points."

AndyBoBandy

Zenith74 wrote: »

Guys if you scroll up 5 posts I quoted from the datasheet for these chargers, answering what happens when another car plugs in.

"The dynamic power distribution of the Ultra-Fast Charger supplies the first charging vehicle with the entire available DC power (up to 150 kW). As soon as several vehicles are connected, the power is automatically and dynamically distributed between all vehicles. All Ultra-Fast Charger models can charge up to four electric cars in parallel and offer up to six charging points."

So worst case, you could have 4 cars pulling;

22kWh AC - Model S Dual Charger
22kWh AC - Zoe
50kWh Chademo - Leaf
56kWh CCS

ELM327

That's crap.
Absolute crap.

So if I'm getting >100kW on CCS and someone else plugs in my power is reduced. BS.

kanuseeme

Same happens with superchargers? if some one plugs in beside you its down to 75kW?

ELM327

kanuseeme wrote: »

Same happens with superchargers? if some one plugs in beside you its down to 75kW?

Nope!

V3 - no power sharing
V2 - 120kW is availble to the first car, and 30kW to the second. This is dynamic, and if the first car is drawing less than 120kW then more and more becomes available to the second. The power to the first car is never reduced below what the max the car can take is.

If I'm charging in stall 1a at castlebellingham drawing 120kW, this is not impacted if someone plugs in to 1b.

kanuseeme

With V2 in Ireland they are in fact 150 kW chargers?, The only problem then is for cars no 5,6 etc, another problem I see with superchargers is going to be free loaders, especially with prices of 2nd hand getting closer to 20 k in the years to come.

ELM327

kanuseeme wrote: »

With V2 in Ireland they are in fact 150 kW chargers?, The only problem then is for cars no 5,6 etc, another problem I see with superchargers is going to be free loaders, especially with prices of 2nd hand getting closer to 20 k in the years to come.

Yes, 150kW per pair of stalls.
Very few models have free supercharging. Only used S/X purchased outside of Tesla now have it.

zg3409

And

So this list 44kW and 150kW sites.
I think 150kW sites will have 1 x 50kW old charger and 1 x 150kW charger with 4 connections (1 chademo , 1 CCS)

Also rough location for first charging hub designated as 4 50kW+ chargers on one site M7 Monasterevin. Hopefully all will be 150kW. The existing 50kW site nearby may or may not be used. J14 Mayfield

All info stolen from Irish EV owners association AGM slides from their website.

unkel

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

So worst case, you could have 4 cars pulling;

22kWh AC - Model S Dual Charger
22kWh AC - Zoe
50kWh Chademo - Leaf
56kWh CCS

At least that is 4 cars charging at the same time. Better than what we have now in terms of public sector installed and operated charging. But a half-arsed way to go about installing infrastructure for the future.

Black_Knight

kanuseeme wrote: »

With V2 in Ireland they are in fact 150 kW chargers?, The only problem then is for cars no 5,6 etc, another problem I see with superchargers is going to be free loaders, especially with prices of 2nd hand getting closer to 20 k in the years to come.

What cars 5 and 6? Maybe Dublin has its own bubble, but I've never seen more than 2 cars at a charge point since the fees were introduced.

2-4 cars charging at once it's a damn sight better than 1-2. And 2 CCS points at a site means redundancy. If the chademo cars are limited to 50kW then there's loads left over for CCS cars with higher capability.

slave1

zg3409 wrote: »

There's a fast charger in Athlone already with a double posted 22kW AC charger next to it, two other double posted 22kW chargers in the town....

Does this mean they will take out the three 22kW chargers and replace all with those manky 43/2kW doubles?

unkel

Interesting BTW that Ionity calls their 350kW (for one car) charge points "high-speed" while the ESB calls their 150kW (shared per 2 cars) charge points "Ultra-Fast"

says it all really...

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

There's a fast charger in Athlone already with a double posted 22kW AC charger next to it, two other double posted 22kW chargers in the town....

Does this mean they will take out the three 22kW chargers and replace all with those manky 43/2kW doubles?

Hopefully they leave the destination chargers in the town and replace the 22kW charger at KFC with the 44kW new style one, giving redundancy.

Although, athlone is pretty well served with the circle k Ionity nearby.

MJohnston

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

So worst case, you could have 4 cars pulling;

22kWh AC - Model S Dual Charger
22kWh AC - Zoe
50kWh Chademo - Leaf
56kWh CCS

This will never happen - the ESB stations are so badly designed and positioned that it’s hard to get two cars physically connected at once. There’s zero chance 4 cars will be able to.