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Child Item

Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

Akesh

Imagine the shock and horror in Leinster House when it was discovered that a country, where over 91% of the population are white, has a civil service that is 'very white'. To correct this error, he would like to use targets for the civil service to hire more minorities.

These kinds of targets are illogical and in no way should a public servant be hired on the basis of their skin colour or race but this is what he wants to introduce.

Is this just another reactionary policy in reaction to the death of George Floyd or does it have merit? Obviously recruiters in the civil service are racists otherwise there would be no need for such a policy/target.

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is_that_so

Flickerfusion wrote: »

I think we have to view this with a bit of balance, particularly as Ireland’s is becoming more diverse. If there are barriers to entry. or some kind of issue with recruiting people then we need to look at it.

If it’s just a case of Ireland becoming more diverse quite rapidly and people of different backgrounds are only starting to appear in those kinds of organisations, then it could simply be a time lag.

However, it’s still important to monitor it and ensure we don’t have issues like that.

I know one of the things that surprises me quite a bit is that we don’t have Polish as a signifiant subject in schools. There’s a big population of Polish speakers here and surely some of them must have degrees in Polish and other subjects and could be recruited into teaching?

I mean it’s as significant a language as say Italian, yet I still just see Irish schools offering primarily French and some German and Spanish perhaps.

There have to be other language groups out there too, who should be brought into the education system. It’s an opportunity for the whole country in terms of multilingualism and having native speaker teachers.

I just can’t understand why we aren’t seeing more diversity or language amongst teachers.

You might rarely encounter a native French or German speaker in schools here, but you would really expect a lot more of it at this stage, which would seem to indicate there are significant barriers be they cultural or formal that are resulting in people not considering going into teaching. .

You have to look at that kind of thing across the whole public sector. If you don’t you can inadvertently end up with a whole public sector that doesn’t look much like the population it serves.

Also the Irish language barrier is not relevant, as if you’ve been through the school system here, you’ve learn it.

We could just look at how we could make people feel they could and should consider these careers.

Their careers both here and abroad will be more greatly advanced by high levels of English. 780 people took Polish as a LC exam in 2019 v over 22,000 doing French. Even German, the next biggest, is over 10 times this total. The biggest problem of all is the cost of employing teachers for such tiny numbers.

Strumms

is_that_so wrote: »

Their careers both here and abroad will be more greatly advanced by high levels of English. 780 people took Polish as a LC exam in 2019 v over 22,000 doing French. Even German, the next biggest, is over 10 times this total. The biggest problem of all is the cost of employing teachers for such tiny numbers.

Completely, it’s a batshît crazy suggestion.

Rockbeast2

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Firstly, that was a racist comment by Leo yesterday. He should be called out on it. He is clearly damaged in some way.

Regarding the racial make up of the civil service, WTF does he expect? We are a majority white country in a majority white part of the world. Our "whiteness" is not some act of racism. It is evolution based on environmental advantages to being white in northern climates.

Minorities have only become prevalent in the last 20 years, 25 at a push. Many of these original adults immigrants were never going to work in the civil service or many other professions because of the language/skills/education barriers.

Their kids now should have the opportunity to pursue the career they want if they so choose. Guess what? They do. They have been provided with the same free access to primary, secondary, and tertiary education as any other child of the state.

If they choose not to gravitate towards jobs in the civil service, then that is not evidence of Irish racism. This issue is a cultural one, NOT a racism one. If a black youth is raised by a gang in the absence of a father figure and aspires only to be a [drill/rap] musician or play sport, and rejects an academic education, how is his lack of progress to a job in the civil service a reflection of Irish racism? It simply is not.

I understand the need for black role models outside of music and sport, but affirmative action will cause A LOT of strife over the medium term unless people have earned the necessary skills to deserve their position on merit.

This is all about education and ambition and the importance a culture places on it IMO.

Brendog

Class MayDresser wrote: »

Is there a link to what he actually said or will I wait til his reaffirmation later on on his twitter?

Is there a link? Was this in a public address or over twitter?

Eric Cartman

So Gay marriage, free abortions for all, Dublin has become a haven for cyclists, dole Christmas bonus and now anti white racist quotas.

no tax cuts, no welfare cheat finders, no usc cuts.

I don't want to hear one more person suggest that Leo is even 1 degree to the right of centre, he's turned FG into labour with some pbp flavours in there.

Ireland never colonised anybody, we have nothing to apologise or make up for. Ireland for the Irish, who in the vast majority of cases are pasty white and happy about it.

Girly Gal

Flickerfusion wrote: »

I think we have to view this with a bit of balance, particularly as Ireland’s is becoming more diverse. If there are barriers to entry. or some kind of issue with recruiting people then we need to look at it.

If it’s just a case of Ireland becoming more diverse quite rapidly and people of different backgrounds are only starting to appear in those kinds of organisations, then it could simply be a time lag.

However, it’s still important to monitor it and ensure we don’t have issues like that.

I know one of the things that surprises me quite a bit is that we don’t have Polish as a signifiant subject in schools. There’s a big population of Polish speakers here and surely some of them must have degrees in Polish and other subjects and could be recruited into teaching?

I mean it’s as significant a language as say Italian, yet I still just see Irish schools offering primarily French and some German and Spanish perhaps.

There have to be other language groups out there too, who should be brought into the education system. It’s an opportunity for the whole country in terms of multilingualism and having native speaker teachers.

I just can’t understand why we aren’t seeing more diversity or language amongst teachers.

You might rarely encounter a native French or German speaker in schools here, but you would really expect a lot more of it at this stage, which would seem to indicate there are significant barriers be they cultural or formal that are resulting in people not considering going into teaching. .

You have to look at that kind of thing across the whole public sector. If you don’t you can inadvertently end up with a whole public sector that doesn’t look much like the population it serves.

Also the Irish language barrier is not relevant, as if you’ve been through the school system here, you’ve learn it.

We could just look at how we could make people feel they could and should consider these careers.

Polish is not a widely used language outside of Poland, the other languages are more widely used globally and in business

gibsmedat

Polish people for the most part are grafters,they arent going to be taking up jobs in the civil service in any great numbers. Most of them i know, here 10+ years still regard themselves as guests in Ireland.

[Deleted User]

Flickerfusion wrote: »

I think we have to view this with a bit of balance, particularly as Ireland’s is becoming more diverse. If there are barriers to entry. or some kind of issue with recruiting people then we need to look at it.

We have laws to protect the rights of the individual. Anyone can claim if they feel that they've been discriminated against. We started better than other countries, in that we had laws in place before most minority groups arrived.

Also the Irish language barrier is not relevant, as if you’ve been through the school system here, you’ve learn it.

I don't care. It's our national language and we should be learning it. I don't buy into this dislike of Irish nationalism... taking pride in aspects that are unique to our people. Internationally, we are an absolute joke for not being able to speak our own language. Instead, the language should be taught as a language.. not a subject.

We could just look at how we could make people feel they could and should consider these careers.

Then there should be advertising the raise awareness, but any preference in hiring is discriminatory.

TheCitizen

nullzero wrote: »

Thank god you arrived to alert us to it.

You’re not wrong there, it speaks for itself. Pathetic, inaccurate, racist bile.

Nesta2018

When you look at Dr Ebun Joseph, you can see the effects of this kind of tokenistic mentality. Anyone who reads what she has written or who has listened to her will know that her PhD is a joke, as is her heading up a "Black Studies" department in UCD. This is the kind of thing that stokes racism and resentment. By contrast, look at this fine young woman from a Cameroonian background, who worked hard in school and got a teaching qualification. She did not need quota systems or special treatment and she points out herself that the opportunities are there, and encourages young people from minority backgrounds to just go for it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0605/1145786-diversity-in-education/

Yurt2

TheCitizen wrote: »

You’re not wrong there, it speaks for itself. Pathetic, inaccurate, racist bile.

Another measured contribution from yourself.

Of course you'll now tell us you and your political fellow travellers will allow an honest and dispassionate discussion about what type of immigration is appropriate and desirable for Ireland.

All the while lecturing everyone where the goalposts should be.

Rockbeast2

Nesta2018 wrote: »

When you look at Dr Ebun Joseph, you can see the effects of this kind of tokenistic mentality. Anyone who reads what she has written or who has listened to her will know that her PhD is a joke, as is her heading up a "Black Studies" department in UCD. This is the kind of thing that stokes racism and resentment. By contrast, look at this fine young woman from a Cameroonian background, who worked hard in school and got a teaching qualification. She did not need quota systems or special treatment and she points out herself that the opportunities are there, and encourages young people from minority backgrounds to just go for it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0605/1145786-diversity-in-education/

Even this article, though, implies that there are many black graduates of teaching courses who are not being employed because of "conservatism". If this is the case then that's a disgrace but I don't believe it is. Where is the evidence of all these black teaching graduates that are unemployed because of discriminatory hiring practices?

Inputs lead to outputs. It is great to see this young woman doing well and setting a great example. Hopefully many more will follow on from her.

Rodin

thomas 123 wrote: »

You may not already know this but in a lot of multinationals in Ireland they already have inclusion policies in hiring, ie a candidate from a “minority” would be given preference over a candidate from the “majority”.

That's an EXclusion policy in my book.

About time a court case was taken for discrimination.

Rodin

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Even this article, though, implies that there are many black graduates of teaching courses who are not being employed because of "conservatism". If this is the case then that's a disgrace but I don't believe it is. Where is the evidence of all these black teaching graduates that are unemployed because of discriminatory hiring practices?

Inputs lead to outputs. It is great to see this young woman doing well and setting a great example. Hopefully many more will follow on from her.

Unfortunately there are mistakes in the Irish spelling on the white board. Doesn't look good.

ChelseaRentBoy

suicide_circus wrote: »

There is a notable absence in this thread of posters who are usually very vocal about the scourge of racism, calling out racism etc.

It's okay to be racist towards white Irish people it seems.

Nesta2018

Yes, it's the journalist's take on it that they are disadvantaged, and the people involved in the race relations industry, rather than the actual teachers from migrant backgrounds interviewed.

is_that_so

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

Even this article, though, implies that there are many black graduates of teaching courses who are not being employed because of "conservatism". If this is the case then that's a disgrace but I don't believe it is. Where is the evidence of all these black teaching graduates that are unemployed because of discriminatory hiring practices?

Inputs lead to outputs. It is great to see this young woman doing well and setting a great example. Hopefully many more will follow on from her.

Given that many immigrants have moved here over the last 20 years and their kids would only now be reaching adulthood how could there be? The biggest issue at present is the male teacher problem.

is_that_so

Nesta2018 wrote: »

Yes, it's the journalist's take on it that they are disadvantaged, and the people involved in the race relations industry, rather than the actual teachers from migrant backgrounds interviewed.

It's Emma O'Kelly, she can be somewhat dramatic about things.

Yurt2

The major barrier to minorities teaching in Ireland is the Irish language requirement to be honest.

I had an American friend who wished to teach here but was put off by it. I tried to tell her a year's spadework learning and a Gaeltacht homestay would have probably got her over line, but it wasn't for her in the end.

She would have made a fine addition to any staff room but cest la vie

1800_Ladladlad

suicide_circus wrote: »

There is a notable absence in this thread of posters who are usually very vocal about the scourge of racism, calling out racism etc.

They stay in their own echo chamber and band together to report any opinions that's different to theirs s they can have a thread to themselves

kildare lad

Nesta2018 wrote: »

When you look at Dr Ebun Joseph, you can see the effects of this kind of tokenistic mentality. Anyone who reads what she has written or who has listened to her will know that her PhD is a joke, as is her heading up a "Black Studies" department in UCD. This is the kind of thing that stokes racism and resentment. By contrast, look at this fine young woman from a Cameroonian background, who worked hard in school and got a teaching qualification. She did not need quota systems or special treatment and she points out herself that the opportunities are there, and encourages young people from minority backgrounds to just go for it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0605/1145786-diversity-in-education/

She's a race baiter, I remember she was calling the Garda racist for turning up when a load of black teenagers were running riot at an event in the red cow. She's typical of someone who emigrates to another country , gets educated on the back of the tax payers then turns around and complains about how racist the country is .

Jimmy Garlic

That clown show is really pushing the boat out with this absolute nonsense, he has forgotten that the hipsters, soy boys and commies currently making absolute fools of themselves are a mob, not the majority, and nowhere near it. It will be the sword that the moron and his gaggle of idiots fall on.

TomTomTim

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

That clown show is really pushing the boat out with this absolute nonsense, he has forgotten that the hipsters, soy boys and commies currently making absolute fools of themselves are a mob, not the majority, and nowhere near it. It will be the sword that the moron and his gaggle of idiots fall on.

This is it, he's truly a social media politician, who thinks social media represents everyone. If anything it makes him look like he's not very bright.

gibsmedat

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

That clown show is really pushing the boat out with this absolute nonsense, he has forgotten that the hipsters, soy boys and commies currently making absolute fools of themselves are a mob, not the majority, and nowhere near it. It will be the sword that the moron and his gaggle of idiots fall on.

Varadkar,BLM,and the NGOs are doing a fantastic job at waking up the Irish working class to their nonsense.

The statue issue will also massively split the left.

titan18

Yurt! wrote: »

The major barrier to minorities teaching in Ireland is the Irish language requirement to be honest.

I had an American friend who wished to teach here but was put off by it. I tried to tell her a year's spadework learning and a Gaeltacht homestay would have probably got her over line, but it wasn't for her in the end.

She would have made a fine addition to any staff room but cest la vie

I'm not a fan of the language, and think at LC level, it should become optional, but I'd be completely against removing Irish from primary school. That would really be the final nail in the coffin for it. I think the majority of the country wouldn't wish it was removed from the primary school either tbh. I think it should be taught better, but complete removal really is a step too far.

meeeeh

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

They stay in their own echo chamber and band together to report any opinions that's different to theirs s they can have a thread to themselves

I think some threads are bellow me to engage in them seriously. Basically I find there is too much stupidity posted so it would unfair to highlight only one post and too much work to highlight all nonsense.

CrankyHaus

The elephant in the room is that entry to public sector jobs is still heavily influenced by family connections.
Immigrants and their children don't have these connections so they don't get the jobs.
Any sincere attempt to address this would tackle the nepotism problem.
Instead we'll just get some tokenistic affirmitive action to create a racially diverse public sector that still hires on nepotism.

Nermal

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

That clown show is really pushing the boat out with this absolute nonsense, he has forgotten that the hipsters, soy boys and commies currently making absolute fools of themselves are a mob, not the majority, and nowhere near it. It will be the sword that the moron and his gaggle of idiots fall on.

The law is on their side, and has been for two decades:

"14.— Nothing in this Act shall be construed as prohibiting—

(b) preferential treatment or the taking of positive measures which are bona fide intended to—

(i) promote equality of opportunity for persons who are, in relation to other persons, disadvantaged or who have been or are likely to be unable to avail themselves of the same opportunities as those other persons"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/14/enacted/en/html#sec14

Until this provision is repealed, there is no true equality.

CrankyHaus

Nermal wrote: »

The law is on their side, and has been for two decades:

"14.— Nothing in this Act shall be construed as prohibiting—

(b) preferential treatment or the taking of positive measures which are bona fide intended to—

(i) promote equality of opportunity for persons who are, in relation to other persons, disadvantaged or who have been or are likely to be unable to avail themselves of the same opportunities as those other persons"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/14/enacted/en/html#sec14

Until this provision is repealed, there is no true equality.

I agree to an extent. But an Equality Act that did not have that provision may, for example, have stymied the hiring of Catholic police officers into the PSNI.

In certain circumstances positive discrimination is merited as a short term measure to address serious inequalities.

But a legal situation where Mary Mitchell O'Connor can create female-only professorships is a disgrace.

kildare lad

gibsmedat wrote: »

Varadkar,BLM,and the NGOs are doing a fantastic job at waking up the Irish working class to their nonsense.

The statue issue will also massively split the left.

The Far left are doing a great job at putting the Right in power all across the world . They're so out of touch with normal people on the ground all they're doing is alienating people like me with there nonsense politics and bending over backwards to appease people who contribute little to nothing to society . You can thank the Left for another 4 years of trump when he gets re elected this year .