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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

Ridiculous comment.

No more ridiculous than someone who uses a criminal act to justify a public servant's salary.

tayto lover

salonfire wrote: »

No more ridiculous than someone who uses a criminal act to justify a public servant's salary.

Totally appropriate when the criminal act was aimed at him and his family because of the work he does. Your comment was stupid.

daithi7

Having 'Pubic Pay Cuts' in the title of this thread is disingenuous imho, as none have occurred for close to a ~ decade now!?

Perhaps it should be titled, something more like:

' What Has to Happen to Prevent Senseless Public Pay Rises?'

E.g. Ireland is going into a massive recession, with 25% unemployment, but the public sector are still giving themselves a further 2% pay rise on already hugely over the top & totally out of line salaries & pensions. Jesus wept!!

ParkRunner

daithi7 wrote: »

Having 'Pubic Pay Cuts' in the title of this thread is disingenuous imho, as none have occurred for close to a ~ decade now!?

Perhaps it should be titled, something more like:

' What Has to Happen to Prevent Senseless Public Pay Rises?'

E.g. Ireland is going into a massive recession, with 25% unemployment, but the public sector are still giving themselves a further 2% pay rise on already hugely over the top & totally out of line salaries & pensions. Jesus wept!!

I think the logic is you don’t cut yourself out of a recession as it just prolongs it. It depends on the wider state of the economy really and how long any recession might last. Needs a bit more analysis than knee jerk reactions as once a pay cut is signaled that’s a whole lot of money that’s going to immediately be banked rather than spent in anticipation

[Deleted User]

ParkRunner wrote: »

I think the logic is you don’t cut yourself out of a recession as it just prolongs it. It depends on the wider state of the economy really and how long any recession might last. Needs a bit more analysis than knee jerk reactions as once a pay cut is signaled that’s a whole lot of money that’s going to immediately be banked rather than spent in anticipation

So we shouldn't cut during downtowns and we certainly couldn't cut or rein in spending during the boom times.

When do we control our debt and spending?

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

So we shouldn't cut during downtowns and we certainly couldn't cut or rein in spending during the boom times.

When do we control our debt and spending?

How did the last cuts in the public sector in 2010 work out for you?

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

How did the last cuts in the public sector in 2010 work out for you?

Is that an answer to my question?

JJJackal

ParkRunner wrote: »

I think the logic is you don’t cut yourself out of a recession as it just prolongs it. It depends on the wider state of the economy really and how long any recession might last. Needs a bit more analysis than knee jerk reactions as once a pay cut is signaled that’s a whole lot of money that’s going to immediately be banked rather than spent in anticipation

You certainly dont give yourself a 2% payrise (a rise that will have eventually have to be taken back you would think??)

Jim Root

JJJackal wrote: »

You certainly dont give yourself a 2% payrise (a rise that will have eventually have to be taken back you would think??)

Bingo

kippy

The reality of the 2% is:
1. It's part of a legally agreed roadmap of pay and conditions restoration.
2. The net cost to the state is not 2%
3. It is very likely that shortly after far more than 2% will be shorn off public sector wages using the various channels of negotion available.

Blondini

daithi7 wrote: »

Having 'Pubic Pay Cuts' in the title of this thread is disingenuous imho, as none have occurred for close to a ~ decade now!?

Perhaps it should be titled, something more like:

' What Has to Happen to Prevent Senseless Public Pay Rises?'

E.g. Ireland is going into a massive recession, with 25% unemployment, but the public sector are still giving themselves a further 2% pay rise on already hugely over the top & totally out of line salaries & pensions. Jesus wept!!

Whatcha waiting for then!

Publicjobs.ie

[Deleted User]

Blondini wrote: »

Whatcha waiting for then!

Publicjobs.ie

That reins in spending and spiralling debt ... how exactly?

ShedTower

Jesus people are barmy when it comes to public sector pay. The 2% was a part of a 3 year public service pay stability agreement in 2017. Nobody cared that the private sector was receiving far higher pay increases since then. The public sector was falling way behind on wages, certainly in admin areas.

If things start picking up again in 2021 the private sector will get the increases (and lets face it a lot of them won't even lose the increases of the last few years). As this goes on the public sector will eventually get a 3 or 4 year pay agreement with pittance here and pittance there. Most of it kicked down the road, just as this 2% was in 2017. With a promise not to ask for anything else for years just to get it.

Newbies are pulling €390 a week. What's the Covid payment, €350? €390 for a full week of work, after competing against hundreds or thousands to get it. And a pretty poor pension to be honest, one that's miles different to preexisting schemes.

The public sector will suffer in 2021 and 2022, despite how the private sector bounces back. They'll suffer with the next pay agreement too.

The public service was a good place to be back in the day, no doubt. But anyone who joined it in the last few years must absolutely be baffled by it all.

addaword

ShedTower wrote: »

The public sector will suffer in 2021 and 2022,

Not as much as those on an average of 15,000 or whatever less a year, most of whom have no pension, security etc How many will lose their jobs? Now that is suffering.

ShedTower

addaword wrote: »

Not as much as those on an average of 15,000 or whatever less a year, most of whom have no pension, security etc How many will lose their jobs? Now that is suffering.

15k or less a year? You're talking about a select group of bigwigs at the top who have been in for decades. I'm talking about the thousands of ordinary public servants.

And how many of those you mentioned wouldn't have even considered the public service due to the low wages? And won't either when things pick back up.

As I said the public service is very different to what it was and it has been for anyone in since 2013. You can't just keep making it worse.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Not as much as those on an average of 15,000 or whatever less a year, most of whom have no pension, security etc How many will lose their jobs? Now that is suffering.

There's obviously various levels and degrees of suffering. Ultimately everyone will get some state support to get through it. Its a great little country we live in and it may provide those that were in lower wages an opportunity to retrain and get into a better paying and more secure career

daithi7

ParkRunner wrote: »

I think the logic is you don’t cut yourself out of a recession as it just prolongs it. It depends on the wider state of the economy really and how long any recession might last. Needs a bit more analysis than knee jerk reactions as once a pay cut is signaled that’s a whole lot of money that’s going to immediately be banked rather than spent in anticipation

I think even someone like you knows the only ' logic' is to quietly pile on even more pay rises for the public sector (who of course politicians own pay is linked to ~ funny dat hey!? ). This must all be pulled off before the mother of all recessions is reflected fully in the national finances in the autumn & next year.

Once the horror of our financial reality is fully apparent, & it will be, this latest pay rise is going to be seen to be the absolute abomination that it is.

As another poster succinctly put it, since the last financial crash there has been a ~ restoration of public pay to Celtic Tiger levels ( which were never sustainable anyway) but there has been no corresponding restoration to 2007 Tax Levels. I.e. USC rates & other 'emergency & one off taxes are all still in place. Why?! To pay outsized pubic pay & pensions off course!!

That's just plain wrong imho, and this public pay rise, now when we've 25% unemployment, is a total disgrace

kippy

daithi7 wrote: »

I think even someone like you know' the logic' is to quietly pile on even more pay rises for the public sector (who of course politicians own pay is linked to ~ funny dat hey!? ) before the mother of all recessions is reflected fully in the national finances in the autumn & next year.

Once the horror of our financial reality is fully apparent, this latest pay rise is going to be seen to be the absolute abomination that it is.

As another poster succinctly put it, since the last financial crash there has been a restoration of public pay to Celtic Tiger levels ( which were never sustainable) but there has been no restoration to 2007 Tax Levels. (I.e. USC, rates, other 'emergency & one off taxes all stillin place ).

That's just plain wrong imho, and this public pay rise now, is a disgrace

Your lack of appreciation for facts is telling.

KaneToad

daithi7 wrote: »

As another poster succinctly put it, since the last financial crash there has been a restoration of public pay to Celtic Tiger levels..

That other poster would be incorrect.

JJJackal

kippy wrote: »

The reality of the 2% is:
1. It's part of a legally agreed roadmap of pay and conditions restoration.
2. The net cost to the state is not 2%
3. It is very likely that shortly after far more than 2% will be shorn off public sector wages using the various channels of negotion available.

1. You negotiate with the unions to defer - everyone knows we dont have the money now.
2. Net gain of future cuts to state - a 5% cut is really only a 1% gain because state wont get PAYE, PRSI etc etc and people wont spend in shop so no VAT and then other people wont have jobs cause the public sector arent buying in shops ets
3. It makes sense to delay the 2% for now - you dont miss what you never had. Giving it now and shearing off 4% next year to make up for it is far worse than delaying it imo.

combat14

the green tax everything and anything that stirs party are in government now.. it will be pay rises that are needed not cuts to afford all the new "green" taxes that are being brought in

fliball123

combat14 wrote: »

the green tax everything and anything that stirs party are in government now.. it will be pay rises that are needed not cuts to afford all the new "green" taxes that are being brought in

How do you reckon that so we all have to pay more taxes for their payrises. emmm thanks but no thanks.

Sierra Oscar

Pascal Donohoe gives a statement on plans around public sector pay

Minister for Finance confirms the September pay increase will go ahead as scheduled and a new pay agreement will be negotiated later in the year. There will be no public sector pay cuts.

Scoundrel

ShedTower wrote: »

Jesus people are barmy when it comes to public sector pay. The 2% was a part of a 3 year public service pay stability agreement in 2017. Nobody cared that the private sector was receiving far higher pay increases since then. The public sector was falling way behind on wages, certainly in admin areas.

If things start picking up again in 2021 the private sector will get the increases (and lets face it a lot of them won't even lose the increases of the last few years). As this goes on the public sector will eventually get a 3 or 4 year pay agreement with pittance here and pittance there. Most of it kicked down the road, just as this 2% was in 2017. With a promise not to ask for anything else for years just to get it.

Newbies are pulling €390 a week. What's the Covid payment, €350? €390 for a full week of work, after competing against hundreds or thousands to get it. And a pretty poor pension to be honest, one that's miles different to preexisting schemes.

The public sector will suffer in 2021 and 2022, despite how the private sector bounces back. They'll suffer with the next pay agreement too.

The public service was a good place to be back in the day, no doubt. But anyone who joined it in the last few years must absolutely be baffled by it all.

Don't try and educate the Indo reading Newstalk listening morons with facts and figures you'll give yourself a hernia dealing with them.

There is a weird subset in Irish society who go pink in the face at the thought of Public servants receiving decent pay and who believe that cutting their pay is the solution to all economic problems I find these are the same people who want public services supplied to them before they request them.

TheSheriff

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Pascal Donohoe gives a statement on plans around public sector pay

Minister for Finance confirms the September pay increase will go ahead as scheduled and a new pay agreement will be negotiated later in the year. There will be no public sector pay cuts.

Glad to hear this.

I interface with alot of public servants in my role; they are some of the hardest working people I know. Well deserved and delighted the government haven't backtracked.

[Deleted User]

Scoundrel wrote: »

Don't try and educate the Indo reading Newstalk listening morons with facts and figures you'll give yourself a hernia dealing with them.

No cuts would be severe enough to satisfy them. No point justifying PS pay to these haters. As we can see anyway the decision makers like Pascal appreciate the work the PS do.

Scoundrel

Deleted User wrote: »

No cuts would be severe enough to satisfy them. No point justifying PS pay to these haters. As we can see anyway the decision makers like Pascal appreciate the work the PS do.

Indeed and any sensible person knows that cuts of some form are coming i.e recruitment/promotion moratorium pay freeze etc but imagine the government asking unions for concessions in next pay deal having refused to honour the previous one they'd be laughed out of it.

daithi7

Scoundrel wrote: »

Don't try and educate the Indo reading Newstalk listening morons with facts and figures you'll give yourself a hernia dealing with them.

Blah, de blah, bs, blah, bs...
.

In Ireland public sector pay is 30% greater than the private sector (not including the gold plated,
index linked pensions)

In the UK the differential is just 1%.

Fact is , Ireland pays its public sector far too much and the rest of the workforce and society as a whole must pay for this excess.

Is a travesty, that feeds into things like the cost of Healthcare, policing, etc, etc, etc . That's what bothers neutrals tbh.

Geuze

combat14 wrote: »

the green tax everything and anything that stirs party are in government now.. it will be pay rises that are needed not cuts to afford all the new "green" taxes that are being brought in

I wonder can you list the names of these "new green taxes"?

I haven't heard of any.

Geuze

daithi7 wrote: »

In Ireland public sector pay is 30% greater than the private sector (not including the gold plated, index linked pensions)

Irish PS pay is 0.3% below the private sector, although this varies across the pay distribution.

The previous PS pay premium has declined, due to PS paycuts, and lower pay restoration compared to pay rises outside the PS.

OK, lower paid PS, at the 10th percentile, do earn 12.7% more then the private sector, ok.

But non-PS get faster pay progression, so by the 90th percentile, the PS have fallen 17.3% behind.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

"Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4."

The pensions for people hired since 2011/2013? have been made less generous.