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Golf Lockdown Discussion No discussion of breaking Restrictions

Keano

Time to discuss what golf is going to look like for next year, maybe more, who knows.

What is your club doing? What would you like to see happen?

Mod note: we have done to death the restrictions(5k jumping to 20k in June) so this is not a thread for discussing that topic, take it to COVID-19 forum

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PARlance

twounderpar wrote: »

In the statement it says the Expert Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in
Phase 2.
Is horse racing not a competitive sport.

Anyway I'm quite calm about the situation. All I'm trying to do is attempting to tease out the logic behind the decision.

My horses never get within 2m of the winner anyway!

twounderpar

PARlance wrote: »

My horses never get within 2m of the winner anyway!

The old jokes are the best!

youcancallmeal

twounderpar wrote: »

In the statement it says the Expert Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in
Phase 2.
Is horse racing not a competitive sport.

Anyway I'm quite calm about the situation. All I'm trying to do is attempting to tease out the logic behind the decision.

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

Golfhead65

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

As I said before no balls and ruderless

prawnsambo

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

You're never going to see these statements saying that it's an order. And it's not set in legislation, so it's not law either. But advice is about as strong as it gets.

If I said clubs can go ahead ad ignore it if they like it's only advice, would you?

twounderpar

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This expert group is made up of 12 people including one representative from FAI, IRFU and GAA.

They also decided at the end of Phase One that driving ranges were indoor facilities. Did they ever change their mind on that decision
because it seems all driving ranges opened their doors anyway.

BoldReason

To answer the query about horse racing earlier. HRI receives its guidance and funding from the department of agriculture and not sport Ireland.

It was originally scheduled to return on June 28th however they requested that it be considered that the date be move forward to an earlier date as it is likely to be easy to practice social Distancing there. Also that there are 30k+ working in the industry was a considering factor as well as the direct affect no flat racing would have on the breeding industry.

BoldReason

Finally will get out today for a game with the 5km restriction being lifted. I expect nothing less than 10 scratches for about 18 points

[Deleted User]

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position? Yes it won't matter to a lot but it could be the tipping point for some.

I also feel sorry for all of the unpaid volunteers up and down the country who have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to make sure everything was set up for an effective and safe return to competition golf.

Golf is my Game

RGS wrote: »

What's needed it for every club to refuse to pay the gui sub in 2021. They cant suspend all clubs.
Are clubs willing to go that far in protest?

If those fussed about it, are still having a tantrum in a years time, about being denied competitions golf, for three weeks during covid unlocking, during which they can still nevertheless play golf, they will be quickly told be the rest of the members who just want to get on with golf and have their GUI handicaps legit with golfnet access, to just grow up.

thecomedian

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

hurikane

thecomedian wrote: »

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

I have it on good authority that the cancellation of club competitions in this phase is to reduce the current workloads on committees, who have been inundated with new members and handicap transfers. Also due to shortages in the defence forces, committees will be called up to defend county borders from golfers travelling county to county in search of a game. All necessary training will be provided to committees, who will be issued with fire arms.

bustercherry

Exactly wrote: »

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position? Yes it won't matter to a lot but it could be the tipping point for some.

I also feel sorry for all of the unpaid volunteers up and down the country who have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to make sure everything was set up for an effective and safe return to competition golf.

I just don't get this argument - these are member competitions not opens or green fees.

For non-member owned clubs, competition fees "should not" be going back to the course owners anyway. They are normally separate entities, hence if the club entity is run on a voluntary basis then the impact is "effectively" zero (on the course - I get that the club may have to curtail some of activities).

For member owned clubs, if you are reliant on member comp fees to keep the course operating, then I'd say you have serious problems already.

CalamariFritti

Yes many clubs will be having serious problems already. No income for 2 months. No green fees for god knows how long, at least 3 months. No bar no restaurant no pro shop income but retainers need to be paid. Members looking for payment lapses due to unemployment. Its quite a list.

Most golf club budgets won't have much room to spare. Many members owned clubs basically operate as a non-profit and only the biggest clubs will have a reserve to fall back on. And its not like the last 10 years have been golden years anyway.

Member competitions do contribute to the funding as not the entire competition pot is being paid out. Semi opens and opens are quite a chunk in our budget I believe. In any case, every little helps.

FixdePitchmark

twounderpar wrote: »

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This expert group is made up of 12 people including one representative from FAI, IRFU and GAA.

They also decided at the end of Phase One that driving ranges were indoor facilities. Did they ever change their mind on that decision
because it seems all driving ranges opened their doors anyway.

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

CalamariFritti

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

Could tap the screen/keyboard with the back of your pencil? Ideally one of those with a rubber?

prawnsambo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

A paper scorecard that hasn't been touched by anyone else is fine. GUI/CONGU have advised that you mark your own score, agree with marker and write their name in. And then there are the electronic methods such as handicap master through the BRS golf app.

FixdePitchmark

Does every club and golfer - right now, have a system to enter scores remotely ?

bustercherry

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Yes many clubs will be having serious problems already. No income for 2 months. No green fees for god knows how long, at least 3 months. No bar no restaurant no pro shop income but retainers need to be paid. Members looking for payment lapses due to unemployment. Its quite a list.

Most golf club budgets won't have much room to spare. Many members owned clubs basically operate as a non-profit and only the biggest clubs will have a reserve to fall back on. And its not like the last 10 years have been golden years anyway.

Member competitions do contribute to the funding as not the entire competition pot is being paid out. Semi opens and opens are quite a chunk in our budget I believe. In any case, every little helps.

I'm not disputng the problems of having no additional income on top of members subs, and what subs are getting paid.

It's in the context of the decision to change the phase 2 requirements to not allow members comps (not opens or semi-opens because they were never in scope), I don't get how it puts a club in any more precarious a financial position?

In a non-member owned club, that money will go back into running the club and not the course so it's irrelevant. In a member owned club, I get every bit helps but 3 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme of things. If the club is in serious difficulty already then the club should be doing other things to inject cash flow.

Golf is my Game

Exactly wrote: »

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position?

None. If their down to their last thousand quid making a difference, then they are already gone. Think in their annoyance at losing a couple of comps, lads are really loosing their reason here.

prawnsambo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Does every club and golfer - right now, have a system to enter scores remotely ?

Certainly every club that uses Master Scoreboard and Golfraffix's system plus a couple more like IG would. Last I heard, HowDidIDo were working on adding the facility, but no sign of that yet. Latest version of the app on Google Play seems to be from last year.

downthemiddle

thecomedian wrote: »

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

It would be if it was a GUI decision.

prawnsambo

Golf is my Game wrote: »

None. If their down to their last thousand quid making a difference, then they are already gone. Think in their annoyance at losing a couple of comps, lads are really loosing their reason here.

It's not a 'couple of comps'. It's the loss of all competition, green fee and society income since 21st March. It will now be over a quarter of a year of lost income by the time that income starts flowing in again.

Golf is my Game

twounderpar wrote: »

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This is the wrong way to look at it, and similar to the round in circles discusion that was here on the 2km / 5km travelling. Regulations can always be argued at the margins. They have to allow for all sorts, and so can be a bit blunt, which when looked at in fine detail, seemingly illogical flaws can be found. But the line has to be drawn somewhere.
You state a question that is not the one being answered by the law. Of course you having a card in your back pocket wont spread it. But to allow you to do that would open a wider case where the virus would be spread. Again, its like the 2km thing : If 2km is OK, then surely 2.1km is ok - if Im travelling 10km for work, then surely travelling 9km to golf is OK too, etc, etc. People are not seeing the wood for the trees like.

Golf is my Game

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a 'couple of comps'. It's the loss of all competition, green fee and society income since 21st March. It will now be over a quarter of a year of lost income by the time that income starts flowing in again.

What people is clearly getting hot up about is the 3 week delay. Thats not even a straw to break the tipping point.

prawnsambo

Golf is my Game wrote: »

What people is clearly getting hot up about is the 3 week delay. Thats not even a straw to break the tipping point.

How do you know that? No income for another three weeks whilst costs have escalated through the additional requirements posed by maintaining a safe environment. Five clubs have closed so far.

thecomedian

hurikane wrote: »

I have it on good authority that the cancellation of club competitions in this phase is to reduce the current workloads on committees, who have been inundated with new members and handicap transfers. Also due to shortages in the defence forces, committees will be called up to defend county borders from golfers travelling county to county in search of a game. All necessary training will be provided to committees, who will be issued with fire arms.

???????

downthemiddle

thecomedian wrote: »

???????

And you think you’re the comedian!!!

RGS

People are annoyed at the GUI handling of this matter.

The GUI roadmap initially released allowed for closed comps and members guests from this morning. Clubs and software providers took the roadmap and ran with it and did all the necessary work on amending time sheets, providing digital scorecards etc and had their competitions arranged for the next number of weeks and saw all their work discarded by a statement after 7.30pm on Friday.

The GUI statement on Saturday stated that feedback from the expert group was silent on the phase 2 elements whereas the elements in phase 1 were approved.
It was incumbent on the GUI to seek early clarification on phase 2 or amend the roadmap to state only casual golf until the expert group advises otherwise.

Secondly releasing the statement after 7.30pm on a Friday was in my view done to avoid questions or comments at the WHS zoom conference on Friday afternoon.

The saying "over promised and under delivered" applies to the GUI in this instance.

People accepted that restrictions were necessary and sport had to cease. All sports people wanted was proper guidance and advise from their association.

thecomedian

downthemiddle wrote: »

And you think you’re the comedian!!!

I guess I didn’t see the funny side.