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If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bilbot79

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

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Snow Garden

ELM327 wrote: »

Initech?

krissovo

hots wrote: »

Same, we've hired and onboarded people during this already. And we've done performance reviews, promotions and performance monitoring from home. If you don't go in with the mindset of "it's impossible" a lot is achievable.

70% of my job is to fix the "its impossible" attitudes in exec and senior roles who are blockers to adopting remote & cloud technology and turn it into the art of what is possible. In 3 years of doing the role and working with global banks, pharma, healthcare, NATO and governments only Pharma GxP has some genuine blockers and certain executive (or secrete) communication.

The only real blockers are people not adapting to change very well.

snoopboggybog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh.

I've been vague, because I'm not going to give out details about the actual companies that I've been doing work for, or even the industries they're in.

I can assure you that they're not crap to work for, they just work in a field where there's lots of conflict with customers and related parties. So (just like CCTV in pubs) technological monitoring ends up being part of supporting the employees, as well as meeting regulatory requirements.

In the last 3 months, against my better judgement, I've installed VPN software on personal computers (my own included) because in mid-March the supply chain dried up: our usual vendors couldn't get us laptops fast enough. Thankfully we've now got hold of enough laptops to roll this back, But it took a while.

I now work from home 4 days a week, on average. For me it's fine. But I'm not taking sensitive customer calls or doing staff performance reviews in front of my partner, kids or housemates. I know that some of our people are, and are finding it difficult. Similarly, my work is not regulated (my manager is not not going to face an audit asking how he knows that FDA or whatever standards were maintained). And I know that there are far broader issues involved.

This article presents a good look at the history and challenges of remote working. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/can-remote-work-be-fixed

But even it ignores the issue of promotions and career development. Working remotely is fine if you're experienced and know what you're doing. But how do you get a job you're not experienced in? How do you learn to do something new? How do recent graduates even begin to get career jobs - no one's going to hire them to work remotely, and many won't have gafs which are adequate for home-working, either.

It also ignores non-performing or badly-behaved employees: when I worked for an organisation with 1200 staff nationwide, the HR people knew they would have about 12-14 major investigations each year, and that about half of them would end up with firing someone - because not every professional adult behaves the right way all the time.

Do you even have Skype or Microsoft teams where you work?

Working remotely is part of nearly every decent company for the last 10 years.

Ted_YNWA

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh.

But even it ignores the issue of promotions and career development. Working remotely is fine if you're experienced and know what you're doing. But how do you get a job you're not experienced in? How do you learn to do something new? How do recent graduates even begin to get career jobs - no one's going to hire them to work remotely, and many won't have gafs which are adequate for home-working, either.

I moved internally to a new role on the 27 April, bang in the middle of this pandemic. I have beeen working from home since 14 March training my replacement (who is a complete newbie to the company) and is based in India.

Using shared screens on Skype & Webex to deliver this training.

I am also receiving training 'on the job' for this new role over skype shared screens. I had some exposure to what is being done on the team, however this knowledge is 7 years old, so I may as well be a newbie. Using completely new systems that I have never seen before.

I know from personal experience as I have seen it from both sides Trainer & Student over the past two months that it is completely do-able to onboard into a new role remotely.

Technocentral

https://www.treehugger.com/interior-design/future-office-will-be-coffee-shop.html

Excellently argued article.

El Tarangu

mariaalice wrote: »

Has anyone worked out how much an office with say 100/200 people, now nearly all working at home are saving in electricity costs alone, let alone incidental costs such as tea, coffee, milk the person washing the cups and keeping the kitchen tidy and clean or the costs of cleaners.

A bit, but probably not much compared to their other fixed costs like rent, running their servers, etc. IT costs have risen in the first month with the extra support needed in getting everyone set up, maybe buying new equipment for some employees.

JimmyVik wrote: »

I worked for a MNC years ago. I used to go out with the person who was tasked with this in HR, so found out first hand what happened.

...

50 were called into HR a few weeks later and given the choice, resign or be fired. The company did not have to pay out any redundancies at all.

If this was supposed to have happened in Ireland, it doesn't ring true at all for me - employee protections are very strong in this country, the chances of 4 or 5 people out of the 50 not bringing the company to the labour court (and probably winning, and the company having to pay out more than it would have cost them for the 50 redundancies in the first place) are close to nil.

[Deleted User]

JimmyVik wrote: »

I worked for a MNC years ago. I used to go out with the person who was tasked with this in HR, so found out first hand what happened.

When they needed 50 redundancies HR were told to go the head of IT with 100 names and get them to "dig out offensive jokes or any other mails or websites that these people sent or visited over the last few years". The head of IT got his man on it and came up with the goods.

Everyone has a joke or an email that they sent on that at least someone in the world might find offensive.

50 were called into HR a few weeks later and given the choice, resign or be fired. The company did not have to pay out any redundancies at all.

Another event was , a person in legal, no less, who was being bullied was sending emails to their personal email account detailing the bullying events as they happened.
They were brought in and told they had violated company policy, shown a lot of emails including the ones they sent to themselves and given the choice too. They left quietly.

Companies are always storing up information that can be used when suited.

It would take a tribunal about 20 minutes to show that these employees were not treated equally to their peers, and that firings were not valid.

Mrs OBumble

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Do you even have Skype or Microsoft teams where you work?

Working remotely is part of nearly every decent company for the last 10 years.

In various companies, I've used Lync, Skype for Business, Teams, Webex ... and a couple of others I cannot remember the names of.

I've remotely trained my Chinese replacement (both of us working in-office though: neither had dogs in the background, children in the room or monitors perched on the kitchen window-ledge, which are features of many people's current WFH setup).

Multi-location teams are indeed part of working for many large companies. But moving to a company where I didn't have to deal with remote teams was a massive relief, because communication becomes so much simpler. The Agile Manifest says that face-to-face communication is preferred, for a damn good reason.

Electric Sheep

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The Agile Manifest says that face-to-face communication is preferred, for a damn good reason.

Still doing Agile? Most companies saw through that bull**** years ago.

The Spider

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In various companies, I've used Lync, Skype for Business, Teams, Webex ... and a couple of others I cannot remember the names of.

I've remotely trained my Chinese replacement (both of us working in-office though: neither had dogs in the background, children in the room or monitors perched on the kitchen window-ledge, which are features of many people's current WFH setup).

Multi-location teams are indeed part of working for many large companies. But moving to a company where I didn't have to deal with remote teams was a massive relief, because communication becomes so much simpler. The Agile Manifest says that face-to-face communication is preferred, for a damn good reason.

There's so many things wrong with agile it's not even funny, and the fact is not many companies are doing agile correctly, it's an engineering manifesto, which means things like UX have to operate 1 or 2 sprints ahead, which by default means you're back to waterfall, as designs are passed back to engineers, you can ghet around some of it with a decent design system, but that'll only work for patch jobs not a new procuct.

snoopboggybog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In various companies, I've used Lync, Skype for Business, Teams, Webex ... and a couple of others I cannot remember the names of.

I've remotely trained my Chinese replacement (both of us working in-office though: neither had dogs in the background, children in the room or monitors perched on the kitchen window-ledge, which are features of many people's current WFH setup).

Multi-location teams are indeed part of working for many large companies. But moving to a company where I didn't have to deal with remote teams was a massive relief, because communication becomes so much simpler. The Agile Manifest says that face-to-face communication is preferred, for a damn good reason.

Your so anti-work from home its not even funny. What are you afraid of?

Jim2007

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The Agile Manifest says that face-to-face communication is preferred, for a damn good reason.

The Agile Manifest is not a bible and the jury is still out as to whether Agile is even a cost effective process. It is clear that it is a great way to generate early billable hours for consultants, where the process originated, but it is not looking very hot when it comes to total cost of ownership....

NJto.IE

My work is currently entirely from home and productivity across the entire company has jumped since the pandemic. Even with the added stress families are under. It will be hard to drag some back to the office, as meetings suggest full-time telework is preferred.

To the OP, I see all the benefits of it myself. I live in a great city but the cost of housing even in the far suburbs is extraordinary. I would rather spread my money around as OP has mused.

ELM327

We won't be going back to the office in 2020.
My partner and I work for similar companies in the same industry.

Long term, this has changed our plans for location. We had planned to stay in a commuter town like now (meath) but we are now thinking about moving to be near both our family diasporas which are spread around wexford, kildare, wicklow etc and not worrying about commuting.

Mrs OBumble

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Your so anti-work from home its not even funny. What are you afraid of?

I'm afraid of nothing. I just know that the who thing is a double-edged sword.

Personally I'm about 80% working from home since April. It means I get better coffee and lunches, but my partner doesn't have a living room during the day (which kinda sucks for him). Health and Safety would have kittens if they saw my work area.

Superficially my tasks can be done as well here. But the quality of relationships with other team members isn't as good. I have zero informal interaction with colleagues any more, and get no company news.

I've also been asked about trackerware software to keep track of colleagues. Whatever you may think of management who want it, I know that some of them do.

Cal4567

Just my two cents worth.

I am a business consultant. It has been a recurring comment through clients and work colleagues these last 3 months how their businesses have been able to continue working remotely and in some instances, staff have performed in excess of previous, 100% office based activity.

The only negatives which has been mirrored above is the total separation, hence companies hoping to meet this challenge by having staff in offices for a day or two each week. It's about forming a balance. What I've found is that senior staff in their 30-40s get it totally, less so with the older ones, but not totally negative either. I think having electronic communications now for the last 2 decades and how that has developed, has been a great help in helping a changing mindset. Those existing 30-40s will as each year goes take on more senior roles.

The financial and social values are strongly in favour of WFH. It may sound very dramatic but this really is a game changer.

TimeToShine

WFH is flourishing at the moment due to relationships that had been established before the pandemic hit - teams that were working together before this pandemic could easily be just as productive, consultants in the middle of projects and software types arguably more-so. So we're seeing the fruits of months/years of heavy lifting from face to face interaction coming to fruition as you take the excess out and let people get on with their jobs.

I don't know if this output will carry over when it comes to on-boarding new recruits and fitting them into the modern working team model. One new person is fine but what happens two years from now when your team of 8 has churned and each individual has strict WFH requirements making face-to-face interaction rare at best? I suspect productivity, collaborative ability and output will drop accordingly, frustration with the role due to lack of support will rise, and running a team this heavily disjointed is very difficult even for very talented managers.

WFH is great but it doesn't suit people early in their career, and since these are the people doing most of the grunt work you can expect a bit of backlash down the line if this persists. We may see private companies invest heavily in team-building and offsites, except they may last weeks instead of days to make up for lost ground. All I know is that the hours have to be made up somewhere, if not for productivity then for sanity and health.

snotboogie

Mr.S wrote: »

This is nothing new for people who work with colleagues based in different locations though, which obviously happened pre-covid19. I work with people I've never met in person in 2-3 years, it's never been an issue.

Likewise for onboarding / new starters - sometimes people on my team are in different locations or hired as fully remote - you quickly get over the lack of face-to-face and realise the likes of VC fill this quite easily.

I do agree that a lot more focus will be given to team building / off (virtual?) sites etc over the next year.

The obvious thing missing with remote work is lack of socialising and 'watercooler' chat or office banter - it's a little harder to do this virtually but not impossible! But as the other poster said, that's why people will find a happy medium of WFH / going into the office, if they wish.

Long term there will be an increase in business travel if work from home is implemented. There will be a focus on teams meeting up once a quarter or so. This will necessitate a lot of travel for multinationals, previously it was the same minority doing 90% of the travel but in the future it will be more evenly spread across the company as teams meet up.

Strumms

The ONLY thing working from home again achieves is a HUGE fûcking saving for your employer, of which you’ll see zero in your own payslip.

They’ve had to lease a 500x200 ft square foot office space, now it’s smaller, just the management it’s a 200x200 ft facility. Saving about 60,000 a year let’s say (conservative guesstimate). The energy bill, saving 10,000.. they get the cleaners in 3 days a week instead of 5, saving 6000 a year, there is no longer seen as a need to have static security at reception on the front desk, saving 12,000 a year...yes business is down but the overall saving by having people work remotely is...

88,000, in savings...

You are not offered compensation for the use of your home as a workplace, when you go to answer your front door to a neighbor or a courier and your boss is ringing your work mobile, then your house phone, wondering what you are up to... why it’s takig 10 minutes to send them a reply to an email....

ALL this going on in your own home, your HOME that’s previous been YOUR castle, you step in, it’s always been your rules, door closes it’s a buffer to outside bullshît, people you don’t want to see and have anything to do with..

Now, 19.00 in the evening..phone ringing..” sorry Gerry, the end of day report, head office are just asking....”. You’ve blurred the line...DONT EVER blur the line between work and your personal life / personal space, family life / family space, love life / intimate space... etc, fûck em.

snoopboggybog

Strumms wrote: »

The ONLY thing working from home again achieves is a HUGE fûcking saving for your employer, of which you’ll see zero in your own payslip.

They’ve had to lease a 500x200 ft square foot office space, now it’s smaller, just the management it’s a 200x200 ft facility. Saving about 60,000 a year let’s say (conservative guesstimate). The energy bill, saving 10,000.. they get the cleaners in 3 days a week instead of 5, saving 6000 a year, there is no longer seen as a need to have static security at reception on the front desk, saving 12,000 a year...yes business is down but the overall saving by having people work remotely is...

88,000, in savings...

You are not offered compensation for the use of your home as a workplace, when you go to answer your front door to a neighbor or a courier and your boss is ringing your work mobile, then your house phone, wondering what you are up to... why it’s takig 10 minutes to send them a reply to an email....

ALL this going on in your own home, your HOME that’s previous been YOUR castle, you step in, it’s always been your rules, door closes it’s a buffer to outside bullshît, people you don’t want to see and have anything to do with..

Now, 19.00 in the evening..phone ringing..” sorry Gerry, the end of day report, head office are just asking....”. You’ve blurred the line...DONT EVER blur the line between work and your personal life / personal space, family life / family space, love life / intimate space... etc, fûck em.

Seriously? Here's a few benefits.

Savings on work clothes.
Savings on lunches.
More productive.
No more commuting.(A lot of people travel four hours or more to work in Dublin every day).
More Sleep.
Working in a relaxed enviroment.
Childcare.
Great for the enviroment.

The type of situation your talking about is companies taking the piss which can happen but you need to put your foot down.

Do you think a company acutally cares about the 100K the have to spend on office, come on like use your brain.

People commuting into Dublin could have three hours extra free every day by not having to commute to the office or more.
I know people working in Dublin that have a four hour commute to Dublin every day.

Nearly a full day free if the could work from home never mind the car, fuel costs and maintenance.

Strumms

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Seriously? Here's a few benefits.

Savings on work clothes.
Savings on lunches.
More productive.
No more commuting.
More Sleep.
Working in a relaxed enviroment.
Childcare.

The type of situation your talking about is companies taking the piss which can happen but you need to put your foot down.

Do you think a company acutally cares about the 100K the have to spend on office, come on like use your brain.

Childcare ? Sorry you cannot work AND mind and look after children.

Savings on work clothes ? Laughable

Lunches ? You still gotta eat, now prepare and eat.

More sleep ? Maybe 30 minutes, wow.

A relaxed environment ? Sure, really relaxing, turning your home, place of rest and relaxation into a free workspace.

I’d invite you to use your brain but I can see the unwillingness already

snoopboggybog

Strumms wrote: »

Childcare ? Sorry you cannot work AND mind and look after children.

Savings on work clothes ? Laughable

Lunches ? You still gotta eat, now prepare and eat.

More sleep ? Maybe 30 minutes, wow.

A relaxed environment ? Sure, really relaxing, turning your home, place of rest and relaxation into a free workspace.

I’d invite you to use your brain but I can see the unwillingness already

More sleep? Tell that to people commuting two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening to Dublin every day or people stuck in traffic jams for an hour each morning.

Do you think everyones work place is 30 minutes away or something?

Strumms

snoopboggybog wrote: »

More sleep? Tell that to people commuting two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening to Dublin every day or people stuck in traffic jams for an hour each morning.

Do you think everyones work place is 30 minutes away or something?

The word ‘maybe’ mean anything to you, or something ?

snoopboggybog

Strumms wrote: »

The word ‘maybe’ mean anything to you, or something ?

Are you drunk? Bit early on a Sunday isn't it?

Hopefully working from home becomes the new normal for people like Twitter has implemented.

You would have a better life work balance working from home. I do see though how it could affect some people's mental health without the social
interaction.

The whole working from home thing mighn't suit everyone.

Also its great for the enviroment. I've never been as rested and relaxed for the last 12 weeks.

[Deleted User]

Strumms wrote: »

The ONLY thing working from home again achieves is a HUGE fûcking saving for your employer, of which you’ll see zero in your own payslip.

They’ve had to lease a 500x200 ft square foot office space, now it’s smaller, just the management it’s a 200x200 ft facility. Saving about 60,000 a year let’s say (conservative guesstimate). The energy bill, saving 10,000.. they get the cleaners in 3 days a week instead of 5, saving 6000 a year, there is no longer seen as a need to have static security at reception on the front desk, saving 12,000 a year...yes business is down but the overall saving by having people work remotely is...

88,000, in savings...

You are not offered compensation for the use of your home as a workplace, when you go to answer your front door to a neighbor or a courier and your boss is ringing your work mobile, then your house phone, wondering what you are up to... why it’s takig 10 minutes to send them a reply to an email....

ALL this going on in your own home, your HOME that’s previous been YOUR castle, you step in, it’s always been your rules, door closes it’s a buffer to outside bullshît, people you don’t want to see and have anything to do with..

Now, 19.00 in the evening..phone ringing..” sorry Gerry, the end of day report, head office are just asking....”. You’ve blurred the line...DONT EVER blur the line between work and your personal life / personal space, family life / family space, love life / intimate space... etc, fûck em.

Set your status in teams/slack to out of office and switch everything off. If you're popping away for 10 minutes set it to brb (be right back). If your boss says where were you I was trying to call you you tell him you were taking a ****, having a coffee break, hanging out the washing whatever it is you were doing. Not really seeing what your problem is to be honest except that maybe you have an arsehole for a boss.

Strumms

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Are you drunk? Bit early on a Sunday isn't it?

Hopefully working from home becomes the new normal for people like Twitter.

You would have a better life work balance working from home.

No, but pour yourself a glass of something you seem like you need it.

There wouldn't be ‘balance’ there would be ‘invasion’, to your space, time, personal and family life..

I’ll let you call up the twitter folks and tell them what they are doing wrong, I’m sure they’ll be delighted to hear from you and your ummm ‘expertise’.

Strumms

Deleted User wrote: »

Set your status in teams/slack to out of office and switch everything off. If you're popping away for 10 minutes set it to brb (be right back). If your boss says where were you I was trying to call you you tell him you were taking a ****, having a coffee break, hanging out the washing whatever it is you were doing. Not really seeing what your problem is to be honest except that maybe you have an arsehole for a boss.

Nope, will never come a day where I’m telling an employer an excuse for not being available to them in my own home, never .:)

snoopboggybog

Strumms wrote: »

No, but pour yourself a glass of something you seem like you need it.

There wouldn't be ‘balance’ there would be ‘invasion’, to your space, time, personal and family life..

I’ll let you call up the twitter folks and tell them what they are doing wrong, I’m sure they’ll be delighted to hear from you and your ummm ‘expertise’.

You must have an arsehole of a boss then or work for a crap company?

I start at 9, finish at 5. I might get a call once every two month out of hours which I don't mind. I tell them if I'm available or not. If I say I'm not available they just move onto the next member of the team.

Its not bad really.

[Deleted User]

Strumms wrote: »

Nope, will never come a day where I’m telling an employer an excuse for not being available to them in my own home, never .:)

Yeah you're dead right and to be honest I've never had a boss or even a colleague that would ask where I was if I cant be contacted, home or at the office.

snoopboggybog

Strumms wrote: »

No, but pour yourself a glass of something you seem like you need it.

There wouldn't be ‘balance’ there would be ‘invasion’, to your space, time, personal and family life..

I’ll let you call up the twitter folks and tell them what they are doing wrong, I’m sure they’ll be delighted to hear from you and your ummm ‘expertise’.

Please explain how there would be an invasion into your space, time, personal and family life.

I can't wait for your response because this is just nonsense. It's no difference from been in the office during your normal working hours.