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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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addaword

blanch152 wrote: »

€1.8 million is what is costs to buy an individualised pension with all of the attendant cuts taken by pension sellers, insurance companies, actuaries etc.

Why should the taxpayer fund that average pension pot for every retiring Garda? Let them buy it themselves. The average taxpayer paying hard earned money to the government can not afford or does not get such a pension.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer fund that average pension pot for every retiring Garda? Let them buy it themselves. The average taxpayer paying hard earned money to the government can not afford or does not get such a pension.

The fact that you don't understand the function and funding of the public service speaks volumes. People have explained your misconceptions and pointed out your lies and yet you return spouting rubbish

addaword

History Queen wrote: »

The fact that you don't understand the function and funding of the public service speaks volumes. People have explained your misconceptions and pointed out your lies and yet you return spouting rubbish

Rubbish. Everyone understands the function of the public service. Too bad you have just such an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

Rubbish. Everyone understands the function of the public service. Too bad you have just such an overwhelming sense of entitlement.

What sense of entitlement have I? And clearly you don't. You've made that abundantly clear over and over again.

addaword

History Queen wrote: »

What sense of entitlement have I?.

You do not understand where the average pension pot of 1.8 million for each retiring Garda comes from.

Again I ask you, why should the taxpayer fund that average pension pot for every retiring Garda? Let them buy it themselves. The average taxpayer paying hard earned money to the government can not afford or does not get such a pension.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

You do not understand where the average pension pot of 1.8 million for each retiring Garda comes from.

I do, you do not. But even if I didn't, that would be ignorance not entitlement. Yet again you are here spouting uninformed rubbish. You either have an axe to grind or are honestly ignorant about how the system, flawed as it is, works. As my father would say "it isn't the ignorant that suffer, it's those around them".

Edit: public servants pay tax too... and pay towards their pensions (much more so on newest pension scheme). This was explained already by another poster on this thread.

coolshannagh28

History Queen wrote: »

Edit: public servants pay tax too... and pay towards their pensions (much more so on newest pension scheme). This was explained already by another poster on this thread.

Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system . I am sure income from other sources like grinds etc is relevant .They make a nominal contribution towards pensions which admittedly has increased but would never fulfil the actual pension and lump sum awarded.

addaword

History Queen wrote: »

I do,

You clearly do not. As has been point out elsewhere, a standard Gardai pension is worth 1.8 million. A standard gardai pension after just 30 years of service of €34,000 with a lump sum of €102,000 is worth the equivalent of €1,799,454. For a worker to purchase the equivalent guaranteed income as a Joint life open market annuity would cost €1,799,454. How much do you think the average Garda retiring this year in their early fifties with a pension pot worth 1.8 million paid towards their pension?

The private sector collects income tax and vat etc to pay to the government.
The government pays it to the public sector, who give a bit of it back to the government with the other hand.

If public service pensions were not so high, the burden on those taxpayers who fund the government would not be as high. Not many in the private sector can afford to have a pension worth 1.8 million, like the average Garda.

blanch152

addaword wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer fund that average pension pot for every retiring Garda? Let them buy it themselves. The average taxpayer paying hard earned money to the government can not afford or does not get such a pension.

You should quote the post in full and address the second point in it, the fact is the taxpayer isn't funding a €1.8m pension pot.

blanch152 wrote: »

€1.8 million is what is costs to buy an individualised pension with all of the attendant cuts taken by pension sellers, insurance companies, actuaries etc as well as the individual risk built in. It is not the same as what it costs a collective pension scheme to provide that pension.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

You clearly do not. As has been point out elsewhere, a standard Gardai pension is worth 1.8 million. A standard gardai pension after just 30 years of service of €34,000 with a lump sum of €102,000 is worth the equivalent of €1,799,454. For a worker to purchase the equivalent guaranteed income as a Joint life open market annuity would cost €1,799,454. How much do you think the average Garda retiring this year in their early fifties with a pension pot worth 1.8 million paid towards their pension?

The private sector collects income tax and vat etc to pay to the government.
The government pays it to the public sector, who give a bit of it back to the government with the other hand.

If public service pensions were not so high, the burden on those taxpayers who fund the government would not be as high. Not many in the private sector can afford to have a pension worth 1.8 million, like the average Garda.

Again you prove your ignorance. My deductions are on my payslip. When calculating my wages I get a net amount not a gross amount same as every PAYE worker, public or private. Public servants get paid by the state but similarly have taxes deducted back from us by the state.

We pay income tax and vat too.... not sure why you think we don't? In fact it is only in the private sector I think that vat can be claimed back by some businesses?

Unless you can explain why the freely available public payscales reflect a gross amount instead of a net amount you cannot claim we don'tpay tax. I'm a teacher and my pension will be approx 12,000 plus state pension so a total of 24,000 per year after 40 years service.

If you want a public service pension so badly join the public service.

Edit: I see your inability to comprehend information (or deliberate twisting of facts) has been pointed out above again...so the figures you repeated ad nauseam aren't the full story...I'm shocked

addaword

blanch152 wrote: »

You should quote the post in full and address the second point in it, the fact is the taxpayer isn't funding a €1.8m pension pot.

A Garda retiring now with his pension pot worth 1.8 million certainly did not contribute that much towards it, given he / she may have only left school and done the leaving cert in 1990. Yes they paid a bit towards it, but not that much.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

A Garda retiring now with his pension pot worth 1.8 million certainly did not contribute that much towards it, given he / she may have only left school and done the leaving cert in 1990. Yes they paid a bit towards it, but not that much.

A Garda retiring now isn't on the pension scheme you are referring to. It changed in 1995.

They also aren't entitled to the state pension of 10k per year.

Why did Gardai pay taxes all those years for your state pension?

Again, why didn't you become a Garda?

Did you make more than the average industrial wage last year?

Will you answer these questions?

All these people complaining about what the public sector have that they don't, but question their career choice and all of a sudden they are making great money and very happy in their careers. Makes me wonder.

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A Garda retiring now isn't on the pension scheme you are referring to. It changed in 1995.

I did not refer to any pension scheme in particular, I said "A Garda retiring now with his pension pot worth 1.8 million certainly did not contribute that much towards it, given he / she may have only left school and done the leaving cert in 1990. Yes they paid a bit towards it, but not that much."

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They also aren't entitled to the state pension of 10k per year.

Aw, pity them, they have a tax free lump sum of 100k and a golden pension
and they and you complain about not getting the ordinary state pension!

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Why did Gardai pay taxes all those years for your state pension?

Well, as someone else said only a few posts ago: "Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system"

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Again, why didn't you become a Garda?

Not the point. I look at the bigger picture. The country cannot afford to have hundreds of thousands of people on golden pensions, paid for by the majority of workers who cannot afford such pensions.

History Queen

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system . I am sure income from other sources like grinds etc is relevant .They make a nominal contribution towards pensions which admittedly has increased but would never fulfil the actual pension and lump sum awarded.

I think you misunderstood Pascal's response. Can you remember when the interview was? I'd like to listen to it. Seems strange that the Finance minister wouldn't understand how basic taxation works.

Get Real

addaword wrote: »

Well, as someone else said only a few posts ago: "Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system"

People don't pay tax now? What's the source on that. I've worked in both private and public sector. Paid tax in both.

Also, nowadays, the public sector has the Single Public service pension scheme. Same terms, across the board.

Want a pension? join public service. Want 350 a day in a contracting job? specialise and work in private sector. Happy enough in the job you're in? Fair play to you.

You can effect change in your career. Both sectors have pros and cons. If you don't want to change, put effort into your current role. Don't let rants and false facts consume you.

addaword

Get Real wrote: »

People don't pay tax now? What's the source on that. I've worked in both private and public sector. Paid tax in both.

Also, nowadays, the public sector has the Single Public service pension scheme. Same terms, across the board.

As explained to you before the private sector collects and submits all the various taxes to the government. The point the minister for finance made was the government pays this money to the public sector and takes some back at the same time : the government may as well just pay a net amount to its workers.

Yes public service workers pay something towards their pensions now, but Gardai do not pay 30,000 or 60,000 a year to their pension pot of 1.8 million over their short 30 year working life.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

As explained to you before the private sector collects and submits all the various taxes to the government. The point the minister for finance made was the government pays this money to the public sector and takes some back at the same time : the government may as well just pay a net amount to its workers.

Yes public service workers pay something towards their pensions now, but Gardai do not pay 30,000 or 60,000 a year to their pension pot of 1.8 million over their short 30 year working life.

But they don't pay a net amount. So public sector workers do pay tax, exactly the same as private sector workers do. Case closed.

addaword

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system . I am sure income from other sources like grinds etc is relevant .They make a nominal contribution towards pensions which admittedly has increased but would never fulfil the actual pension and lump sum awarded.

Well, if the minister for Finance says their tax is "churned around the system", then he should know.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

I did not refer to any pension scheme in particular, I said "A Garda retiring now with his pension pot worth 1.8 million certainly did not contribute that much towards it, given he / she may have only left school and done the leaving cert in 1990. Yes they paid a bit towards it, but not that much."

Aw, pity them, they have a tax free lump sum of 100k and a golden pension
and they and you complain about not getting the ordinary state pension!

Well, as someone else said only a few posts ago: "Highly debateable whether or not they pay tax ;Pat Kenny put this to Paschal recently and there was a defensive response ie their tax is churned around the system"

Not the point. I look at the bigger picture. The country cannot afford to have hundreds of thousands of people on golden pensions, paid for by the majority of workers who cannot afford such pensions.

Is this got for real? The holes in your argument could be used for the port tunnel!

The pension scheme that you refer to for 1.8 million is not the pension scheme that someone that joined before 1995 is on. Only a simpleton wouldn't understand that.

Again, their pensions depends on when they joined and the rank involved. What's 'golden' is personal opinion. Not their fault you are unhappy with your pension plan. Deduct that 10k pension I'm paying for you to get from your future imagined Garda pension and that's the real number. Please do take a little time to explain in detail how you have formed this number including the maths involved.

Don't pay tax? Wow. I think you just made yourself look a right tit with that one. I don't care who asked a question, a secondary school student learns about tax in first year of business studies. Surely you don't really need me to explain why this is absolutely nonsense? Euro for euro i pay more than someone with an equal income in the private sector because we both pay paye, prsi and usc. I also pay a pension Levy that they do not. So please, do explain in detail how you have formed this opinion?

Who can't afford it? Prove your argument. Show the evidence. Been Dunne can. Private solicitors, architects, doctors can afford an equal pension. Who are these workers you refer to?

And as predicted, you ignored the questions. What's your job again and pension plans?

You really should take a break from the hatred and bitterness, it's consuming you.

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

Look at that again you dont pay taxes in both countries I have been scouting this out already I would be paying a lot less taxes in Florida than I do in Ireland. I would be emigrating

bye-bye.

yenom

I used to work in social welfare where you'd see people earning more in welfare than a clerical Officer. I'd have to go away and buy a new washing machine for myself wheras the fellas on the dole for ten years got one for free. That might be a place to start if we're talking about fair cuts.

addaword

yenom wrote: »

I used to work in social welfare where you'd see people earning more in welfare than a clerical Officer. I'd have to go away and buy a new washing machine for myself wheras the fellas on the dole for ten years got one for free. That might be a place to start if we're talking about fair cuts.

That system is designed and administered by people well paid and pensioned by the government, from money from the private sector, which they collected and submitted through income tax, collecting vat,etc, for the government to" churn around" , as the Minister for Fininance said.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

That system is designed and administered by people well paid and pensioned by the government, from money from the private sector, which they collected and submitted through income tax, collecting vat,etc, for the government to" churn around" , as the Minister for Fininance said.

Post the source for the Minister for Finance saying that.

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Who can't afford it? Prove your argument. Show the evidence. Been Dunne can. Private solicitors, architects, doctors can afford an equal pension. Who are these workers you refer to?

The average private sector worker cannot afford a pension like the average Garda has., which is worth 1.8 million. Ben Dunne can, but he is not typical. Even if we take the other people you cherry pick from the private sector, not many solicitors, architects are retiring after only 30 years like Gardai do , even though they were miles ahead of them in school, much brighter and better qualified and hard working on average.

ParkRunner

addaword wrote: »

That system is designed and administered by people well paid and pensioned by the government, from money from the private sector, which they collected and submitted through income tax, collecting vat,etc, for the government to" churn around" , as the Minister for Fininance said.

You do know the public sector generates a significant amount of money (charges for services/licences, securing foreign investment, promoting Ireland as a destination for tourists, students, conferences etc) and many parts are self financing and generating funds which are filtered back to the public purse.The state even also gives contracts for big capital protects to many private contractors which filters into the pension funds of private sector workers. Money gets churned around the economy in many ways

DM1983

blanch152 wrote: »

€1.8 million is what is costs to buy an individualised pension with all of the attendant cuts taken by pension sellers, insurance companies, actuaries etc as well as the individual risk built in. It is not the same as what it costs a collective pension scheme to provide that pension.

Can you back that up? I would be very sceptical. Private pension funds are put to work to grow in value so the final pension pot is far in excess of what's actually paid in. Zurich make 1% per year on my pension fund but grow the value somewhere between 5-10% on average each year. PS pensions are paid out of current expenditure. Not only are they larger in absolute value, it also costs more to deliver them because there is no capital appreciation involved.

Another poster shared a PS document earlier in the thread which showed the cost to "buy" service for a PS pension. The costs are very similar to the private sector - roughly €30k for an annual pension payment of €1k.

kippy

Anyone stating as fact, the public sector do not pay income taxes, should be completely site banned and their internet access revoked for their own safety.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The average private sector worker cannot afford a pension like the average Garda has., which is worth 1.8 million. Ben Dunne can, but he is not typical. Even if we take the other people you cherry pick from the private sector, not many solicitors, architects are retiring after only 30 years like Gardai do , even though they were miles ahead of them in school, much brighter and better qualified and hard working on average.

Your so full of rubbish. You continue to ignore the questions and just repeat the same biased and bitter tripe.

Ben Dunne is not an 'average worker' as you insist on putting it. Neither are Gardai.

Answer the questions put to you,
provide the evidence of your claims.

blanch152

addaword wrote: »

The average private sector worker cannot afford a pension like the average Garda has., which is worth 1.8 million. Ben Dunne can, but he is not typical. Even if we take the other people you cherry pick from the private sector, not many solicitors, architects are retiring after only 30 years like Gardai do , even though they were miles ahead of them in school, much brighter and better qualified and hard working on average.

oh dear, oh dear, still repeating the discredited lies about the 1.8 million pensions?

Solicitors and architects could well afford to retire after 30 years if they weren't greedy, and spending their money on big houses, cars and holidays.

addaword

blanch152 wrote: »

oh dear, oh dear, still repeating the discredited lies about the 1.8 million pensions?

Solicitors and architects could well afford to retire after 30 years if they weren't greedy, and spending their money on big houses, cars and holidays.

Oh dear, oh dear, it was the Irish Times and Irish independent and RTE who reported what the average Garda pension is worth.

I do not know any architects or solicitors who left school in 1990 and who can retire with such a pension pot. I would say most private sector people in that age group have loans on their houses and cars, and cannot afford to fund a pension worth 1.8 million and retire at 49 or 50.