How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

jh79 wrote: »

Doubling down. Ok so. GFA means SF are willing participants until democracy says otherwise. Nobody is stealing money from their pay packet

His taxes also fund the British military as highlighted by Pease D as an expense that wouldn't need to be paid as part of an UI. Pretty certain my taxes don't fund the BA so again what country were you referring too if this wasn't a mistake on your part?

Is the country you are referring to still Ireland?

Yes. Has the country changed?
Ireland is partitioned, illegitimately in my view and I'm pretty sure that is SF's view too.
Rather than continue a war/conflict a compromise was reached called the GFA which did not require my view of that partition to change. I simply accepted that the majority decide. You cannot aspire to unity and think the present circumstance is legitimate.

You can taunt away, it is you who are using all the terminology of the colonised. 'The Queen's schilling' indeed.

BloodyBill wrote: »

Iv no doubt that's true. I'm just saying the country was the 11th richest in the world around 1916. Dublin slums got even worse as did Limericks before they started falling down and finally replaced..we still have horrific areas to this day. The World is a tough place. I think we are abit immature as a Nation.
We reject any of our British past..We say we were as colonised as the Indians. We take no ownership of our part in the British Empire ...as Empire Builders.. stats like 60% of civil servants in Bengal in the 1850s being Irish..half Catholic. It is beyond our ability to see past the victimhood of the famine ,as terrible as it was and realise we arent some special case. Even the Indians dont talk as negatively of their British past as much as we do. It's weird. We are ok with all the poor Irish in the British Army over hundreds of years ( no choice,needed
to put food on the table..,rubbish most joined because they wanted to) ...but as soon as they get to be officer rank we disown them because we Irish cant be Colonisers ..

Up to 1916, all Ireland wanted was Home Rule which was being repeatedly denied by the British Government. Most people joined the British Army because there were few options for them. Michael Collins worked in the British Civil Service in London. I think a lot of the claims were if they did good, they were British, if they did bad, they were Irish. Ernest Shackleton at the time was regarded as British, Tom Crean was Irish and was not recognised as to what he actually achieved until recently because he was working class Irish. Wellington disowned Ireland, not the other way around! Plenty of Irish people volunteered for WWI because Redmond hoped that it would encourage the British Government to grant Home Rule and because some people also thought they were fighting for the rights of small nations like catholic Belgium.

What changed a lot of minds to wanting independence was the attempt by the British Government to introduce conscription in Ireland in 1918.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes. Has the country changed?
Ireland is partitioned, illegitimately in my view and I'm pretty sure that is SF's view too.
Rather than continue a war/conflict a compromise was reached called the GFA which did not require my view of that partition to change. I simply accepted that the majority decide. You cannot aspire to unity and think the present circumstance is legitimate.

You can taunt away, it is you who are using all the terminology of the colonised. 'The Queen's schilling' indeed.

Sure at the end of the day CM has to put food on the table like the rest of us. Principals won't feed the kids.

jh79 wrote: »

Sure at the end of the day CM has to put food on the table like the rest of us. Principals won't feed the kids.

The fact that CM did time for being a member of the IRA suggests that feeding the kids wasn't a primary concern.

jh79 wrote: »

Sure at the end of the day CM has to put food on the table like the rest of us. Principals won't feed the kids.

You need to get over the fact people compromised. It isn't a taunt worth a damn, it just shows your partitionist desperation. It's about all you have tbh.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You need to get over the fact people compromised. It isn't a taunt worth a damn, it just shows your partitionist desperation. It's about all you have tbh.

Desperation? I'm making fun of your mistake. An UI barely gets more than a passing thought down here.

Sure he'll be paying taxes in his country for the rest of his life. Lucky for him, the treshold for the higher rate of tax is much higher in his country than in mine.

jm08 wrote: »

The fact that CM did time for being a member of the IRA suggests that feeding the kids wasn't a primary concern.

Did that come out the way you intended! Everybody has their price i suppose. MLA salaries are pretty impressive, pension must be pretty good too?

BloodyBill

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

By what measurement? The US is the richest place in the world but I wouldn't like to be poor there.

So what? Are you suggesting the Brits would have generously improved them? I say you haven't a clue what you're on about if you did:

The new State got stuck into the housing market straight away with the introduction in 1922 of the excitingly-named Million Pound Scheme. This enabled local authorities to construct 2,000 houses in just two years, most of which were sold to middle-income buyers.

When that fund was exhausted in 1924, grants and subsidies for private house purchase and construction took over, though local authorities continued to build some private houses directly.

irishtimes.com

We reject that British colonialism and those with colonised minds, like you, were anything but a scourge on the vast majority of people in Ireland.

Yes and we should have nothing but remorse for the shameful part we played in it.

Speak for yourself, I consider us survivors not victims.

Nobody claims we are a special case, that's a strawman argument.

Who cares what their motivations were? We were a colonised people and we fortunately rescued ourselves (mostly) from ending up like Wales or Scotland who are burdened by being dependencies of England or worst of all the North of Ireland which is one of the most deprived, and racist, places in Western Europe.

I think you have a colonised mind and this idea that a 'mature' nation must reconcile with its coloniser before its coloniser accepts responsibility and apologises for its crimes is just batshit crazy.

NB: Before the 1920's was out we had started one of the largest hydroelectric schemes on Earth in Shannon. Have some pride, stand up straight, and stop tugging your forelock.

Theres no one with more pride in the achievements of Ireland than me,all our achievementsand not just since 1920. We just have real blind points when looking at our past. I'd say many people would struggle to name great Irish generals in the British army over the last 200 to 300 years. Guys like Gough ,Wellington ect..ect.
The ' North of Ireland'. Its Northern Ireland. You cant even regulate your language, not alone do you weaponise the Irish Language , you weaponise English terms aswell.
Why cant we look at our past and say..'Hey we helped put those railways into India..we designed many of them' or we helped colonise Australia and New Zealand. No instead many eejits try to identify with the plight of Aborigines,as if our stories were similar. Theres nothing more ludicrous than a white northern European trying to claim a link through colonisation with indigenous peoples in Australia or India or wherever. Especially when we were the Colonisers....(under duress of course )

RobMc59

BloodyBill wrote: »

Theres no one with more pride in the achievements of Ireland than me,all our achievementsand not just since 1920. We just have real blind points when looking at our past. I'd say many people would struggle to name great Irish generals in the British army over the last 200 to 300 years. Guys like Gough ,Wellington ect..ect.
The ' North of Ireland'. Its Northern Ireland. You cant even regulate your language, not alone do you weaponise the Irish Language , you weaponise English terms aswell.
Why cant we look at our past and say..'Hey we helped put those railways into India..we designed many of them' or we helped colonise Australia and New Zealand. No instead many eejits try to identify with the plight of Aborigines,as if our stories were similar. Theres nothing more ludicrous than a white northern European trying to claim a link through colonisation with indigenous peoples in Australia or India or wherever. Especially when we were the Colonisers....(under duress of course )

Excellent post,although I'd dispute the 'under duress' comment.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So subservient.

It isn't the 'Queen's shilling' when you pay your taxes and fully contribute to your own community in your own country.

Taking the shilling isn't 'subservient' francie.Normally referring to joining the BA but also being in the employ of Britain.
I stand by my comment Michelle O'Neil appears very comfortable in her role as part of the establishment,its only disgruntled republicans who seem to get wound up by it.

jh79 wrote: »

Did that come out the way you intended! Everybody has their price i suppose. MLA salaries are pretty impressive, pension must be pretty good too?

Last I saw, SF MLAs take £26,000 a year, the rest goes to the party.

Do you think they shouldn't get paid and just claim the dole?

RobMc59 wrote: »

Taking the shilling isn't 'subservient' francie.Normally referring to joining the BA but also being in the employ of Britain.
I stand by my comment Michelle O'Neil appears very comfortable in her role as part of the establishment,its only disgruntled republicans who seem to get wound up by it.

I have to say 'so what?' to this.

I mean, it would have some importance if the UK was some bastion of security and unitedness.
In my view the UK was fatally holed by the GFA. The tacitly withdrew by signing it.
Westminster can't fart in Ireland without the approval of Dublin and were further sundered when they tried it on the European stage...only further damaging their own Union in the attempt.

Plus, I don't think any nationalist in the north is going to lose any sleep if NI cost the British an absolute fortune...why would they?

jm08 wrote: »

Last I saw, SF MLAs take £26,000 a year, the rest goes to the party.

Do you think they shouldn't get paid and just claim the dole?

You're a very naive person if you believe they only take 26k. His comrades in the Republic have a lot of flexibility on how much of their wages they give back to the party. Gerry manages to run two households on his salary / pension.

Of course they deserve to get paid for serving their country.

BloodyBill wrote: »

Theres no one with more pride in the achievements of Ireland than me,all our achievementsand not just since 1920. We just have real blind points when looking at our past. I'd say many people would struggle to name great Irish generals in the British army over the last 200 to 300 years. Guys like Gough ,Wellington ect..ect.
The ' North of Ireland'. Its Northern Ireland. You cant even regulate your language, not alone do you weaponise the Irish Language , you weaponise English terms aswell.
Why cant we look at our past and say..'Hey we helped put those railways into India..we designed many of them' or we helped colonise Australia and New Zealand. No instead many eejits try to identify with the plight of Aborigines,as if our stories were similar. Theres nothing more ludicrous than a white northern European trying to claim a link through colonisation with indigenous peoples in Australia or India or wherever. Especially when we were the Colonisers....(under duress of course )

Wellington disowned Ireland.
Gough was born in England, spent years in India (father in British Army), back to England, went to Eton. His family was of a typical Anglo-Irish family who was proud of his Waterford/Irish heritage, but spent little of his time here so would not have been known that well.

On the other side of the coin, you have Spike Milligan. Born in India to an Irish father and English mother and denied British citizenship, and had to take out Irish citizenship. Thats how the British Crown treated its loyal colonial servants.

As for Australia - you do know that most of the Irish that went there were deported or women given their passage so that they could breed children for the British Empire.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have to say 'so what?' to this.

I mean, it would have some importance if the UK was some bastion of security and unitedness.
In my view the UK was fatally holed by the GFA. The tacitly withdrew by signing it.
Westminster can't fart in Ireland without the approval of Dublin and were further sundered when they tried it on the European stage...only further damaging their own Union in the attempt.

Plus, I don't think any nationalist in the north is going to lose any sleep if NI cost the British an absolute fortune...why would they?

The GDP of the UK is 2.855 trillion, NI is 43 billion. It's hardly a fortune in relative terms. On the other hand the Republic's GDP is 330 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Australians

RobMc59 wrote: »

Excellent post,although I'd dispute the 'under duress' comment.

You are wrong on the duress point.

They (Irish) came to Australia from the late eighteenth century as criminals but most were prisoners of war, mainly those who fought in the 1798 Irish rebellion for independence and settlers who could not find a life during the Irish famine and the harsh years in Ireland afterwards.

jh79 wrote: »

The GDP of the UK is 2.855 trillion, NI is 43 billion. It's hardly a fortune in relative terms. On the other hand the Republic's GDP is 330 billion.

Sure...nobody gives out about the share out of wealth in the UK. They are all happy with queenie sitting in her castles holding on to her schilling while they wallow obediently in various states of poverty and deprivation.

Jaysus jh review the subservient, hat doffing, awestruck smoke blowing.

jh79 wrote: »

The GDP of the UK is 2.855 trillion, NI is 43 billion. It's hardly a fortune in relative terms. On the other hand the Republic's GDP is 330 billion.

Per head is probably a better way to look at it. UK 2019 - 42,385$. (GNI 2018 $41,330).
Ireland is double GDP that at 2019 - 79,259$ (GNI 2018 - $61,210).

Spon Farmer

Does anyone really want "reunification"?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sure...nobody gives out about the share out of wealth in the UK. They are all happy with queenie sitting in her castles holding on to her schilling while they wallow obediently in various states of poverty and deprivation.

Jaysus jh review the subservient, hat doffing, awestruck smoke blowing.

Francie, I couldn't give a damn what the British do with their money. If they want a Monarch as a head of state that's their business.

The British economy can well afford to absorb the cost of NI no matter how bad it gets. It has no bearing on the prospects of an UI. It's the Irish economy you need to worry about.

downcow

BloodyBill wrote: »

Theres no one with more pride in the achievements of Ireland than me,all our achievementsand not just since 1920. We just have real blind points when looking at our past. I'd say many people would struggle to name great Irish generals in the British army over the last 200 to 300 years. Guys like Gough ,Wellington ect..ect.
The ' North of Ireland'. Its Northern Ireland. You cant even regulate your language, not alone do you weaponise the Irish Language , you weaponise English terms aswell.
Why cant we look at our past and say..'Hey we helped put those railways into India..we designed many of them' or we helped colonise Australia and New Zealand. No instead many eejits try to identify with the plight of Aborigines,as if our stories were similar. Theres nothing more ludicrous than a white northern European trying to claim a link through colonisation with indigenous peoples in Australia or India or wherever. Especially when we were the Colonisers....(under duress of course )

Another excellent post.
I just think it is really interesting that you have opened up a whole new window to me. I haven't really considered this angle.
Why I appreciate it so much is because it reinforces my belief that this continual raking over the past and trying to convince ourselves that the other side was to blame for everything, is really disabling us moving forward.
We really do need to park the past, and especially stuff that is not even in living memory. We need to move forward from here. It is what it is.
This is Northern Ireland, part of the UK. We have agreed to the GFA which does mean that if the majority want it, we will become a united island.
This is the point we need to start from.
If some people want to try and negotiate a new agreement to replace the GFA, then that's fine - I think they have little hope mind you.
If the United Island ever happens, then those of us who are interested can campaign for a separate state, or anything else we wish.

jm08 wrote: »

Per head is probably a better way to look at it. UK 2019 - 42,385$. (GNI 2018 $41,330).
Ireland is double GDP that at 2019 - 79,259$ (GNI 2018 - $61,210).

You also need to take into account the actual populations too. Adding 2 million people to a population of 6 million is obviously going to have a larger effect.

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, I couldn't give a damn what the British do with their money. If they want a Monarch as a head of state that's their business.

The British economy can well afford to absorb the cost of NI no matter how bad it gets. It has no bearing on the prospects of an UI. It's the Irish economy you need to worry about.

You carry on believing and hat doffing JH, I will carry on looking at the deterioration and break up of the UK and how best Ireland can insulate itself and take advantage of it.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You carry on believing and hat doffing JH, I will carry on looking at the deterioration and break up of the UK and how best Ireland can insulate itself and take advantage of it.

How is it hat doffing? Britain doesn't concern me at all, it just happens to be a larger country with a bigger economy meaning the economies of scale are different. They will always be able to afford NI. The Republic on the other hand will always struggle to fund an UI due to its smaller size. No point burying your head in the sand that is the reality of the situation.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You carry on believing and hat doffing JH, I will carry on looking at the deterioration and break up of the UK and how best Ireland can insulate itself and take advantage of it.

Doffing hat
Featured snippet from the web
A hat tip is an act of tipping or (especially in British English) doffing one's hat as a cultural expression of recognition, respect, gratitude, or simple salutation and acknowledgement between two persons.

Well SF MLA's now recognize the sovereignty of NI as part of the UK and i'm sure they are thankful for their salaries in return for serving their country.

jh79 wrote: »

How is it hat doffing? Britain doesn't concern me at all, it just happens to be a larger country with a bigger economy meaning the economies of scale are different. They will always be able to afford NI. The Republic on the other hand will always struggle to fund an UI due to its smaller size. No point burying your head in the sand that is the reality of the situation.

The whole tone of your posting sounds like you are hat doffing. The idea that by compromising and working an agreement that humbled the UK into treating 'Irish' people as equal is somehow taking the 'queens schilling'. I mean what kind of subservient nonsense is that for any self respecting Irish person to come out with?

Also you complete ignorance of the pressures on the UK economy and regional spending...are you living in some sort of bubble? They are already making swingeing cuts to the Northern Ireland subvention that is bringing pressure to bear.
Also the idea that 2 million people are necessarily always going to be a burden, they are earners, have potential and can be net contributors to society.

Your self deprecation is tedious.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The whole tone of your posting sounds like you are hat doffing. The idea that by compromising and working an agreement that humbled the UK into treating 'Irish' people as equal is somehow taking the 'queens schilling'. I mean what kind of subservient nonsense is that for any self respecting Irish person to come out with?

Also you complete ignorance of the pressures on the UK economy and regional spending...are you living in some sort of bubble? They are already making swingeing cuts to the Northern Ireland subvention that is bringing pressure to bear.
Also the idea that 2 million people are necessarily always going to be a burden, they are earners, have potential and can be net contributors to society.

Your self deprecation is tedious.

Francie, i'm making fun of your deluded interpretation of the GFA (tacit withdrawal and all that nonsense - no IRA means no need for the army ffs). It was a massive capitulation on the behalf of SF / IRA.

Are you living in bubble when it comes to the size of the Irish economy and it ability to fund such a huge endeavor? Ireland will be making massive cuts in the not too distant future too. Deficit already at 6 billion for this year.

Also i never said NI would always be a burden but the required investment would be huge due to years of neglect.

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, i'm making fun of your deluded interpretation of the GFA (tacit withdrawal and all that nonsense - no IRA means no need for the army ffs). It was a massive capitulation on the behalf of SF / IRA.

So why didn't Britain deliver in 69 or 59, 49, etc? They shored up the Unionist sectarian bigoted state for 30 years and then their 'Iron Lady' capitulated, knived the Unionists in the back by signing the Anglo Irish agreement and went on and delivered the GFA. Yet the non self deprecating, non hat doffing Irish man/woman thinks all that was a 'massive capitulation by SF and the IRA.

Are you living in bubble when it comes to the size of the Irish economy and it ability to fund such a huge endeavor? Ireland will be making massive cuts in the not too distant future too. Deficit already at 6 billion for this year.

Also i never said NI would always be a burden but the required investment would be huge due to years of neglect.

The world will have to re-adjust after Covid, it has had to do it many times. Not sure what your point is. Nobody is suggesting a UI tomorrow.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why didn't Britain deliver in 69 or 59, 49, etc? They shored up the Unionist sectarian bigoted state for 30 years and then their 'Iron Lady' capitulated, knived the Unionists in the back by signing the Anglo Irish agreement and went on and delivered the GFA. Yet the non self deprecating, non hat doffing Irish man/woman thinks all that was a 'massive capitulation by SF and the IRA.

The world will have to re-adjust after Covid, it has had to do it many times. Not sure what your point is. Nobody is suggesting a UI tomorrow.

Facilitating partition is a huge capitulation for SF/IRA.

Ireland is a relativity small country even without COVID, an UI is a big ask, financially speaking.

Have you come across any realistic proposals on where this money will come from?

Add to that , prior to COVID , an UI was never a big concern for those in the Republic. Really think voters will allow the government to divert money from health and housing to just maintain the NI economy never mind invest for an extended period to stimulate growth?

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/02/08/news/republic-s-voters-don-t-regard-irish-unity-as-a-major-election-issue-1836987/