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Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Lord TSC

Old thread here.

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Furious-Red

leggo wrote: »

I don’t like McGregor, but both sides have already admitted that they’ve offered him a blank cheque essentially. For better or worse with the business he’d bring they’d adjust to fit him in.

If he does sign i can nearly picture his first match would be a WM against HHH

leggo

I don’t like McGregor, but both sides have already admitted that they’ve offered him a blank cheque essentially. For better or worse with the business he’d bring they’d adjust to fit him in.

Lithium93_

PTH2009 wrote: »

I wonder will we see Connor McGregor in the wwe since he's retired from the UFC

"Retired", 3rd time he's pulled this stunt, he'll be back when the money's right for him.

As for him in the WWE, with his motormouth style? Vince and Kevin Dunn would be sweating bullets.

PTH2009

I wonder will we see Connor McGregor in the wwe since he's retired from the UFC

CastorTroy

They used to do it for the big 4 then have 1 or 2 others due to the gap between Mania and Summerslam

PTH2009

J. Marston wrote: »

Thought Takeover was on tonight. Annoying that they've changed them to Sunday nights also.

Would be nice if they had done IYH and Backlash the same weekend

IYH- Saturday
Backlash- Sunday

Not to be but at least its 2 sundays with something on

ThePott

J. Marston wrote: »

Thought Takeover was on tonight. Annoying that they've changed them to Sunday nights also.

Same boat as you spent half the last few days trying to catch up on NXT and only realised when I saw the announcement from DX that I had an extra day.
Much prefer the Saturday PPVs tbh.

J. Marston

Thought Takeover was on tonight. Annoying that they've changed them to Sunday nights also.

Itssoeasy

Lithium93_ wrote: »

That story Stu Bennett told (on his tour with Kenny & Inside The Ropes) of how they were supposed to go over at Summerslam 2010, but Cena pulled rank or something, still irks me to this day, they had something potentially great on their hands with The Nexus, and it went tits up.

Slight correction, was Vince who said it was Cena going over, cause Vince wanted the kids to go home happy, which is rubbish, considering how the next 6 Summerslams would go off the air.

2011 ended with a heel cash in
2012 Ended with Lesnar destroying HHH
2013 ended with a heel cash in
2014 ended with Lesnar destroying Cena
2015 ended with undertaker cheating to win
2016 ended with Lesnar destroying Shane and Orton

Yeah the vince reasoning about wanting to send the kids home happy, I mean stevie wonder could see that was rubbish. I never disliked cena the way some people did at the time but stories like that and other stuff after the fact have made me like him less. He's all about the positivity which is great if the sentiment behind it is genuine and I don't think it is with him. I don't think he's a bad person on the whole but he's not all sunshine and rainbows as he likes to make himself look like.

Lithium93_

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Ten years tomorrow the nexus debuted on raw and helped the ring crew get the ring dismantled quicker. The nexus was a really cool idea but when cena was politicking against them then it was never going to work how it should.

That story Stu Bennett told (on his tour with Kenny & Inside The Ropes) of how they were supposed to go over at Summerslam 2010, but Cena pulled rank or something, still irks me to this day, they had something potentially great on their hands with The Nexus, and it went tits up.

Slight correction, was Vince who said it was Cena going over, cause Vince wanted the kids to go home happy, which is rubbish, considering how the next 6 Summerslams would go off the air.

2011 ended with a heel cash in
2012 Ended with Lesnar destroying HHH
2013 ended with a heel cash in
2014 ended with Lesnar destroying Cena
2015 ended with undertaker cheating to win
2016 ended with Lesnar destroying Shane and Orton

Itssoeasy

Ten years tomorrow the nexus debuted on raw and helped the ring crew get the ring dismantled quicker. The nexus was a really cool idea but when cena was politicking against them then it was never going to work how it should.

ThePott

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY2wB5JImsE

This is the greatest thing I've ever seen and I don't know why I haven't seen it before.

Itssoeasy

Just rewatched the war games match from wrestlewar 1992 again and it's still holds up so well. Steve Austin is the MVP, along with everyone else playing their parts superbly.

RollieFingers

People like what they like, there's so many promotions around that are easily accessible that there is a type of pro wrestling available for fans to watch whatever style they enjoy.

Your 'character ****', storyline driven type of wrestling is most obviously provided by WWE and on a smaller scale by IMPACT and the NWA.

Now whether the stuff they do like having a game of bowling between two tag teams, car accidents and hackers disrupting the show is any good is another question, but fans who want that type of wrestling show are catered for.

You say wrestling is not about the moves. It's not all about the moves but I don't think that's correct.

Was wrestling not about the moves back then when you had classics like the Flair/Steamboat trilogy, Savage/Steamboat, Luger & Sting/Steiners and Bulldog/Hart, all remembered as some of the greatest wrestling matches of that period, without even delving into late 80s NJPW or the AJPW golden era of the 90s.

The style of pro wrestling I enjoy most is competition based, as in tournaments, cups, leagues etc. The G1, the Best of the Super Juniors, the Battle of Los Angeles, the Champion Carnival, the British J Cup etc., and structured stuff like the AEW rankings, which I know is not perfect, but I enjoy it, as I enjoyed the old WCW rankings.

Hardcore wrestling fans have stuff like CZW, DDT is there for people who like the more whacky style of pro wrestling.

I think there's a hint of rose tinted glasses about WCCW. Is the Freebirds/Von Erichs a truly fantastic wrestling feud? Yes, and they had some great stuff involving Adams, Brody and Parsons. Is the stuff involving Lance Von Erich, Bugsy McGraw and Rufus R Jones great? I would say no. The Texas heyday was what, over 35 years ago, wrestling is obviously going to change and evolve over that time period.

So I just think if you enjoy pro wrestling you can find something you enjoy in what is on offer in 2020. I respectfully disagree with your shouts that wrestling is not about the moves and modern wrestling sucks.

LineOfBeauty

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Where they?
They were a direct clone of The Rock and Roll Express. WWF's version. Based on one of the most successful tag teams of all time.
Not only that but The Rockers produced one of the biggest stars of all time being Shawn Michaels.

If you meant if they were around today would they be considered such spot monkies? ... Then Young Bucks have to be mentioned.

yet they did it better back in the day. Perhaps its a comment on micro-management of producers or current style.
Oh and Arnie was kicking ass back in the 80s with movies and today Vin Diesel is. Still stories. (not telling a story)

Character sh*t puts more asses in seats that any athletic move. Wrestling is funny like that. The Rock sold more PPV's with his promos than his in-ring ability. Wrestling is not about the moves strangely enough.

I'm talking about WCCW .... one of the hottest, face-paced wrestling promotions of the 80s. Not that old school "lets do nothing" stuff tho. Have you seen WCCW?

But see that bit i put in bold? give it a few years and come back to me - It aint about the moves baby

For a first hand source Shawn talks about it in his book while they were with the AWA. Again, wrestling evolves and what's considered too flashy in the early to mid 80s isn't the same as 2020. Also I didn't say they were spot monkeys, just that some insider and outsider circles may have considered them to be exactly that, in the same way I don't consider The Young Bucks to be spot monkeys either.

But you can have more than 1 type of story. There's no one right way to lay out a tag match. Obviously you like that hot tag formula the most but there's absolutely a place for variety and innovation. Taue/Kawada vs Misawa/Kobashi 1995 is widely considered the greatest tag match ever (maybe the greatest match ever) but it doesn't follow the match layout you gave. Obviously that's an extreme point but sticking to one formula, whether it's done better or not, is mine numbing.

Never argued that story and characters is what sells tickets and ppvs and never will. When they get you in the building / in front of a TV then you want what you're watching to be good, to follow the story and to have consequences.

Yes I've seen WCCW but it loses a bit of the magic on rewatch rather than seeing it in the moment. I'm not here to bang on WCCW but everything has a time and a place. There's a ceiling on how far a guy working a dirty southern heel gimmick can go in wrestling (an even lower ceiling if he's playing it like he's working shows from the 80's). There's certainly no right way to lay out tag matches. AJPW early to mid 90s is heavily influenced by the territory American wrestling but the in ring is updated for a modern audience and you end up with probably the best tag output in wrestling history.

Anyway point ultimately being things evolve for a reason.

B.A._Baracus

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Rockers would've been considered flashy and overly reliant on high spots in certain quarters during the era you're yearning for.

Where they?
They were a direct clone of The Rock and Roll Express. WWF's version. Based on one of the most successful tag teams of all time.
Not only that but The Rockers produced one of the biggest stars of all time being Shawn Michaels.

If you meant if they were around today would they be considered such spot monkies? ... Then Young Bucks have to be mentioned.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Literally you've laid out practically every tag match that takes place on WWE television and has done for decades. It's the same cookie cutter formula you've seen several times every week for at least 20 years. It's so formulaic that it's numbed it's audience.

yet they did it better back in the day. Perhaps its a comment on micro-management of producers or current style.
Oh and Arnie was kicking ass back in the 80s with movies and today Vin Diesel is. Still stories. (not telling a story)

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

That heel spot genuinely unless we are transported back 50 years into the American mid South that really isn't going to play.

Character sh*t puts more asses in seats that any athletic move. Wrestling is funny like that. The Rock sold more PPV's with his promos than his in-ring ability. Wrestling is not about the moves strangely enough.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

You can accept that wrestling and wider culture with it has evolved or you can wish for a bygone era that had it's heyday before many of us were born or can remember.

There's things I'd change or modify in some modern wrestling but thinking an NWA nostalgia act works in 2020 isn't it.

I'm talking about WCCW .... one of the hottest, face-paced wrestling promotions of the 80s. Not that old school "lets do nothing" stuff tho. Have you seen WCCW?

But see that bit i put in bold? give it a few years and come back to me

- It aint about the moves baby

LineOfBeauty

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Spot on about the apron spots.
Sure one could argue they have a place but when it's been over-used and thus over exposed, then whats the point. As you say it's hard. Very hard.
Like, lets be honest 99% of wrestling fans will never know how hard they are and as each time they see such a spot that "factor" will get lost. Doing such a spot at a big event as mania once a year? sure. Doing it in front of 50 people in a high school gym? hell no :pac:

On the whole subject of old-school wrestling vs modern wrestling. I do miss the old. Like what happened? I get that things need to change but this much?
Take a classic Rockers match. Great way to showcase how to work and tell a story.
Jennety and Michaels were kings at it. Start the match >> go into the babyface shine >> then they loved to powder the heels. Crowd went wild... "yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!" :pac:

heels regroup on the outside. Then back in and either work for a minute then cut them (rockers) off, then into the heat. Slow the pace down. Like a great action movie you start out strong then bring the pace down.

On that subject even heels aren't what they used to be?
when was the last time you saw a heel blatantly cheat and when the ref gives them sh*t they go "i didn't do anything mr referee. mr jim smith or what ever you name is. I go to church on sundays. Momma told me never to cheat" :pac: - then when the ref turns around they give a dirty look and half cock the hand .. then go on to the heel heat.

I cannot even tell what the heel heat is anymore in certain matches :pac: Seems everyone wants to be 50/50 and have a back and fourth match. Sure that has a place, not every single match tho.

Sure without a heat, there is no hope spot. Without a heat there is no comeback. Without a comeback how can you have a false finish. Urgh. I duuno

(for the record I am not trying to come off as a know-it-all. Just there has been something lost in translation over the years)

Rockers would've been considered flashy and overly reliant on high spots in certain quarters during the era you're yearning for.

Literally you've laid out practically every tag match that takes place on WWE television and has done for decades. It's the same cookie cutter formula you've seen several times every week for at least 20 years. It's so formulaic that it's numbed it's audience.

That heel spot genuinely unless we are transported back 50 years into the American mid South that really isn't going to play.

You can accept that wrestling and wider culture with it has evolved or you can wish for a bygone era that had it's heyday before many of us were born or can remember.

There's things I'd change or modify in some modern wrestling but thinking an NWA nostalgia act works in 2020 isn't it.

Itssoeasy

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Yeah, sorry.
I guess I am passionate about this subject and have too much to say :pac:

You're old school BA you call it in the ring as they say.

B.A._Baracus

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a long post but I agree with the majority.

Yeah, sorry.
I guess I am passionate about this subject and have too much to say :pac:

[Deleted User]

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Second that. I know Jim cornette has said some awful ****e in relation to many things including ranting about politics but when he calms down and goes into the details of wrestling and the psychology of things and when he breaks down wrestling tv and how that's done well it's an amazing listen. Also his deep dives on territories he was in are great because Jim cornette kept the receipts on everything. I compare the change in wrestling to a house and over the years it's updated and modernised but the four walls are up. I mean modern wrestling can work within those four walls, you don't need to knock them down.

I'm definitely a lot more modern in my love of wrestling but the 'modern' modern stuff just passes me by, I don't get it.

When I was getting ready for school I used to love the 80s stuff that'd be repeated on Sky Sports in the morning. I watched that in my early-mid teens, after the Attitude Era and, while the Attitude Era will always be my number one, the 80s stuff is way better than any of the modern stuff to me.

Itssoeasy

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a long post but I agree with the majority.

Second that. I know Jim cornette has said some awful ****e in relation to many things including ranting about politics but when he calms down and goes into the details of wrestling and the psychology of things and when he breaks down wrestling tv and how that's done well it's an amazing listen. Also his deep dives on territories he was in are great because Jim cornette kept the receipts on everything. I compare the change in wrestling to a house and over the years it's updated and modernised but the four walls are up. I mean modern wrestling can work within those four walls, you don't need to knock them down.

[Deleted User]

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Spot on about the apron spots.

That's a long post but I agree with the majority.

[Deleted User]

PTH2009 wrote: »

What past WWE stables could be reimagined for todays market ?

DX and NWO suited there time
Nation of Domination could work today but could be a little bit too controversial
Evolution 2020
There was talk of a Nexus type group returning

AEW deff wins on modern day Wrestling stables

Which is by no means a compliment.

B.A._Baracus

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I also am not a fan of some of the staples of modern wrestling. I wish the crap that happens on the ring apron never became a thing. The apron is the hardest part of a wrestling ring and Powerbombing someone on it isn't necessary. I don't want any wrestler to be hurt anywhere so I hate unnecessary risks been taken.

Spot on about the apron spots.
Sure one could argue they have a place but when it's been over-used and thus over exposed, then whats the point. As you say it's hard. Very hard.
Like, lets be honest 99% of wrestling fans will never know how hard they are and as each time they see such a spot that "factor" will get lost. Doing such a spot at a big event as mania once a year? sure. Doing it in front of 50 people in a high school gym? hell no :pac:

On the whole subject of old-school wrestling vs modern wrestling. I do miss the old. Like what happened? I get that things need to change but this much?
Take a classic Rockers match. Great way to showcase how to work and tell a story.
Jennety and Michaels were kings at it. Start the match >> go into the babyface shine >> then they loved to powder the heels. Crowd went wild... "yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!" :pac:

heels regroup on the outside. Then back in and either work for a minute then cut them (rockers) off, then into the heat. Slow the pace down. Like a great action movie you start out strong then bring the pace down.

On that subject even heels aren't what they used to be?
when was the last time you saw a heel blatantly cheat and when the ref gives them sh*t they go "i didn't do anything mr referee. mr jim smith or what ever you name is. I go to church on sundays. Momma told me never to cheat" :pac: - then when the ref turns around they give a dirty look and half cock the hand .. then go on to the heel heat.

I cannot even tell what the heel heat is anymore in certain matches :pac: Seems everyone wants to be 50/50 and have a back and fourth match. Sure that has a place, not every single match tho.

Sure without a heat, there is no hope spot. Without a heat there is no comeback. Without a comeback how can you have a false finish. Urgh. I duuno

(for the record I am not trying to come off as a know-it-all. Just there has been something lost in translation over the years)

J. Marston

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Sunny let off some mad racist tweets as well.

Then offered people of colour a discount to her OnlyFans account.

Heart of gold...

Checked her Onlyfans profile and it says she has 2200 fans and charges $30 per month for her content (Anyone who watched OSW's "Sunny Side Up" knows what that might entail).

That's $66k a month! Even if the site takes a chunk that's still outrageous money.

Agent Coulson

Sunny let off some mad racist tweets as well.

Then offered people of colour a discount to her OnlyFans account.

I might even give a discount to those of color to show I’m NOT racist

PTH2009

What past WWE stables could be reimagined for todays market ?

DX and NWO suited there time
Nation of Domination could work today but could be a little bit too controversial
Evolution 2020
There was talk of a Nexus type group returning

AEW deff wins on modern day Wrestling stables

CastorTroy

Had to laugh at the latest Impact. Their Flashback match was Drew as world champion versus Lashley. I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

Itssoeasy

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

You are correct.
It's all good fundamentals and having good solid fundamentals (along with a decent body) is enough to get signed today. In my opinion at least.

On that subject I think solid fundamentals are a lost art today. It's all about fast paced matches with a 1001 moves. Guess I am talking about non-WWE (njpw, roh, aew, indys etc) There's no time to digest moves. I guess this could also be about working too.

Take Savage as you mentioned, he could grab a guy and toss him in the corner and those punches would register more than tackle / dropdown / leapfrog / armdrag / armdrag / double standoff.
A modern wrestler should still be able to go these days to a high standard but often it's too much.

I was watching World Class Championship Wrestling (WCCW) from the 80's recently and everything is amazing. Good fast paced style that could even work today but everyone has amazing fundamentals. Everything registers. They are telling the story without over-bombarding people.

Of course there are many great wrestlers out there. But as a whole, over-all it's that pesky boom boom boom throughout the whole match.

I went and actually checked on Scott halls punches after I posted that last night because I was worried I was looking at it through rose tinted glasses, and thankfully his punches were very good but also you'd forget how strong he was.

I think most modern wrestling has gotten away to varying degrees from the basic tenant of pro wrestling, which is you are telling a story which you want the fans to believe. That has nothing to do with whether fans believe it's real or not, it's about being able to suspend your disbelief. I for the most part find it hard to suspend my disbelief how I used to fifteen, twenty years ago.

I also am not a fan of some of the staples of modern wrestling. I wish the crap that happens on the ring apron never became a thing. The apron is the hardest part of a wrestling ring and Powerbombing someone on it isn't necessary. I don't want any wrestler to be hurt anywhere so I hate unnecessary risks been taken.

[Deleted User]