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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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HartsHat

fliball123 wrote: »

So you agree they dont cover the full cost thanks for clearing that up. Let them pay the full cost

Why? When I was in the Private Sector, my employer covered a significant amount of my pensions through contributions. Then the public sector also covered an even more significant portion through tax breaks?

Nobody pays the full cost of their own pension.

The State subsidies everyone's. If your employer isn't covering yours you have to ask, why not?

HerrKuehn

HartsHat wrote: »

Why? When I was in the Private Sector, my employer covered a significant amount of my pensions through contributions. Then the public sector also covered an even more significant portion through tax breaks?

Nobody pays the full cost of their own pension.

The State subsidies everyone's. If your employer isn't covering yours you have to ask, why not?

I pay far more than the cost of my own state pension each year. By that I mean in one year of work the state receives more in PRSI from me than the yearly pension pays out.

HerrKuehn

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Do people understand how many deductions there are in the PS?

Once you earn over 40k your marginal tax rate us about 60%

People like to throw around figures like 50-60k in the PS and mask it as a massive wage, I can confirm it is not

I get a contribution from my company of approx €200 per month. I put €1500 per month into my pension. I don't regard this as "tax". Why dont public sector workers get their unions to make it optional to take part in the defined benefit pension? Then of course the pension contribution would be optional.

[Deleted User]

thenightman wrote: »

988 as average public service wages per week is ridiculous. That figure is pushed up enormously by the high wage grades like AP, PO & Ast Secretary. There are very few post 2011 workers (already on reduced wages and far worse pension compared to colleagues performing same role) who will see anywhere near that money for a decade or two. I've recently been promoted after 3 years as a CO to EO, and won't come near that for 12 years.

That number also includes allowances and overtime for Gardai, etc.

The private comparison, once again ignored all the part-time staff, under 18s working weekend jobs outside of the minimum wage and nose importantly, that the millionaires don't declare their incomes publicly as they are not required to.

That will all be ignored by the next public sector bashing comment as addaworld continues to do

[Deleted User]

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I get a contribution from my company of approx €200 per month. I put €1500 per month into my pension. I don't regard this as "tax". Why dont public sector workers get their unions to make it optional to take part in the defined benefit pension? Then of course the pension contribution would be optional.

I don't see that poster claiming it's tax either however I am surprised that your company share is so little. Most company schemes match the staff.

Do however notev that your private pension contributions are tax deductible

HerrKuehn

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I don't see that poster claiming it's tax either however I am surprised that your company share is so little. Most company schemes match the staff.

Do however notev that your private pension contributions are tax deductible

In 20 years of working in tech companies, I have never had a defined benefit pension. Normally it is a percent of salary, typically 5% in my experience. My current company caps the contribution at 5% of a fairly low salary.

Its also worth mentioning that the employer contribution is before PRSI and USC. My own contribution is taken after these have been deducted, so it isn't tax free making employee contributions. This is something that has been brought in during the last recession. I think employer contributions should be treated the same as employee contributions from a tax perspective. The reason this wasn't brought in was it would disproportionately affect the public sector. The pension situation here is rubbish for private sector workers. To be perfectly honest if they made it any worse, by say capping the tax free rate at 20% or something, I would work abroad.

I think a lot of public sector workers think everyone gets great pension contributions in the private sector, but it hasn't been my experience. I suppose some of the old fashioned type companies that were traditional kind of linked to the public sector, like banks, managed to keep the defined benefit pension going for a while. I haven't worked for any of them.

[Deleted User]

HerrKuehn wrote: »

In 20 years of working in tech companies, I have never had a defined benefit pension. Normally it is a percent of salary, typically 5% in my experience. My current company caps the contribution at 5% of a fairly low salary.

Its also worth mentioning that the employer contribution is before PRSI and USC. My own contribution is taken after these have been deducted, so it isn't tax free making employee contributions. This is something that has been brought in during the last recession. I think employer contributions should be treated the same as employee contributions from a tax perspective. The reason this wasn't brought in was it would disproportionately affect the public sector. The pension situation here is rubbish for private sector workers. To be perfectly honest if they made it any worse, by say capping the tax free rate at 20% or something, I would work abroad.

I think a lot of public sector workers think everyone gets great pension contributions in the private sector, but it hasn't been my experience. I suppose some of the old fashioned type companies that were traditional kind of linked to the public sector, like banks, managed to keep the defined benefit pension going for a while. I haven't worked for any of them.

It's really not my issue if you have a bad pension scheme. Try to get a better one.

You get tax relief on pension contributions, if you don't understand how that works, again that's on you. I'm not your financial advisor.

It all boils down to one simple reality. I am still very much needed in the current climate, it anything we need to recruit more staff. My pension was agreed long before I joined. You could have and still can apply to the public sector. Your career choices aren't my concern nor do I see fit to try and convince your employer, which I pay as a customer, to reduce your safety and benefits.

HerrKuehn

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It's really not my issue if you have a bad pension scheme. Try to get a better one.

You get tax relief on pension contributions, if you don't understand how that works, again that's on you. I'm not your financial advisor.

It all boils down to one simple reality. I am still very much needed in the current climate, it anything we need to recruit more staff. My pension was agreed long before I joined. You could have and still can apply to the public sector. Your career choices aren't my concern nor do I see fit to try and convince your employer, which I pay as a customer, to reduce your safety and benefits.

Well, you don't pay anything to my company as a customer. We don't have customers, it isn't that type of business. My career choices have worked out very well thanks. I haven't been calling for any reduction in your conditions either, if you look through my previous posts. My point is really based on the tax system and the situation the government has for private pensions. If they look to massively increase taxes again or increase the cost to saving for a pension, i'm done.
The current situation has shown that all I really need is internet and a computer to do my job.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

The likes of fliball would have public servants breaking rocks for a dollar a day if they could.

It doesnt matter what I say or what you say. The fact is in 2008 when we hit the crash the numbers were not as bad and public sector pay had to be cut. 2020 the numbers will be a hell of a lot worse and if we go into a depression you can be guaranteed that the ps will have to have a pay cut. Its simple maths I dont understand how anyone doesnt get this we are already 200billion in the hole with an addtional 30billion forcast. What if we have a few boughts of Covid and the lads who are temporary on the dole dont get their jobs back..Do you think we can continue paying what we are paying with 25% less people working. I dont think so

tayto lover

fliball123 wrote: »

It doesnt matter what I say or what you say. The fact is in 2008 when we hit the crash the numbers were not as bad and public sector pay had to be cut. 2020 the numbers will be a hell of a lot worse and if we go into a depression you can be guaranteed that the ps will have to have a pay cut. Its simple maths I dont understand how anyone doesnt get this we are already 200billion in the hole with an addtional 30billion forcast. What if we have a few boughts of Covid and the lads who are temporary on the dole dont get their jobs back..Do you think we can continue paying what we are paying with 25% less people working. I dont think so

The PS have learned a lot from 2008.
Very little was restored to them.
A series of strikes would ensue and the country cannot afford that.

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

The PS have learned a lot from 2008.
Very little was restored to them.
A series of strikes would ensue and the country cannot afford that.

Good luck with that the general public have learned as well there is a lot of good will at the moment towards nurses but be warned the squeezed middle are already over taxed and those who are mobile will leave worsening the situation. Strike away see how far it gets you

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

The PS have learned a lot from 2008.
Very little was restored to them.
A series of strikes would ensue and the country cannot afford that.

purifol0

khalessi wrote: »

Where have PS looked for payrises?

Nurses went on strike in breach of the Pubsec pay deal last year, screwing over thousands of patients.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/nurses-announce-two-extra-strike-dates-to-five-already-planned-901822.html

Teachers had several strikes this year over pay

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0204/1112962-teachers/

Gardai threatened a full scale illegal strike in 2016, they received a 50 million euro extra pay for that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-overtime-at-celtic-tiger-level-over-cost-of-averting-strike-1.3310121?mode=amp

tayto lover

fliball123 wrote: »

Good luck with that the general public have learned as well there is a lot of good will at the moment towards nurses but be warned the squeezed middle are already over taxed and those who are mobile will leave worsening the situation. Strike away see how far it gets you

I agree that most of the PS are part of the squeezed middle.
They won’t take any more.
Striking has also got them plenty in the past and they know that.

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree that most of the PS are part of the squeezed middle.
They won’t take any more.
Striking has also got them plenty in the past and they know that.

See where it gets them when everyone is being taxed to pay to keep them at a level that is unsustainable not only do they want to keep what they have they want pay rises. It cant be done there will be an absolute sh1t storm is any government attempt to up income tax rates its already to much. So something going to have to give

tayto lover

fliball123 wrote: »

See where it gets them when everyone is being taxed to pay to keep them at a level that is unsustainable not only do they want to keep what they have they want pay rises. It cant be done there will be an absolute sh1t storm is any government attempt to up income tax rates its already to much. So something going to have to give

Let the games begin.

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

Let the games begin.

Its not exactly a game I take no bloody enjoyment in having these discussions I would much rather we didnt have covid , we didnt have a sh1tstorm coming down the line with unemployment along with the strong possibility of the greatest depression the world has seen. There is no chance public sector pay will be immune to this

jimmytwotimes 2013

purifol0 wrote: »

Teachers had several strikes this year over pay

1 day.

august12

fliball123 wrote: »

So you agree they dont cover the full cost thanks for clearing that up. Let them pay the full cost

Do all private sector workers cover the full cosy of their contributory pension, I don't so, but you don't hear me moaning about it, Some qualify for a full contributory pension on 10 years contributions, I am not entitled to a contributory pension, and my PS pension is not the gold plated one people make it out to be.

addaword

august12 wrote: »

Do all private sector workers cover the full cosy of their contributory pension,.

Most private sector workers cannot afford their own pensions, after they pay through their taxes for the government ones. And most private sector workers work in SMEs, not fancy multinationals like Google.

2ndcoming

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I pay far more than the cost of my own state pension each year. By that I mean in one year of work the state receives more in PRSI from me than the yearly pension pays out.

The contributory state pension at current rates pays out €12,900 a year. To pay more than that in PRSI (let's very conservatively say €13,200) you would be earning €330,000 a year. Roughly equal to 11 clerical officers with 6 years experience. Congrats to you, I guess.

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I get a contribution from my company of approx €200 per month. I put €1500 per month into my pension. I don't regard this as "tax". Why dont public sector workers get their unions to make it optional to take part in the defined benefit pension? Then of course the pension contribution would be optional.

Pretty pathetic on both you and your employers part given the above information. You could fill a gold plated pension of your very own in a fraction of the time those pesky public servants could on that salary.

[Deleted User]

fliball123 wrote: »

Good luck with that the general public have learned as well there is a lot of good will at the moment towards nurses but be warned the squeezed middle are already over taxed and those who are mobile will leave worsening the situation. Strike away see how far it gets you

Public support is overrated. ESB never had much support for any of their disputes but they had clout.

[Deleted User]

fliball123 wrote: »

Its not exactly a game I take no bloody enjoyment in having these discussions

Stop acting like what you say has any influence or importance. We are just a few people on a discussion forum. Nobody is listening.

addaword

Deleted User wrote: »

Stop acting like what you say has any influence or importance.

What the net taxpayer, those who fund the fund the government and the public sector say or think is important. The lives of many of the 2 million in the private sector has been decimated, yet the cossetted public sector expects a pay increase in these recessionary times when the country is borrowing 30 billion to keep the lights on?

Public servants always attack the messenger, be it the Indo, the Irish Times, The Sunday Times, Eddie Hobbs, Colm McCarthy, David McWilliams etc. Pay cuts are inevitable to help re-balance the country. In New Zealand some people paid by the public purse there have taken a 20% pay cut voluntarily.

purifol0

This entire thread and forum provides a fantastic insight for anyone reading back on it on the years to come.

Those that are already promoting lies about the previous recession are finding it harder to get away with as they once did, since the threads from ten years ago are still up.

Boards.ie and to alesser extent politics.ie is invaluable in that sense.

khalessi

purifol0 wrote: »

This entire thread and forum provides a fantastic insight for anyone reading back on it on the years to come.

Those that are already promoting lies about the previous recession are finding it harder to get away with as they once did, since the threads from ten years ago are still up.

Boards.ie and to alesser extent politics.ie is invaluable in that sense.

What lies are being promoted?

purifol0

khalessi wrote: »

What lies are being promoted?

That the public sector do not discriminate on age. That there were no public sector strikes. That was just the last 2 days and I rebutted them in my previous two posts.

coolshannagh28

addaword wrote: »

Most private sector workers cannot afford their own pensions, after they pay through their taxes for the government ones. And most private sector workers work in SMEs, not fancy multinationals like Google.

Don't forget the govt dipped their hands into private pensions when the going got tough .

HartsHat

addaword wrote: »

Most private sector workers cannot afford their own pensions, after they pay through their taxes for the government ones. And most private sector workers work in SMEs, not fancy multinationals like Google.

That's bad financial planning.

My public sector pension is no better than my private sector pension, because I was earning so much additional in private sector that I was able to put a good chunk away, tax free.

If you're not availing of such a government subsidy, that's on you.

Take some personal responsibility.

addaword

HartsHat wrote: »

That's bad financial planning.

My public sector pension is no better than my private sector pension, because I was earning so much additional in private sector that I was able to put a good chunk away, tax free.

If you're not availing of such a government subsidy, that's on you.

Take some personal responsibility.

According to the Irish Times, the value of an average Garda pension is 1.8 million. They only work 30 years to have that as a pension pt. The average private sector worker, be they self employed or paye, simply cannot afford to put that in to their pension and retire after 30 years work.

"Take some personal responsibility", says you, ffs.