Heart Rate Training - beginners guide

I've been reading the 80/20 book by Matt Fitzgerald and I'm interested in trying out some of his plans, no better time than now I thought with no races for a while. I probably already follow a 80/20 split in training but after reading the book I thought I'd try one of his plans just to keep myself occupied while I've nothing to really train for at the moment.
As mentioned I use the %HRR methods for calculating my zones. Fitzgerald uses %LT for his zones.
I'm trying to apply my zones to his zones but I'm getting confused. In his book there are only 5 zones but when I look online he now has 7 zones, an x zone between Zone 2/3 and a y zone between Zone 3/4. I don't see any mention of these x and y zones in the book.
I don't really want to start training by %LT as I like the %HRR method and I'm used to it.
Has anyone any thoughts on converting the Fitzgeralds zones into a more traditional way of calculating zones?

Murph_D wrote: »

Sounds OK so. I've always used the HRR method, just never associated it with Karvonen. I think I was mixing it up with the Maffetone method, which I'd glanced at recently. Happy to admit my error.

Yeah the MAF method is very hit and miss. Doesn't take into account a person's max HR or their resting Hr for that matter. Will work for some but not for everyone.

Murph_D wrote: »

I may have misrepresented the method - I was of the impression that it used an age-related formula to calculate an individual's max. I may have been wrong about that, in which case my criticisms are half-baked and best ignored.

Ah fair enough. I've used Karvonen for years and find it the best method for training by HR.

Sounds OK so. I've always used the HRR method, just never associated it with Karvonen. I think I was mixing it up with the Maffetone method, which I'd glanced at recently. Happy to admit my error.

Murph_D wrote: »

I may have misrepresented the method - I was of the impression that it used an age-related formula to calculate an individual's max. I may have been wrong about that, in which case my criticisms are half-baked and best ignored.

No, it's based on max and resting HR...Heart rate reserve and dividing up the number of usable beats you have rather than basing things on a max where different people may have hugely different resting rates...

FinnC wrote: »

I'm curious as to why you think the Karvonen formula is hit and miss?

I may have misrepresented the method - I was of the impression that it used an age-related formula to calculate an individual's max. I may have been wrong about that, in which case my criticisms are half-baked and best ignored.

Murph_D wrote: »

How are you calculating the max? The karvonen formula is very hit and miss.

I'm curious as to why you think the Karvonen formula is hit and miss?

partyguinness

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I do exactly the same as above. Always reminding myself to run tall and stay up on my feet. When I fatigue or get lazy I sink into my hips a bit and run flat footed. It's always the last thought in all of my sessions before the watch beeps for the next rep. Get up on my toes and run tall. I make a point of getting a high knee lift for the first few seconds and then settle.

I have a tonne of links to drills which I'll post when not on the phone. Can't post links with the mobile app for some reason. I don't do enough drills to be honest. I should make more time.

Up to 2016 I was very heavy and flat footed which was particularly noticible during my speedwork sessions on the track. In fact when I was passing out the slower groups one lady commented that she always knew it was me coming from behind a mile away with the heavy stomping. That was a little sobering- I think I heard the word 'elephant'.

So I bought spikes and started running on the ballls of my feet- was in agony after the first few sessions as my calves got used to it.

Now, I am constantly up on my toes and it is second nature. Lapping with little or no noise. Very very rarely toward the end of a hard long track session I might feel my heel on the track from tiredness but that immediately jolts me back into proper form. I have taken this into road running also. I have no injuries or niggles since I changed.

Maintaining the high knees is bloody hard and can't really do it but track running with spikes really improved my form.

partyguinness

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

I notice on my easy runs if the pace is slower than my normal pace I find that my stride is a few cm's shorter also. Cadence be on par but I'm adding extra strides. If it is 5 cm's a stride for 1m that is 1 extra stride in every 20. All adds up.

Also I find I need to get the control of the hr early if I don't it is hard to get it under control.

Yes I have experienced the same- cadence drops with slower pace which I guess is hardly suprisring as you reduce the turnover to keep HR in check.

I have a few particular routes that I stick to and on my 21km route which is hilly I have a 1.5mile flat loop at the beginning to allow HR to gradually build up- more like a warm up. Otherwise as you say HR just shoots up at the beginning if you are not careful.

SeeMoreBut

I notice on my easy runs if the pace is slower than my normal pace I find that my stride is a few cm's shorter also. Cadence be on par but I'm adding extra strides. If it is 5 cm's a stride for 1m that is 1 extra stride in every 20. All adds up.

Also I find I need to get the control of the hr early if I don't it is hard to get it under control.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I do exactly the same as above. Always reminding myself to run tall and stay up on my feet. When I fatigue or get lazy I sink into my hips a bit and run flat footed. It's always the last thought in all of my sessions before the watch beeps for the next rep. Get up on my toes and run tall. I make a point of getting a high knee lift for the first few seconds and then settle.

I have a tonne of links to drills which I'll post when not on the phone. Can't post links with the mobile app for some reason. I don't do enough drills to be honest. I should make more time.

Thanks both. Possibly a good idea for a new thread, although at the same time I’m sure good form equates to less effort and therefore lower HR at any pace.

Swashbuckler

I do exactly the same as above. Always reminding myself to run tall and stay up on my feet. When I fatigue or get lazy I sink into my hips a bit and run flat footed. It's always the last thought in all of my sessions before the watch beeps for the next rep. Get up on my toes and run tall. I make a point of getting a high knee lift for the first few seconds and then settle.

I have a tonne of links to drills which I'll post when not on the phone. Can't post links with the mobile app for some reason. I don't do enough drills to be honest. I should make more time.

skyblue46 wrote: »

165av/175max. I don't think it's fatigue. For example on one day my 130HR is 8:50 pace and it feels proper pedestrian, the next day a 130HR can have me running at 8:10. Logic dictates that if the HR is the same the effort is the same but I have to say I feel like I'm working more.

Interesting. I had a mare of a run the day before the TT. Ran 9miles feeling utterly drained. Hills were mountains. The wind was a gale. But the heart rate and pace were fine. There are so many other variables. For me it was a clue that something else was a factor. Pollen.

I also know that cooler temp in morning usually means lower hr. The "easy" long run during the day yesterday resulted in garmin dropping my VO2 by a point!

Murph_D wrote: »

How do you focus on form exactly? Something I’d like to pay more attention to. Sometime try to be more aware of posture, arms, tilt, etc. but it’s very hit and miss (in terms of remembering to think of it at all).

Any particular drills/thoughts you use to help focus?

It's something I took from swimming funnily enough. I learned to swim age 30-31. First 1500m was 29mins. Within 2 years I was holding that pace for a 3800m IM swim. Also the 1500m down to 22mins and did a 2hrs50 marathon swim (10k). Now if I could only progress as much running!

I swam thousands of lengths of a pool but almost always had 1 point of technique/form to concentrate on. Aware of the body and what it is doing stroke after stroke.

Ok to running. Lately I've been reminding myself to run taller. Imagine you straighten up to have a photo taken. You instantly engage your core and square your shoulders. I sit at a desk all day for work so my core (source of power) is weak and my shoulder tend to hunch forward. This is exacerbated when I'm running tired. By thinking "run taller" I consciously lengthen my spine, engage my core, squeeze my shoulder blades closer together. The outcome of this is my elbows feel lower and dont cross as much. The sideways motion sinks my hips and I quit engaging my glutes.

When the glutes and core are engaged, running feels easy. It's just not easy to do!

Sorry long answer to a simple question.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Are you carrying fatigue across the easy days? Your TT was some speed. What was your avg/max% hr for it?

165av/175max. I don't think it's fatigue. For example on one day my 130HR is 8:50 pace and it feels proper pedestrian, the next day a 130HR can have me running at 8:10. Logic dictates that if the HR is the same the effort is the same but I have to say I feel like I'm working more.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Thanks M. Yes I get your point about differing paces at similar HR. My 'issue' recently is feeling that I am working harder on the faster days even if the HR indicates I'm not. That would be at a HR less than 75% of max HR...

Are you carrying fatigue across the easy days? Your TT was some speed. What was your avg/max% hr for it?

ED E wrote: »

Did you change your clothing to account for the weather recently?

If I wore anything less I'd be arrested :pac:

ED E

skyblue46 wrote: »

Thanks M. Yes I get your point about differing paces at similar HR. My 'issue' recently is feeling that I am working harder on the faster days even if the HR indicates I'm not. That would be at a HR less than 75% of max HR...

Did you change your clothing to account for the weather recently?

shotgunmcos wrote: »

For years I used heart rate for bike and running and adjusted zones for reducing max and seasonal changes (peak season max could be higher than winter training max). I have had my max hr tested with a VO2 test in a lab too.

Zones 1-5 can be subjective depending on the book you read, coach etc.

A penny dropped just recently to use %hrmax as my zone guide. It suddenly made things easier.

Z1 <=70%
Z2 70-75%

Now I have 2 guiding principles for easy runs.
1. Most easy miles <75%, <70% the day after a workout or if feeling tired
2. 80% is easy cap and only for hills on easy runs.

That's it. The pace is whatever it is. Some days 7:30-8mins, other days 8:30-9:15

It's the only field I have on the watch for all easy runs. I've found it has simplified 70% of all my mileage and I'm starting to really tune into how running feels. Even better, once I know I'm running easy and am not concerned with pace, I tend to focus on form. It's been an awakening.

Thanks M. Yes I get your point about differing paces at similar HR. My 'issue' recently is feeling that I am working harder on the faster days even if the HR indicates I'm not. That would be at a HR less than 75% of max HR...

How do you focus on form exactly? Something I’d like to pay more attention to. Sometime try to be more aware of posture, arms, tilt, etc. but it’s very hit and miss (in terms of remembering to think of it at all).

Any particular drills/thoughts you use to help focus?

For years I used heart rate for bike and running and adjusted zones for reducing max and seasonal changes (peak season max could be higher than winter training max). I have had my max hr tested with a VO2 test in a lab too.

Zones 1-5 can be subjective depending on the book you read, coach etc.

A penny dropped just recently to use %hrmax as my zone guide. It suddenly made things easier.

Z1 <=70%
Z2 70-75%

Now I have 2 guiding principles for easy runs.
1. Most easy miles <75%, <70% the day after a workout or if feeling tired
2. 80% is easy cap and only for hills on easy runs.

That's it. The pace is whatever it is. Some days 7:30-8mins, other days 8:30-9:15

It's the only field I have on the watch for all easy runs. I've found it has simplified 70% of all my mileage and I'm starting to really tune into how running feels. Even better, once I know I'm running easy and am not concerned with pace, I tend to focus on form. It's been an awakening.

Why do you feel the pace needs to increase? Could be right, but at the same time you seem to be getting results, based on recent TT times anyway.

Having said that, I can't do the faster end of easy (according to calculators like McMillan or JD) within zone 2 either, but I'm not sure that's a problem. What IS a problem is that rules of thumb like max-30 beats (as a MP indicator) tells me that my M goals are unrealistic!

Murph_D wrote: »

How are you calculating the max? The karvonen formula is very hit and miss.

It's just the max I have ever achieved according to the watch. To be honest I think my easy paces needed to be increased the past while and now it seems quite a jump to get to the paces I 'should' be running.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ah right...I'm having the opposite problem. I'm also using the Karvonen Method and have recently found my easy runs aren't getting out of Zone 1. Zone 2 feels like a steady run...

How are you calculating the max? The karvonen formula is very hit and miss.

partyguinness

My max HR has been calculated at 169 at a VO2 test but you do tend to pussy out and not push it so in reality it is somewhere in the early 170s. I have heard other runners say the same.

Resting HR is generally low 40s and I have even seen 35bpm.

Casey78 wrote: »

Using the Karvonen Method formula,MAX HR is 200 which I have tested multiple times,resting is about 60. So Zone 2 is 144-158.

Ah right...I'm having the opposite problem. I'm also using the Karvonen Method and have recently found my easy runs aren't getting out of Zone 1. Zone 2 feels like a steady run...

Casey78

skyblue46 wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what your HR zones are and what you're basing them on?

Using the Karvonen Method formula,MAX HR is 200 which I have tested multiple times,resting is about 60. So Zone 2 is 144-158.