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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

You are probably on about 1000 a week so, before tax and pension contribution. That is close to the public service average of 50,000 per year, so would be about right. Most people in the private sector are or were not on that, even before covid-19. Most people do not work in google. Most people do not even work in multinationals. Even in those, there are people with a degree and 9 years experience on less than you, but without the security and defined benefit pension. You are probably better off than 9 out of 10 people currently.

You might want to read up on how averages, medians and means work. It would be a big help to you when you're working with numbers like this.

Funny how quick you were to fire off examples of high earners in the public sector but when anyone mentions the same in the private sector, you find excuses to pooh pooh it.

[Deleted User]

salonfire wrote: »

And likewise the public sector only look at the salaries when the private sector is flying, hence the scramble of benchmarking on the 00s.

Once the private sector takes a nose-dive - twice now in 11 years - the response of the public sector is to look the other way.

They daren't breathe the word bench-mark in recent years

so, if we accept there is an element of truth in each argument, what do we take from it?

private salaries will be more vulnerable to quick rises and falls than public salaries, right?

pay agreements in the public service run as cooling mechanisms in good times (pay still not restored since FEMPI, a decade on) and serve as a base level of protection to the workers in bad times (now, for instance).

none of this is news.

so..... what's the point of the thread?

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

You are probably on about 1000 a week so, before tax and pension contribution. That is close to the public service average of 50,000 per year, so would be about right. Most people in the private sector are or were not on that, even before covid-19. Most people do not work in google. Most people do not even work in multinationals. Even in those, there are people with a degree and 9 years experience on less than you, but without the security and defined benefit pension. You are probably better off than 9 out of 10 people currently.

From an I.T. perspective, anyone nine years with a multinational and not on 50k+ a year excluding bonuses etc is either crap at their job or can't be arsed to progress and are happy enough to just get the standard pay rise every year in both cases.

pillphil

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My employer does not allow it. But it's not a problem if a solution like Citrix is used.

You shouldn't have the ability to install anything at all on a work laptop.

The organisation's fault, for not having proper policies in place, or not implementing those policies.

I mean, that was my point. They shouldn't be using their own equipment for this.

For point 1, I can think of some potential issues even with Citrix, but granted they are convoluted and unlikely.

Point 2, there's plenty of reasons to need to be able to install programs on a work computer, i mean even on my department computer I can install things. It's a requirement of the job.

[Deleted User]

MarkR wrote: »

All this "us vs them" stuff is polarizing.

Its not really us v them. It's a few bitter private sector people with chips on their shoulders attacking the public sector.

addaword

salonfire wrote: »

Why don't you leave immediately and join the private sector where you'll be paid at least double. With your experience in the public sector, I doubt you'll even have to do an interview. They'll want you straight in the door.

Lol. I am surprised he was not head hunted already. A person of his calibre is clearly being wasted.

ninebeanrows

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

[Deleted User]

pillphil wrote: »

Point 2, there's plenty of reasons to need to be able to install programs on a work computer, i mean even on my department computer I can install things. It's a requirement of the job.

Very few organisations will give staff members rights to install software on machines connected to the corporate network. No-one can stand over the integrity of the network if every user can install whatever the hell they like.

Where developers need to be installing tools regularly, they should have a dev machine which is off the main network.

pillphil

I mean, i agree, but even a compromised dev network is an issue.

Chaos Black

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

A bit of sun, few pints and a windup post in the evening. Cracker of a day!

Blondini

MarkR wrote: »

All this "us vs them" stuff is polarizing.

True, and it's not only a secret society of freemasons that get to join the public service.
Its right here ===> Publicjobs.ie

Bizarre really.

Dr. Bre

Is public v private sector an Irish thing? Or does it go on in other countries?

Fann Linn

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

If I wanted that I would've stayed in the private sector.

kingstevii

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

Why not 30%?

addaword

kingstevii wrote: »

Why not 30%?

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector. They deserve it, look how talented and hard working they are. If there was a 30% cut you may start to see people leave the public sector for the private sector. Doubtful, considering sick days, pension etc are greater in the public service, but you could start to see it happen. I did not advocate a 20% pay drop across the board, but listening to an economist on the radio recently I think that was the argument, given the country is borrowing so much now and we cannot afford high ps wages.

A 20% cut would still leave our president with over 200, 000 per year, plenty considering he has done so little all year.

[Deleted User]

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

Troll alert.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector. They deserve it, look how talented and hard working they are. If there was a 30% cut you may start to see people leave the public sector for the private sector. Doubtful, considering sick days, pension etc are greater in the public service, but you could start to see it happen. I did not advocate a 20% pay drop across the board, but listening to an economist on the radio recently I think that was the argument, given the country is borrowing so much now and we cannot afford high ps wages.

A 20% cut would still leave our president with over 200, 000 per year, plenty considering he has done so little all year.

youve been asked oh about a dozen times to provide a response acknowledging the problems with this simplistic article you're so fond of.

probably in your job you were let off with just ignoring complexities, that would be an issue if you had made the public service exams

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Troll alert.

if you think that's the first troll in this thread id say someone needs to aveaword tbh

[Deleted User]

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Is public v private sector an Irish thing? Or does it go on in other countries?

U.K. and U.S. are the only other two that I am aware of.

Didn't see it in France or Germany when I was there.

gmisk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Increments are a different method of payment. The top of the scale is the value a experienced person should get paid for the role. You could reach the top of the scale in 7 years. You may then get paid at that level for the next 33 years until you retire if you dont get a promotion. And most people do not get a promotion.
Increments are not some generous hand out. You have to work a number of years to reach that level. I simply wouldn't be in this job if the bottom of the scale was deemed the actual wage for the job.

most people do not get a promotion? What are you basing that on? I would think a lot of people who knuckle down get promotions.
For context I started as a CO I am now an AP

gmisk

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

A 20% cut with immediate effect is needed and would be a great sacrifice for our nation

If our public servants think so greatly of our nation succeeding and getting through this crisis they will surely allow this

Where do you work? Would you be happy to take that cut?

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector. They deserve it, look how talented and hard working they are. If there was a 30% cut you may start to see people leave the public sector for the private sector. Doubtful, considering sick days, pension etc are greater in the public service, but you could start to see it happen. I did not advocate a 20% pay drop across the board, but listening to an economist on the radio recently I think that was the argument, given the country is borrowing so much now and we cannot afford high ps wages.

A 20% cut would still leave our president with over 200, 000 per year, plenty considering he has done so little all year.

The PS pay premium that used to exist has declined.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

"Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1. "

I will highlight those result, for clarity:

In 2018, depending which statistical technique is used, PS earned from -3.4% below to 6.8% above the private sector.

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Another finding:

"Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4."

To summarise:

Low-paid PS at the 10th percentile earn 12.7% more than the private sector.

At the 90th percentile, the PS earn -17.3% below the private sector.

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector.

I suggest always looking at primary data:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

See table 1, take 2019 Q3 data:

PS = 973 pw
Private sector = 709 pw

Now, of course the PS average is higher.

For some of the reasons, see here:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/summarystatistics/

62% of PS have a degree, vs 39% of private sector
PS has way more workers in professional occupations
and so on.......

So the higher average earnings is explained.

runawaybishop

addaword wrote: »

Well, the national papers reported last year that average public sector pay was 50, 320, and average private sector pay was 37,291. A 20% cut in p.s. pay would leave it at just over €40,000. Cleary a small premium is needed in the public sector. They deserve it, look how talented and hard working they are. If there was a 30% cut you may start to see people leave the public sector for the private sector. Doubtful, considering sick days, pension etc are greater in the public service, but you could start to see it happen. I did not advocate a 20% pay drop across the board, but listening to an economist on the radio recently I think that was the argument, given the country is borrowing so much now and we cannot afford high ps wages.

A 20% cut would still leave our president with over 200, 000 per year, plenty considering he has done so little all year.

The public sector do not have 0 hour contracts, minimum wage or a huge amount of part time workers. That's why they average higher, not because they are overpaid, because the private sector, in many areas, underpays.

Fyi, in some some areas like IT and senior management it is very very difficult to recruit staff due to the relatively low wages. An example, in my dept junior Devs start as EO at 28k. Grads in the private sector get 32-35k. Junior dev contractors that we have to buy in are charged at 6/7 hundred a day.

Finally, if you paid every TD nothing you wouldn't even make a dent on what we have spent on PUP.

addaword

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Is public v private sector an Irish thing? Or does it go on in other countries?

DubInMeath wrote: »

U.K. and U.S. are the only other two that I am aware of.

Didn't see it in France or Germany when I was there.

The ECB commissioned a report titled “The Public Sector Pay Gap in a selection of EU countries”, dated Dec 2011, Working Paper Series 1406, by Giordano et al. They found that in PIIGS countries, where the Troika had been very busy, typically Public Sector employees enjoyed a pay premium of approx 30%, after adjustment for the agreed variables eg education, where in contrast in Germany and France, average Public Sector pay was actually less than average Private Sector pay!

This is why you didn't see it in France or Germany when you there, Dublinmeath!

The report was in Dec 2011. Do not forget the public sector pay increases scheduled under the terms of the National Wage Agreement, ‘Towards 2016’, due in 2009 were not paid. Furthermore, public sector pay was effectively cut in 2009 via the introduction of the public service pension levy, a pension-related deduction. There was a further formal cut in public sector pay on a tiered basis in 2010, as part of the 2010 Budget.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The ECB commissioned a report titled “The Public Sector Pay Gap in a selection of EU countries”, dated Dec 2011, Working Paper Series 1406, by Giordano et al. They found that in PIIGS countries, where the Troika had been very busy, typically Public Sector employees enjoyed a pay premium of approx 30%, after adjustment for the agreed variables eg education, where in contrast in Germany and France, average Public Sector pay was actually less than average Private Sector pay!

This is why you didn't see it in France or Germany when you there, Dublinmeath!

The report was in Dec 2011. Do not forget the public sector pay increases scheduled under the terms of the National Wage Agreement, ‘Towards 2016’, due in 2009 were not paid. Furthermore, public sector pay was effectively cut in 2009 via the introduction of the public service pension levy, a pension-related deduction. There was a further formal cut in public sector pay on a tiered basis in 2010, as part of the 2010 Budget.

Why are you going back 10 years. You have been provided up to date data.

Ever hear of when the facts change i change my mind? Its like slow learners class in here.

yenom

salonfire wrote: »

Why don't you leave immediately and join the private sector where you'll be paid at least double. With your experience in the public sector, I doubt you'll even have to do an interview. They'll want you straight in the door.

Don't worry about your old spot, plenty more in the Competition Panel eager take your place.

No way. I only have 31 more years until I get the Golden pension.

addaword

yenom wrote: »

No way. I only have 31 more years until I get the Golden pension.

Enjoy your youth. You joined the wrong part of the public service, gardai get it after 30 years work.

Great piece in the Irish examiner yesterday, looking at the situation of 1.2 million people in the private sector who lost their jobs, had large pay reductions or are on some form of state support, versus the 330,000 people in the public sector, some of whom looking for pay increases.
And the new 30 billion hole in the state finances.
It calls for fairness.

august12

gmisk wrote: »

most people do not get a promotion? What are you basing that on? I would think a lot of people who knuckle down get promotions.
For context I started as a CO I am now an AP

It depends on whick part of Public Service one is in, Civil Service seems to have way more opportunities for promotion, I would agree with the other person's comment here, a lot of people do not get promoted and get a modest pension on retirement.
The civil service appears to have a very strong union representation, how it managed to promote a certain grade across the board is beyond me, went very much under the radar and was never extended to the wider public sector,