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If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bilbot79

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

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[Deleted User]

Has anyone worked out how much an office with say 100/200 people, now nearly all working at home are saving in electricity costs alone, let alone incidental costs such as tea, coffee, milk the person washing the cups and keeping the kitchen tidy and clean or the costs of cleaners.

JimmyVik

Deleted User wrote: »

30 people in my office, the EU HQ of a large MNC. Looking at getting back in late August and overwhelming majority want to return according to a poll last week. Contrast with the much larger Canary Wharf office, where only a small minority want to return. Public transport is probably a big factor....c. 2/3 of Dublin office cycles, scooters (is that a verb now?) or walks to work

Expecting 25% in on any particular day to start with. When those that can’t return in the first wave, or don’t want to, are taken into account, there will probably be a 50:50 split team arrangement. In for a week, out for a week.

And, personally, I cannot want to get back to my big standing desk, multiple screens, bright office, and loads of storage space. Compared with my cramped, corner of the living room, WFH arrangement

Ours sent a poll out today.
I answered "yes, i want to go back to the office", even though i dont want to. Probably most did. If you were in my place you would know why

But sure it wont make a difference. No matter what people polled, they would just make us go back the first day possible anyway.

KyussB

snoopboggybog wrote: »

...
If a company wants you to install software and VPN on your own personal laptop then it is a crap company and the people working in IT should be fired or the people in charge don't want to spend money on IT. No company should be doing this or expect you to install software on a personal laptop to monitor you. I would leave a company if they asked me to do this or demand a laptop from them.
...

That is exactly what is being talked about, that is exactly what companies are doing...

You seem to just not read what is posted - how many times does it have to be repeated to you, that companies are pushing to have spyware installed on peoples computers - and THAT is the issue.

You don't even contest this either - you just say what amounts to "well don't work for them, then..." - which is a fairly trite answer which misses the point entirely, as the risk is this type of intrusion becoming increasing regular.

Furthermore, any company with full monitoring over a work laptop - able to install/run whatever they like, remotely - can trivially scan your home network in exactly the way I described - a simple remote shell into an employees laptop is all the access that's needed to do it.

For a bunch of network admins, you have a piss poor understanding of how to secure a network. You have no concept of how to protect a home network from an employer, if you think running employer spyware on a home network is secure.

[Deleted User]

JimmyVik wrote: »

Ours sent a poll out today.
I answered "yes, i want to go back to the office", even though i dont want to. Probably most did. If you were in my place you would know why
But sure it wont make a difference. No matter what people polled, they would just make us go back the first day possible anyway.

What company would do this? Obviously I am spoiled, having worked for sophisticated MNCs most of my career. I had no idea until this thread that there were companies out there that would treat their office employees like this. Can you not just say no, if you feel that they are not protecting your health and safety. They cant fire you.....theyd be in all sorts of trouble. And they cant possibly have all staff in anyway, unless they already had 2m distancing between desks?

KyussB

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Again calling you out with more utter drivel. If you actually work in IT the company is fecked. Nearly all decent company has proxies setup which monitors internet history, blocks malicious websites amongst many other things.

I've worked in quite a few IT companies and every single one of them has this.

I repeat it would be a very shady company if they have the VPN setup in a way to be scanning devices and open ports on your home network.

You swear this working from home is a new thing.

Again, in a reply to a post where I ask the other poster if they've even read what they're replying to - you demonstrate you haven't read what you're replying to...

It says right there in what you quoted:
I'm taking issue with corporate spyware being mandatorily installed on employee's devices - not with VPN connections or cloud-hosted OS's

Never said 'open ports' either - read what you're replying to instead of talking nonsense...

You'd swear that some low level network admins feel like their territory is being encroached on here or something, the way they're completely blind to what they're replying to...

KyussB

Interested Observer wrote: »

Yeah good question, what will I do. What will I do if they decide to fire me, or if they tell me I'll be making the coffee from now on or I'm being transferred to our new office in Bangladesh? I don't know what I'd do, because none of those things are going to happen, and the overwhelming likelihood is I'll never have to find out. Like a lot of people, whenever it's safe I'll go back to working in an office, my employment status won't change, nobody will be putting 'spyware' (seems to be what you call things like Citrix) on my personal devices, I'll continue to be a regular permanent employee. If anything different happens I'll let you know.

Going back to working in an office would be the wise thing in this case, in my view. It's a lot more secure than a permanent WFH situation, which puts people at risk of being pushed into a contractor role instead.

I said several times I wasn't talking about Citrix...

markpb

My office is re-opening in a few weeks but no-one will be forced to go in and the numbers allowed to go in will be limited. They're talking about going from 80-90 people down to 10-12 and, even then, there will be a max of 1-2 people per team. The main problem at the minute is trying to sort out bathrooms, the kitchen, etc. I can see traffic lights and a queue outside the bathroom yet

It's likely to remain that way for the rest of the year.

Of the people who have asked to go back, generally they're living alone and cracking up or there are several people all WFH in the same house which makes it hard to find space, quiet for calls and a decent internet connection for multiple video calls at the same time. Others just want to go work at a decent sized desk with multiple monitors and a proper keyboard and mouse instead of a laptop popped on the kitchen table.

mayo londoner

Augeo wrote: »

Aren't they aware of the easing of restrictions documents?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/dd26a8-easing-the-covid-19-restrictions-on-10-august/#work

"Remote working continues for all workers or businesses that can do so"

Anyone working from home since March can clearly "do so", in cases like that there should be no return to the office according to gov.ie ...........

Construction company, I'm afraid they don't work that way. They were hellbent on a no WFH policy before COVID, not much has changed. Much more productive from home too without being subjected to all the ****e in the background noise. Our office has never closed, has always been 4 or 5 people in it during this time for some unknown reason, Managing Director refused to close it fully.

TheIrishGrover

KyussB wrote: »

..... like, remotely - can trivially scan your home network in exactly the way I described - a simple remote shell into an employees laptop is all the access that's needed to do it.....

Which would be illegal. Now if you are fearful of a company acting illegally then that is a whole other conversation which would ALSO apply if you were using their hardware remotely.

KyussB

Right so now we finally have posters who were talking shite by claiming this is not possible, shifting the goalposts to "well surely companies wouldn't do that, that's illegal!".

We've already had several examples given by other posters in the thread, of people being routinely fired for illegally accessing stuff - so that argument doesn't hold.

People on their home networks also don't have a corporate IT team monitoring the network for intrusions (and those few individualy smart enough to do so, will have their network segregated so the work devices don't have acces to the home devices - something the average employee will not know how to do).

a_squirrelman

Some paranoid head on this KyussB. I don't think the MNC I work for gives a damn about what I'm doing on my home network.

I've been working from home two days per week for years now and going forward I wouldn't mind working from home for good after corona.

I use my personal laptop for any dodgy movie downloading but the work one is still used for almost everything else, because it's on and I couldn't be bothered logging in to the personal one half the time.

snoopboggybog

KyussB wrote: »

Right so now we finally have posters who were talking shite by claiming this is not possible, shifting the goalposts to "well surely companies wouldn't do that, that's illegal!".

We've already had several examples given by other posters in the thread, of people being routinely fired for illegally accessing stuff - so that argument doesn't hold.

People on their home networks also don't have a corporate IT team monitoring the network for intrusions (and those few individualy smart enough to do so, will have their network segregated so the work devices don't have acces to the home devices - something the average employee will not know how to do).

From someone who doesn't understand how IT works? Quote the post. If your accessing dodgy stuff on a work laptop you deserve to be fired.

Your knowledge of networking is actually laughable at this point and how companies operate is actually laughable.

Have you ever worked in a MNC? My guess is you have an interest in IT but unemployed.

KyussB

You guys are supposedly a bunch of network admins, who think it's 'secure' for an employer to have e.g. remote shell access into an employees device and thus have all they need to scan through and access the home network.

It's very strange - I can only think of a handful of cases for why people who claim to be knowledgeable on the subject, would defend something so obviously wrong and insecure:
1: They don't actually understand network security well enough to consider that the employee's network needs defending from their employers.

2: There is some kind of territorial pissing contest going on, where they feel their area of expertise has been encroached on - so when they finally realize employee's networks need defending from their employers, they can't back down because they've made it a stupid pissing contest.

3: They are genuinely gullible enough to believe that someone would never illegaly access a network - even though the entire point of their job is to secure against this illegal possibilty (except with corporate networks rather than home networks).

4: For some reason, they want to defend the ability for corporations to snoop on their employee's networks.

Blanco100

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0527/1142847-lower-wages-no-promotions-working-from-home/

Interesting read. Hoping the working from home bubble doesnt burst, its been fantastic not having to commute.

Mrs OBumble

snoopboggybog wrote: »

@MrsBumble - You keep talking about GDPR and other stuff and you have no clue about it. You seem to be looking for every reason for people not to work from home. Is it because you like bossing people around in the office or something. I really had to laugh at having camera's spying on people in the office ffs. Most be a terrible company to work in.

Sorry now but I absolutely hate people talking absolute rubbish and think their knowlegedble in an area when they don't have any clue whatsoever.

Thanks for the laugh.

I've been vague, because I'm not going to give out details about the actual companies that I've been doing work for, or even the industries they're in.

I can assure you that they're not crap to work for, they just work in a field where there's lots of conflict with customers and related parties. So (just like CCTV in pubs) technological monitoring ends up being part of supporting the employees, as well as meeting regulatory requirements.

In the last 3 months, against my better judgement, I've installed VPN software on personal computers (my own included) because in mid-March the supply chain dried up: our usual vendors couldn't get us laptops fast enough. Thankfully we've now got hold of enough laptops to roll this back, But it took a while.

I now work from home 4 days a week, on average. For me it's fine. But I'm not taking sensitive customer calls or doing staff performance reviews in front of my partner, kids or housemates. I know that some of our people are, and are finding it difficult. Similarly, my work is not regulated (my manager is not not going to face an audit asking how he knows that FDA or whatever standards were maintained). And I know that there are far broader issues involved.

This article presents a good look at the history and challenges of remote working. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/can-remote-work-be-fixed

But even it ignores the issue of promotions and career development. Working remotely is fine if you're experienced and know what you're doing. But how do you get a job you're not experienced in? How do you learn to do something new? How do recent graduates even begin to get career jobs - no one's going to hire them to work remotely, and many won't have gafs which are adequate for home-working, either.

It also ignores non-performing or badly-behaved employees: when I worked for an organisation with 1200 staff nationwide, the HR people knew they would have about 12-14 major investigations each year, and that about half of them would end up with firing someone - because not every professional adult behaves the right way all the time.

snoopboggybog

KyussB wrote: »

You guys are supposedly a bunch of network admins, who think it's 'secure' for an employer to have e.g. remote shell access into an employees device and thus have all they need to scan through and access the home network.

It's very strange - I can only think of a handful of cases for why people who claim to be knowledgeable on the subject, would defend something so obviously wrong and insecure:
1: They don't actually understand network security well enough to consider that the employee's network needs defending from their employers.

2: There is some kind of territorial pissing contest going on, where they feel their area of expertise has been encroached on - so when they finally realize employee's networks need defending from their employers, they can't back down because they've made it a stupid pissing contest.

3: They are genuinely gullible enough to believe that someone would never illegaly access a network - even though the entire point of their job is to secure against this illegal possibilty (except with corporate networks rather than home networks).

4: For some reason, they want to defend the ability for corporations to snoop on their employee's networks.

So your against ****e companies with bad IT staff or no IT budget who setup remote access the wrong really?

Is that it? The way you are wording it is like its every single company.

And for point four they are not trying to snoop on your home network for the very last time.
Anyone with any common sense would use a different device for work. If a company asked me to use a personal laptop i would say no, why not set me up with a virtual desktop or supply me with a work laptop.
If a company won't setup a virtual desktop for you through Azure, AWS, Citrix etc. then the company you are working for has a ****e infrastructure and if the company doesn't even give you a laptop then the company's IT setup is just ****e.

The_Honeybadger

30 people in my office, public sector and deemed essential service. Most people have been WFH all throughout with a skeleton staff rotating in to the office to answer phones and open the post etc. We are being gradually brought back in over the next few weeks with limited numbers at any one time, divided in to teams. Workload has increased dramatically as we are a unit with a supporting role in the Covid19 crisis.

IT department did a good job getting everyone set up with a laptop and Citrix very quickly. WFH is going to be a thing for the foreseeable future according to senior management and may actually become the norm. We were at bursting point in the office before Covid19 and it would solve an issue for the organisation if people could WFH and use hot desks when they are in. Access to printers / scanners is an issue, we are a quite paper heavy organisation, mainly because some of the managers are old school and have been completely resistant to change but this may be the push needed to go paperless and move everything to the cloud. Bring it on from my POV

KyussB

snoopboggybog wrote: »

So your against ****e companies with bad IT staff or no IT budget who setup remote access the wrong really?

Is that it? The way you are wording it is like its every single company.

And for point four they are not trying to snoop on your home network for the very last time.
Anyone with any common sense would use a different device for work. If a company asked me to use a personal laptop i would say no, why not set me up with a virtual desktop or supply me with a work laptop.
If a company won't setup a virtual desktop for you through Azure, AWS, Citrix etc. then the company you are working for has a ****e infrastructure and if the company doesn't even give you a laptop then the company's IT setup is just ****e.

If that's what you view me as being against then why the fuck are you even arguing with me?

Your argument boils down to simply trusting corporations with access that allows snooping on your home network, simply because "shure they wouldn't be interested in doing that anyway..." - at the same time that managers in corporations are pushing for an unprecedented scale of monitoring of employees...

You want to provide all managers in charge of an employee, with the level of access needed to spy on their entire home network? Fuck that... (loads of people have experience of shit managers out there, who they know would abuse that power, knowing full well employee's don't have the technical knowledge to detect them or stop them).

Yea ignore all the people once again, telling you that they are using home devices for work...and ignore every single contractor out there...

Ignore again that this is not talking about cloud hosted OS setups, as if you haven't been told 4/5 times already...

Ignore again that a work laptop with full control from an employer allowing installations of arbitrary programs or shell access, allows all the abuses I talk of...

Ignore again the reality that there are plenty of companies not operating in the ideal way you say they should...

Strumms

Yep, you want me working from my own home and I’m that flexible to being agreeable to the point of facilitating a company with a workspace in ‘my’ home you supply the equipment that enables me to be doing the job for you, at home...laptop, and work mobile... whatever else too.

I’m flexible enough to provide the company with a workplace, they should be flexible enough to supply whatever equipment I’ll need to work for them from home.

Remember it’s the company’s laptop, company’s mobile so they get retuned when I return to the office post covid.

Most medium sized companies with say 70 employees, 30 use and need a laptop for work and connectivity , that could be an outlay of 12-16 grand to supply home workers with everything they require but such are the times we are living in.

[Deleted User]

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

......

I've been vague, because I'm not going to give out details ........

I now work from home 4 days a week, on average. For me it's fine. But I'm not taking sensitive customer calls or doing staff performance reviews in front of my partner, kids or housemates...........? How do recent graduates even begin to get career jobs - no one's going to hire them to work remotely, and many won't have gafs which are adequate for home-working, either.

.......

You've kids, a partner & housemates..... Most graduates won't be in any less suitable home environment surely?
You manage away 4 days a week.

snoopboggybog

KyussB wrote: »

If that's what you view me as being against then why the fuck are you even arguing with me?

Your argument boils down to simply trusting corporations with access that allows snooping on your home network, simply because "shure they wouldn't be interested in doing that anyway..." - at the same time that managers in corporations are pushing for an unprecedented scale of monitoring of employees...

You want to provide all managers in charge of an employee, with the level of access needed to spy on their entire home network? Fuck that... (loads of people have experience of shit managers out there, who they know would abuse that power, knowing full well employee's don't have the technical knowledge to detect them or stop them).

Yea ignore all the people once again, telling you that they are using home devices for work...and ignore every single contractor out there...

Ignore again that this is not talking about cloud hosted OS setups, as if you haven't been told 4/5 times already...

Ignore again that a work laptop with full control from an employer allowing installations of arbitrary programs or shell access, allows all the abuses I talk of...

Ignore again the reality that there are plenty of companies not operating in the ideal way you say they should...

Well if you don't like it then, go unemployed or use a dongle and separate computer or secure your home network. The way your talking is like every company is doing it and working from home should be banned and you are scare mongering. If your that insecure then I can't imagine what you are like in real life.

Probably the type of person who wouldn't use hotel wifi. Working from home isn't a new thing you know.

Are you Chuck McGill in Better call Saul? It sounds like you want working from home banned or something.

As for putting everyone as contractors, not going to happen. What could happen is the company will weigh up the cost of having people on site or outsourcing their whole infrastructure to another company and work out the benefits and cost savings.

Not disagreeing on this.

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jimmycrackcorm

KyussB wrote: »

You've had several posters here say straight out that employers/managers are looking at putting spyware on employees home devices, that they have direct experience of this...

I don't think for a second that actually happens. It would be a wide-open invitation to a privacy lawsuit, because guess what, companies can't go and pay on on you in your home, whether its your laptop, your personal phone (vs work phone) or insisting you install CCTV in your living room to watch you work.

I think posters suggesting that are mixing up spyware with actual remote desktop or VPN solutions that are needed to access remote working.

KyussB

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Well if you don't like it then, go unemployed or use a dongle and separate computer or secure your home network. The way your talking is like every company is doing it and working from home should be banned and you are scare mongering. If your that insecure then I can't imagine what you are like in real life.

Probably the type of person who wouldn't use hotel wifi. Working from home isn't a new thing you know.

Are you Chuck McGill in Better call Saul? It sounds like you want working from home banned or something.

As for putting everyone as contractors, not going to happen. What could happen is the company will weigh up the cost of having people on site or outsourcing their whole infrastructure to another company and work out the benefits and cost savings.

Not disagreeing on this.

You're unable to make an argument without embellishing your post with statements I never made - and which you know I never made - I'll repeat again:
The issue is with companies wanting mandatory installation of employee tracking spyware on devices - including home devices - which is a real thing, stated by posters asked by work to look into that, in this thread.

Just so we're very clear on that - as you are constantly trying to pretend it is something else that issue is being taken with.

What I have argued is very simple: There must be zero corporate spyware on an employee's home network. That is insecure for an employee's home network, and trivially allows e.g. an overintrusive manager (or disgruntled network admin - which there seems to be a few here...) to snoop around on a persons home network and accessible devices (including the endless amount of entirely unsecured IoT devices people will have).

The average employee can not be expected to secure their home network. The employer must stay out of ability to access of a persons home network in the first place, including having enough remote control of a device on that network, that would allow gaining access (and all of the alternatives of cloud-hosted OS setups have already been discussed and settled as not being the focus of the issue here, before there's another attempt to feint back to that...).

KyussB

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think for a second that actually happens. It would be a wide-open invitation to a privacy lawsuit, because guess what, companies can't go and pay on on you in your home, whether its your laptop, your personal phone (vs work phone) or insisting you install CCTV in your living room to watch you work.

I think posters suggesting that are mixing up spyware with actual remote desktop or VPN solutions that are needed to access remote working.

Remote desktop and VPN has already been covered and settled many times in the thread, as not being the issue.

You've had a poster in the thread directly say they were asked at work to look at employee tracking software...you've had the posters arguing against me, admit that many workplaces have full remote control of work laptops on home networks etc. (which is all the access needed to allow all the abuses I discussed - with the average employee having no knowledge of how to detect or block such abuses).

So forget VPN and cloud, they are not the focus of this. This is a verified real thing that companies are pushing for - and at an access level that many already have at a technical level, on work provided equipment.

JimmyVik

a_squirrelman wrote: »

I don't think the MNC I work for gives a damn about what I'm doing on my home network.

I worked for a MNC years ago. I used to go out with the person who was tasked with this in HR, so found out first hand what happened.

When they needed 50 redundancies HR were told to go the head of IT with 100 names and get them to "dig out offensive jokes or any other mails or websites that these people sent or visited over the last few years". The head of IT got his man on it and came up with the goods.

Everyone has a joke or an email that they sent on that at least someone in the world might find offensive.

50 were called into HR a few weeks later and given the choice, resign or be fired. The company did not have to pay out any redundancies at all.

Another event was , a person in legal, no less, who was being bullied was sending emails to their personal email account detailing the bullying events as they happened.
They were brought in and told they had violated company policy, shown a lot of emails including the ones they sent to themselves and given the choice too. They left quietly.

Companies are always storing up information that can be used when suited.

[Deleted User]

JimmyVik wrote: »

....... resign or be fired. ...................
They were brought in and told they had violated company policy, shown a lot of emails including the ones they sent to themselves and given the choice too. They left quietly.

........

They should have forced the companies hand really and went for the firing option, I reckon it'd disappear fairly quickly. IMO of course.

Also, iirc, if you resign you don't get social welfare? Can't see too many going for it tbh.

Snow Garden

JimmyVik wrote: »

I worked for a MNC years ago. I used to go out with the person who was tasked with this in HR, so found out first hand what happened.

When they needed 50 redundancies HR were told to go the head of IT with 100 names and get them to "dig out offensive jokes or any other mails or websites that these people sent or visited over the last few years". The head of IT got his man on it and came up with the goods.

Everyone has a joke or an email that they sent on that at least someone in the world might find offensive.

50 were called into HR a few weeks later and given the choice, resign or be fired. The company did not have to pay out any redundancies at all.

Another event was , a person in legal, no less, who was being bullied was sending emails to their personal email account detailing the bullying events as they happened.
They were brought in and told they had violated company policy, shown a lot of emails including the ones they sent to themselves and given the choice too. They left quietly.

Companies are always storing up information that can be used when suited.

Sounds like a great movie. Can you name the MNC?

ELM327

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh.

I've been vague, because I'm not going to give out details about the actual companies that I've been doing work for, or even the industries they're in.

I can assure you that they're not crap to work for, they just work in a field where there's lots of conflict with customers and related parties. So (just like CCTV in pubs) technological monitoring ends up being part of supporting the employees, as well as meeting regulatory requirements.

In the last 3 months, against my better judgement, I've installed VPN software on personal computers (my own included) because in mid-March the supply chain dried up: our usual vendors couldn't get us laptops fast enough. Thankfully we've now got hold of enough laptops to roll this back, But it took a while.

I now work from home 4 days a week, on average. For me it's fine. But I'm not taking sensitive customer calls or doing staff performance reviews in front of my partner, kids or housemates. I know that some of our people are, and are finding it difficult. Similarly, my work is not regulated (my manager is not not going to face an audit asking how he knows that FDA or whatever standards were maintained). And I know that there are far broader issues involved.

This article presents a good look at the history and challenges of remote working. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/can-remote-work-be-fixed

But even it ignores the issue of promotions and career development. Working remotely is fine if you're experienced and know what you're doing. But how do you get a job you're not experienced in? How do you learn to do something new? How do recent graduates even begin to get career jobs - no one's going to hire them to work remotely, and many won't have gafs which are adequate for home-working, either.

It also ignores non-performing or badly-behaved employees: when I worked for an organisation with 1200 staff nationwide, the HR people knew they would have about 12-14 major investigations each year, and that about half of them would end up with firing someone - because not every professional adult behaves the right way all the time.

We're hiring people now to start working and they are beginning remotely.
Other companies already were hiring for WFH roles (ebay, shopify to name but two) before covid.

ELM327

Snow Garden wrote: »

Sounds like a great movie. Can you name the MNC?

Initech?

hots

ELM327 wrote: »

We're hiring people now to start working and they are beginning remotely.
Other companies already were hiring for WFH roles (ebay, shopify to name but two) before covid.

Same, we've hired and onboarded people during this already. And we've done performance reviews, promotions and performance monitoring from home. If you don't go in with the mindset of "it's impossible" a lot is achievable.