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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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[Deleted User]

"we should be more like the economy of NI"

read it all now folks

addaword

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"we should be more like the economy of NI"

read it all now folks

You miss the point. David McWilliams made the point that one reason houses and farms and taxes were less in the north was because spending on welfare and individual public sector salaries was less there. Here spending by the government is high, so taxes are high.

Poor_old_gill

Pascal & his team of accountants are failing this basic economics theory exam.

The concept of investment & returns seems to have been something that they couldn’t get their head around.

The lack of understanding of something as basic as the Keynesian multiplier in the department of finance & the central bank is genuinely very, very worrying.

[Deleted User]

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Sure, but no private sector worker has a contract saying they will get the state pension.

No public sector worker has a contract saying they will get the State pension. You're trying to create a division where none exists.

addaword wrote: »

Do pay attention.

You really are clutching at straws here. One comment from one parent is 'evidence' for you. Have the parents notified their school of the correct email address? Have they bothered to contact the school to see what's happening?

Where's all the details of 'all the people we all know sitting at home getting paid for doing nothing'? Was that just a bad dream you had one night?

addaword wrote: »

Do you think Special Needs Assistants, all 16,000 of them in the country, are working from home all day every day?

Why the rhetorical questions? If you have something to say about SNA's, then say it - and give details of your source of information. it would make a change from spreading fear, doubt and unsubstantiated rumours.

addaword wrote: »

Taxes are too high, everything from income tax, vat, excise duties, vrt and so on. What does the government do with all those taxes, what do they spend them on, do you think?

Ooh generally they spend it things like public services - health, education, infrastructure, procurement of goods and services from the private sector.

addaword wrote: »

David McWilliam made the point that taxes on house building and cars and income tax and vat etc can be and are all less in the north, as are public sector salaries and social welfare benefits there. Here our taxes are high to help pay for public expenditure.

You seem to have forgotten all about private sector salaries, and how they impact the goods and services that we all pay for. Would you like to build those into your calculations.

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Pascal & his team of accountants are failing this basic economics theory exam.

The concept of investment & returns seems to have been something that they couldn’t get their head around.

The lack of understanding of something as basic as the Keynesian multiplier in the department of finance & the central bank is genuinely very, very worrying.

Pascal and his team of economists would leave you on the baby step when it comes to economic theory. Don't assume that they don't know what they're talking about just because you don't like their decisions.

addaword wrote: »

Do pay attention.

Do you think Special Needs Assistants, all 16,000 of them in the country, are working from home all day every day?

Taxes are too high, everything from income tax, vat, excise duties, vrt and so on. What does the government do with all those taxes, what do they spend them on, do you think?

Poor_old_gill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No public sector worker has a contract saying they will get the State pension. You're trying to create a division where none exists.

You really are clutching at straws here. One comment from one parent is 'evidence' for you. Have the parents notified their school of the correct email address? Have they bothered to contact the school to see what's happening?

Where's all the details of 'all the people we all know sitting at home getting paid for doing nothing'? Was that just a bad dream you had one night?

Why the rhetorical questions? If you have something to say about SNA's, then say it - and give details of your source of information. it would make a change from spreading fear, doubt and unsubstantiated rumours.

Ooh generally they spend it things like public services - health, education, infrastructure, procurement of goods and services from the private sector.

You seem to have forgotten all about private sector salaries, and how they impact the goods and services that we all pay for. Would you like to build those into your calculations.

Pascal and his team of economists would leave you on the baby step when it comes to economic theory. Don't assume that they don't know what they're talking about just because you don't like their decisions.

I very much doubt it - you know little of my qualifications or ability.
Department of Finance is run by short term accountants, hence the inability to understand the current issue.

smelly sock

Chiparus wrote: »

Why are new houses €150 K in Northern Ireland?

Because Irish builders, tradesmen and developers are gougers.

smelly sock

addaword wrote: »

One good reason, as David McWilliams said, is because taxes are much less in Northern Ireland because they pay their public servants and welfare much less.

HaHa. If McWilliams said that then I'd lean toward the opposite.

Taxes are one thing. But developers make huge profits here. It's called greed. At 150k for a new build I doubt to many Irish developers / builders are looking to break into the market up there.

[Deleted User]

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I very much doubt it - you know little of my qualifications or ability.
Department of Finance is run by short term accountants, hence the inability to understand the current issue.

The PhD economist that I spoke to from DoF last year might disagree with you.

Tell me more about these 'accountants'?
https://www.thejournal.ie/chief-economist-finance-1165583-Nov2013/
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/aee64a-k/

[Deleted User]

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I very much doubt it - you know little of my qualifications or ability.
Department of Finance is run by short term accountants, hence the inability to understand the current issue.

gwan I'll bite

what are your economic qualifications and give us a brief precis of what you feel would demonstrate your ability

not that i necessarily think DFin is run by geniuses, but dropping a ref to keynesianism without any context or further detail as to what the problem you see is or what solutions suggest themselves is a bit too much of a tease imo

Onesea

nigeldaniel wrote: »

Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

Are you not the very expense they want to cut down on?

[Deleted User]

HerrKuehn wrote: »

It is much more likely that the state pension will be means tested and this will only affect private sector workers.

like, you are or are not aware that this is totally incorrect?

factually incorrect, like

i know that we all like our opinions but jesus lads its just page after page of two or three people shamelessly making up things and never acknowledging when they are corrected

embarrassing tbh but i spose ppl have time on their hands

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

You miss the point. David McWilliams made the point that one reason houses and farms and taxes were less in the north was because spending on welfare and individual public sector salaries was less there. Here spending by the government is high, so taxes are high.

Taxes are not high in Ireland.

They are middling.

Hotblack Desiato

solidasarock wrote: »

1. Hey. Remote working from top to bottom works. They should keep it around.

It works in a "keep the lights on" kind of way, but between this crisis and having a caretaker government, a lot of things that would normally be getting done are being long fingered.

2. If remote working is the new norm then why the F does every government department need a office for 500 people each in D1 and D2? Get some departments out of there. I am sure PLENTY of current staff would be more then willing to kiss Dublin good bye.

You do remember the €1Bn decentralisation debacle, don't you?
Very few volunteered to move job out of Dublin and most of those who did were already living well outside the city anyway.
A lot of people already working outside Dublin applied for posts nearer to where they were living.
But those who were already established in the cities (not just Dublin), a partner with a career who couldn't/didn't want to move, mortgage, kids in school, elderly parents to care for, etc. etc. had no interest in moving whatsoever - and why on earth would they?

Ultimately we spent a billion euro to line FF landowners' and developers' pockets, promote people who weren't good enough to be promoted in Dublin but were willing to move to get a promotion, and make public services less efficient.

Hotblack Desiato

Geuze wrote: »

All PS hired since April 1995 pay full-rate PRSI and should receive the State Pension.

They do, but it's integrated with the occupational pension so there is no monetary benefit from it.
They do gain from the non-cash benefits associated with it, which pre-95 public servants don't get. Also optical and dental benefit which, again, pre-95 don't get.

addaword wrote: »

You miss the point. David McWilliams made the point that one reason houses and farms and taxes were less in the north was because spending on welfare and individual public sector salaries was less there. Here spending by the government is high, so taxes are high.

Are you taking the absolute piss, or what?

Public sector spending in NI is a massive chunk of their economy, far more than here or in Britain, as is the proportion of employees in the public sector, and the proportion of the population on welfare

So much so, that NI needs a £10billion subsidy from Westminster each year. Hardly any sort of economic success story.

Also, income tax in the UK as a whole is higher than here for low paid workers, it's only for high paid workers that it's less.

HerrKuehn

Deleted User wrote: »

like, you are or are not aware that this is totally incorrect?

factually incorrect, like

i know that we all like our opinions but jesus lads its just page after page of two or three people shamelessly making up things and never acknowledging when they are corrected

embarrassing tbh but i spose ppl have time on their hands

Well I would be glad to be wrong about that. I was thinking it would be possible to keep public sector pensions the same while means testing the contributory state pension. I would like to find out more about that. Needless to say I don't trust the government to stick to the rules given they dipped into my pension fund during the last crisis to fund the lower vat rate for restaurants.

I am not trying to sow division, I would prefer if there was a way where we could avoid the austerity measures we had the last time i.e. no cuts and no tax increases. Maybe this will be possible, who knows.

We really have only 3 options:
1) Borrow the deficit (we are limited in this respect given how much debt we ran up the last time)
2) Cut spending (salaries, services, welfare)
3) Increase taxes.

One thing that has become clear during the pandemic is that for many jobs, it really doesn't matter where we are located. For me, I find I can work even better remotely than I can in the office. I am sure that many others are finding the same thing. Companies are also noticing this, some have told staff to work remotely indefinitely. I think the world has utterly changed because of this, in a really interesting way. I can work wherever I like, it is something I have thought about before but it has really brought it into focus.
This new reality obviously limits #3 above long term. Countries will have to make the tax system attractive because the skilled staff we are trying to attract are very mobile.

Given that tax is already very high for higher earners, especially since the last crisis and particularly given the levels of service provided here, it doesnt make Ireland a very attractive option.

So, if the solution is to increase taxes on higher earners, we will surely see people move. My team is considering moving to another European location if this happens.

addaword

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Public sector spending in NI is a massive chunk of their economy, far more than here or in Britain, as is the proportion of employees in the public sector, and the proportion of the population on welfare

So much so, that NI needs a £10billion subsidy from Westminster each year. Hardly any sort of economic success story.

.

Not the point. The point David McWilliams made was that taxes here are higher than the uk ( eg vat, excise duty, vrt on vehicles, income tax) and it has to be, to help pay for public sector pay and pensions and welfare which are higher here than in the uk. Of course the north is a basket case, but their tax rates and welfare etc are the same as the rest of the uk.

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

Taxes are not high in Ireland.

They are middling.

Why are some people paid so much so? Lidl is not expensive, a house down the country is not expensive.

Chiparus

smelly sock wrote: »

Because Irish builders, tradesmen and developers are gougers.

Private sector gougers.

combat14

addaword wrote: »

Taxes are too high, everything from income tax, vat, excise duties, vrt and so on. What does the government do with all those taxes, what do they spend them on, do you think?

Bailing out the banks, bailing out the private sector during the covid lockdown, interest payments on the 205-230+ billion national debt, social welfare and pension payments, providing hospitals, schools, colleges, universities, police and national defence forces, roads public services, etc.

I'm sure it's a long list that requires more detailed analysis and as per the private sector there are bound to be some inefficiencies in there

the taxes are complete killer at this stage absolutely no incentive to work extra hours at the moment when most of it is going back to the tax man these days

addaword

combat14 wrote: »

Bailing out the banks, bailing out the private sector during the covid lockdown,

The banks have been public sector for a long time, or as good as public sector, and it was the regulator and central bank not doing their job properly which ended up in the banks being bailed out.
As regards bailing out during the covid lockdown, the private sector workers told they cannot work by the government only got 350 per week. The public sector workers told they cannot work by the government ( like the 16000 Special Needs Assistants, some Bord Failte stc) got and get their normal salary and pensions. That point was made in a debate on the radio many times.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

The banks have been public sector for a long time, or as good as public sector, and it was the regulator and central bank not doing their job properly which ended up in the banks being bailed out.

The Regulator and Central Bank did the job set out in the deliberate 'light touch regulation' environment set out by Charlie McCreevy. You seem to be confused between political policy and operations.

I've no idea what you mean by banks been public sector. They're not. Some remain in partial ownership of the Government, to avoid them collapsing, but that share is reducing over time.

addaword wrote: »

As regards bailing out during the covid lockdown, the private sector workers told they cannot work by the government only got 350 per week. The public sector workers told they cannot work by the government ( like the 16000 Special Needs Assistants, some Bord Failte stc) got and get their normal salary and pensions. That point was made in a debate on the radio many times.

When exactly were SNA told they cannot work? I must have missed that communication. Bord Failte hasn't existed for a decade or two, so again you seem to be a bit confused there.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Regulator and Central Bank did the job set out in the deliberate 'light touch regulation' environment set out by Charlie McCreevy.

A central bank was supposed to be an independent national authority that conducted monetary policy, regulated banks, and provided financial services including economic research. Charlie McCreevy was paid by the government / taxpayer as well as the Central bank was. The Central bank did not do its job properly in the tiger years.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've no idea what you mean by banks been public sector.

I said the banks are as good as public sector. The state's shares in the banks can only be sold following an order from the finance minister. The Banks are guaranteed by the government. The other poster suggested they are typical of the private sector. They are not.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

When exactly were SNA told they cannot work?

The point is they are not working. Neither are some teachers, going by the large numbers of parents whose pupils have not heard from their school in 5 or 6 weeks.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Bord Failte hasn't existed for a decade or two, so again you seem to be a bit confused there.

Call them failteireland , whatever you want. I suppose you think all of their many employees are busy working from home advising tourists where to go for the weekend, or are they on €350 per week?

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Not the point. The point David McWilliams made was that taxes here are higher than the uk ( eg vat, excise duty, vrt on vehicles, income tax) and it has to be, to help pay for public sector pay and pensions and welfare which are higher here than in the uk. Of course the north is a basket case, but their tax rates and welfare etc are the same as the rest of the uk.

I'd have to check whether overall taxes are higher here or UK.

Yes, we have VRT, they don't.

UK has high council taxes, our LPT is way lower.

Comparing tax to GDP, we are way lower, but of course GDP is distorted:

Total_tax_revenue_by_Member_States_and_EFTA_countries%2C_2017_and_2018%2C_%25_of_GDP.png

Total_tax_revenue_by_Member_States_and_EFTA_countries%2C_2017_and_2018%2C_%25_of_GDP.png

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Not the point. The point David McWilliams made was that taxes here are higher than the uk

I had a look for Irish tax to GNI* data, vs UK tax to GDP.

Our GG Rev to GNI* ratio is very close to UK GG Rev to GDP ratio.

https://twitter.com/seamuscoffey/status/1156511805415596033

EAy_wC0X4AEvVHj?format=png&name=900x900

2ndcoming

addaword wrote: »

The banks have been public sector for a long time, or as good as public sector, and it was the regulator and central bank not doing their job properly which ended up in the banks being bailed out.
As regards bailing out during the covid lockdown, the private sector workers told they cannot work by the government only got 350 per week. The public sector workers told they cannot work by the government ( like the 16000 Special Needs Assistants, some Bord Failte stc) got and get their normal salary and pensions. That point was made in a debate on the radio many times.

That line is a favourite of the worst in society.

"I mean, we were doing tons of highly immoral but somehow barely legal sh1t, and making unheard of amounts of cash doing it. It's all the regulators fault though because they didn't catch us!"

Fúck right off.

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

I'd have to check whether overall taxes are higher here or UK.

Yes, we have VRT, they don't.

Our vat rate is higher, about a seventh higher. Our income tax rates kick in quicker. Excise duties. Usc. Cgt. They paid 28 to 28%, our rates are 33% to 40%, Because of the large number of multinationals here our GDP rates are skewed. I think David McWiĺiams was right.

addaword

It was the bank who were doing tons of highly immoral but somehow barely legal sh1t,

It was not us doing barely legal **** snig making unheard amount of cash dong it?, that was the banks fault. They are f right offf?, as you say.

blanch152

addaword wrote: »

Our vat rate is higher, about a seventh higher. Our income tax rates kick in quicker. Excise duties. Usc. Cgt. They paid 28 to 28%, our rates are 33% to 40%, Because of the large number of multinationals here our GDP rates are skewed. I think David McWiĺiams was right.

There are a small number of areas where tax in Ireland is lower than in European areas. They include:

(1) Social Insurance Contributions from lower earners
(2) Income tax from lower earners
(3) Taxation of the family home
(4) Water charges and other local and utility charges

Those are all politically difficult, but they are where we are low-tax.

addaword

blanch152 wrote: »

There are a small number of areas where tax in Ireland is lower than in European areas. They include:

(1) Social Insurance Contributions from lower earners
(2) Income tax from lower earners
(3) Taxation of the family home
(4) Water charges and other local and utility charges

Those are all politically difficult, but they are where we are low-tax.

I agree with you there. On point 3 though, taxation of the family home, I agree with you the annual charge is not high, but in some other countries you get refuse charges for example included in that. And the government has found way to tax the family home through other ways. During the Celtic tiger era the government made billions from stamp duty, which on private houses was up to a whopping 9%. On secondhand houses.

addaword

2ndcoming wrote: »

That line is a favourite of the worst in society.

Fúck right off.

Your language says more about you than about me, and brings the tone of the boards debate down.