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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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ELM327

Unless you have a Tesla (or are prepared to pay 80c per kWh for Ionity) the "fast" network here is indeed pretty crap.
This thread could be from 2014 with the lack of progress.

There's been more progress from Ionity, Tesla and easygo than esb since then.

ELM327

digiman wrote: »

It’s great and all to get a 50kW charger in Cavan and Kells but you have a significant detour and don’t have the petrol station facilities while waiting on the car to charge up. They really need to be aiming so much higher than this. Should be 150kW chargers in Cavan and Donegal/Letterkenny to make a route to the NW easier for EV drivers.

It's across from a supervalu in Kells , pretty local to me, I assume theres a coffee machine , refreshments etc there. Can't speak for the cavan one.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

The specs can say what they like, it's irrelevant if theres a local power limit

The question is why the AC can't draw 22 kW if the DC is not being used. That's the point. The supply or power limit is not the problem in this scenario as all 50 kW is available, right.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

The question is why the AC can't draw 22 kW if the DC is not being used. That's the point. The supply or power limit is not the problem in this scenario as all 50 kW is available, right.

It's set up as single phase is my guess.
Due to the power limit.

I hope to test it out with my 11kw 3 phase model S later.

McGiver

zg3409 wrote: »

Esb app says 50kW DC 6kW AC

I saw a comment on Facebook saying they are limited to 44kW DC and 6kW AC and that the 6kW AC might reduce the 44kW down to 38kW Max if AC connector in use. I think the 6kW limit on AC is to give priority to DC, I know if I was on DC and someone rocked up and started taking 22kW on AC away from my DC I would not be happy.

The charger should be "smart" and reroute power to the DC in that scenario. That's what I would expect...

If they hard limit the AC to 6 kW that may mean that the charger is not "smart".

McGiver

ELM327 wrote: »

It's set up as single phase is my guess.
Due to the power limit.

I hope to test it out with my 11kw 3 phase model S later.

Oh right, didn't occur to me, but I'd expect 3-phase for 50 kW device.
That could explain it, yes. But then it should be 7.4 kW exactly not 6 kW :P
Let us know once you test it.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

The charger should be "smart" and reroute power to the DC in that scenario. That's what I would expect...

If they hard limit the AC to 6 kW that may mean that the charger is not "smart".

This is what I suspect.
I hope to get there late this evening (after 6pm) on route to shopping. I hope the AC and DC are both available so I will test both and report.
I will preheat the car so I can get max DC, and report that, as well as AC when DC not in use.

I'm expecting 40kW on the DC (limited to ~110a by the charger) and 7.4kW on the AC (hard limited to 32a single phase)

unkel

zg3409 wrote: »

I saw a comment on Facebook saying they are limited to 44kW DC and 6kW AC and that the 6kW AC might reduce the 44kW down to 38kW

It's getting better every day. 38kW "fast charging" on brand new fast charger installs paid for with a budget of millions of tax payers money

Only in Ireland :rolleyes:

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

This is what I suspect.
I hope to get there late this evening (after 6pm) on route to shopping. I hope the AC and DC are both available so I will test both and report.
I will preheat the car so I can get max DC, and report that, as well as AC when DC not in use.

I'm expecting 40kW on the DC (limited to ~110a by the charger) and 7.4kW on the AC (hard limited to 32a single phase)

Any reason you're expecting 110A instead of 125A, eCars are listing it as 50kW, the charger spec sheet says 125A and one guy of facebook claims 44kW. There's a few people their who claim that our eFacec units are also only 44kW whereas really it's just their car.

unkel

His Tesla should do >100kW on CCS so I guess any speed he reports will be the charger limit and not the car.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

His Tesla should do >100kW on CCS so I guess any speed he reports will be the charger limit and not the car.

I agree that Elm know's what he's talking about, the question is more towards why does he expect 110A instead of 125A? I won't be surprised if it does only supply 110A, but then I'd also be complaining to eCars that listing it as 50kW is incorrect.

ELM327

I expect 44kW as this is a) what is listed on the ecars announcements and b) makes sense as 44kW is 2*22kW matching the existing supply.

I can charge at up to 100kW on CCS, so the charger will be the limiter and I'll see later what we get. I will be preheating for 1 hour before going to ensure max speed.

(also, 110a/44kW matches the older DBT units that were chademo only)

liamog wrote: »

Any reason you're expecting 110A instead of 125A, eCars are listing it as 50kW, the charger spec sheet says 125A and one guy of facebook claims 44kW. There's a few people their who claim that our eFacec units are also only 44kW whereas really it's just their car.

The chargers we have at ecars are 50kW capable. To get 50kW gross (before losses) you need a bms and battery capable of accepting 125a and a battery at 400v. Very few meet this condition, so in practice, there are losses and slightly lower voltage, leading to a net rate of 42-45kW. The Ioniq28 was capable of 52kW gross/49kW net, and the Ipace is too, but very few other EVs will get 50kW (or even close) into the car.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I expect 44kW as this is a) what is listed on the ecars announcements and b) makes sense as 44kW is 2*22kW matching the existing supply.

I can charge at up to 100kW on CCS, so the charger will be the limiter and I'll see later what we get. I will be preheating for 1 hour before going to ensure max speed.

(also, 110a/44kW matches the older DBT units that were chademo only)

That makes sense, so really eCars should not be advertising this as a 50kW charger on the charging map, which is my point all along. They seem to be a bit haphazard with advertised charging speeds.

ELM327 wrote: »

The chargers we have at ecars are 50kW capable. To get 50kW gross (before losses) you need a bms and battery capable of accepting 125a and a battery at 400v. Very few meet this condition, so in practice, there are losses and slightly lower voltage, leading to a net rate of 42-45kW. The Ioniq28 was capable of 52kW gross/49kW net, and the Ipace is too, but very few other EVs will get 50kW (or even close) into the car.

I'm well aware of how the charging process works. I believe the 94Ah I3 is also capable of pulling 125A upto around 80% and also peaks at just under 50kW. I've updated a few of the chargers on goingelectric.de (source data for abetterrouteplanner) as someone listed the Irish ones as 110A 44kW.

ELM327

For those not on FB, I tested it today

AC. Free to use. Labelled as 22kW on the unit however.Limited to 6kW. But it’s 6kW three phase. (8amp three phase) single phase cars will only get 2.2kW. See photos.

Dc labelled as 50kW/125a on the unit, however it is limited to approximately 110a-115a (44kW, 40kW to the car net). Again, see photos.
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liamog

Thanks for doing the experiment. The three phase 8A is probably the strangest configuration I've ever seen. I wonder if a single phase car plugged in would it get 24A.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

AC. Free to use. Labelled as 22kW on the unit however.Limited to 6kW. But it’s 6kW three phase. (8amp three phase) single phase cars will only get 2.2kW

The charging speeds go down and the salaries go up. Well done, ESB! Great to see the tax that we all pay is used well.

2.2kW slow charging is beyond pathetic in 2020 for a public charge point. Almost as pathetic as 44kW fast charging

:rolleyes:

slave1

2.2 lol, 3 pin plug speed, just lol

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

2.2 lol, 3 pin plug speed, just lol

If only it was funny. Millions of our tax money is wasted on this. Well obviously not on charging infrastructure. But it is good to see that the ESB has their priorities right. First priority: pay your employees way over the odds. Second priority: give your employees cosy civil servant type 20th century silk, champagne and caviar pensions. Third priority. Make sure both above are well and truly in place. Fourth priority. Forgot, what do we do again? Doesn't matter as long as we get our cosy perks.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

The charging speeds go down and the salaries go up. Well done, ESB! Great to see the tax that we all pay is used well.

2.2kW slow charging is beyond pathetic in 2020 for a public charge point. Almost as pathetic as 44kW fast charging

:rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned they'ved just delivered a 666% improvment in charging speed for my Ioniq when in Cavan/Kells. All without requiring planning permission or electricity network upgrades. It's gone from a black spot to a place with a rapid charger.

unkel

I like your positive attitude liamog. And I'm glad it will help you on your journey on that route. Fact remains the public charging network in Ireland is a joke despite the millions of tax payers money we are throwing at it. At least all of the private operators are putting in a decent effort. At little or no cost to the tax payer. Like Ionity, Tesla supercharger network and some smaller players. We really should stop all of our tax payers money going to the ESB. Is nobody or no agency at all in this country looking into how tax money is spent? Ireland is even more of an outlier than former corrupt eastern european countries. A completely and utterly corrupt politician (officially named so by a tribunal) still being voted top of the poll every year for instance. Only in Ireland (and other banana republics in far warmer places)

Sorry for ranty post, but this stuff has to be said, or nothing changes.

Round Cable

unkel wrote: »

Fact remains the public charging network in Ireland is a joke despite the millions of tax payers money we are throwing at it. At least all of the private operators are putting in a decent effort. At little or no cost to the tax payer.

Their efforts are not so great either Unkel, Ionity has slowed down, while being no use to non-CCS drivers. Tesla seemed to have abandoned new superchargers in Ireland, Enfield was supposed to come online 2 years ago, again no use to non-Tesla drivers. And how many rapid chargers have EasyGo installed in the last year? Very few.

While I agree that ESB haven't been overly impressive in the roll out of fast charge points, and they have got their hands on plenty of government and EU money, is there a need to complain at every opportunity, even when there's a little bit of good news?

liamog

To put the government investment in perspective, eCars was granted €10,000,000 to invest in the network.
The Irish Greyhound board was given €16,000,000 (to do greyhound stuff?)

unkel

There is feck all good news from the ESB. Although there should be, given we all have to pay big bucks for it even when we don't want to and we all know it's not efficient and not effective. That's the worst part.

It would be much better if the ESB stopped all their involvement in the Irish EV charging network.

zg3409

New 43kW DC charger on Bolton square Drogheda town in place of old 22kW unit. Active on esb app now. I updated plugshare app with same info. 6kW AC it says.

unkel

Another non-upgrade :rolleyes: In fact for some groups like Zoe and older Tesla owners this is a downgrade.

Will you get the bloody finger out ESB and either do a proper upgrade of these old chargers or, preferably, leave them alone and instead spend our tax money on installing some 150kW (or more) multi bay charger that this country really needs.

Black_Knight

Well the more they upgrade, the more billable charge points they add, and the less free ones that are available.

Pleasing Tesla S drivers is a bit niche in Ireland. I feel for the Zoe drivers though, that is their ace in the hole here. If it means eliminating CCS black spots I'm all for it. Not sure this latest one does though.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

Another non-upgrade :rolleyes: In fact for some groups like Zoe and older Tesla owners this is a downgrade.

You don't have to make this comment for every one of the planned dual AC to DC upgrades, we get it, you don't find this part of the programme useful.

unkel

I have to keep making this comment, hopefully at some point someone with sense in the ESB will read it and recognise they are wasting the tax payers money we give them and that they should handle with care and give us value for money

I am passionate about this. Maybe more of us should be. And there is nothing in it for me. My car won't be able to charge at any of those multibay 150kW fast chargers, yet it is the only way we should invest any public money in chargers. Or perhaps we should not be investing any public money at all if we can't do it right.

liamog

From the Oireachtas in the first post, there were 50 planned 2x22AC to DC upgrades, I think they've delivered 4 so far. Are we going to get 46 more complaint posts as replies?

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

From the Oireachtas in the first post, there were 50 planned 2x22AC to DC upgrades, I think they've delivered 4 so far. Are we going to get 46 more complaint posts as replies?

I'd be happy with that. Would mean ESB actually deliver 46 more DC chargers. Unlikely though