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Is farming actually profitable?

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Little background.. moved home from abroad a few years back, teaching close enough to home. Have planning permission on home farm and father is coming close to retirement. Have signed up to do Green Cert. Farm about 60 acres and only sheep on it.

Anyways, been thinking about getting into the "family business". I'd have grown up doing jobs and know a bit about sheep. However, I havent a notion about the finances or running a farm. Its not something I'd do for the love of it or to break even.

I know its a "how long is a piece of string?" question, but could a farm that size be profitable?? All I ever hear is how theres no money in farming.

Thanks for reading and any feedback welcome.

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endainoz

Water John wrote: »

At the moment I would be slow to lock up land into anything long term like trees. The signs are the EU will have a major shift on land/farming policy in 2022. This will be very focused on the environment.
There is an article in the IFJ 15/02/20 about Ryhs Edwards a Welsh farmer addressing the National Sheep Association NI He had calculated that he was sequestering four times more CO2 than he was emitting.
This will become a major income stream IWT.

That's very interesting, we have been waiting for this environmental shift in CAP for a few years now. Would be nice to be able to calculate carbon sequesteration in ones own farm. Like if you have areas of hedging or woodland, or bogland. I don't have a link to the article, does the farmer go into any detail about how it was calculated?

Kevhog1988

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No not a Meath man just a realistic Kerryman in exile

if mayo are the god bless us county i dont know what us lads in kildare are

Water John

I think it's, Mayo God help us.
The Welsh farmer used Farm Carbon Toolkit. I know there is a project in Scotland that measures something similar, it may be bioactivity, will search my paper clippings.

josephsoap

Dickie10 wrote: »

yea i often see lietrim farmers taking land up around me here, i often thaought it was mad.like its 2 hours away

Dickie10 wrote: »

south Meath

Wow, really this is unbelievable - farmers that would rent land 2\3 hours drive away from where there live - surly this would result in bankruptcy if suckler/beef farming ??

Bass Reeves

josephsoap wrote: »

Wow, really this is unbelievable - farmers that would rent land 2\3 hours drive away from where there live - surly this would result in bankruptcy if suckler/beef farming ??

Seldom lads take land 3 hours away. Usually it 1-2 hours and usually around the hour mark. Most lads that do are taking a place 40-50 acres+. Usually it lads from poorer farming area's and this type of land allows them to finish stock. As well often the owner will keep an eye or herd stick. Tenant may only visit place 1-2 times a week and this is often in passing to do other business. As well they do not use the land cruiser to drive to suck a place but the Berlingo van

Dickie10

you would want a fair love of farming or be seriously determined to make a go of it to be at that.

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Seldom lads take land 3 hours away. Usually it 1-2 hours and usually around the hour mark. Most lads that do are taking a place 40-50 acres+. Usually it lads from poorer farming area's and this type of land allows them to finish stock. As well often the owner will keep an eye or herd stick. Tenant may only visit place 1-2 times a week and this is often in passing to do other business. As well they do not use the land cruiser to drive to suck a place but the Berlingo van

Heaps of land round Mullingar leased to lads from up Manorhamilton direction. Like base says all renting decent sized blocks of land, throw the owner a few quid to throw an eye on the stock, keeps him busy as well. Spin down early Sunday morning for a look round and back in time for mass.

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Seldom lads take land 3 hours away. Usually it 1-2 hours and usually around the hour mark. Most lads that do are taking a place 40-50 acres+. Usually it lads from poorer farming area's and this type of land allows them to finish stock. As well often the owner will keep an eye or herd stick. Tenant may only visit place 1-2 times a week and this is often in passing to do other business. As well they do not use the land cruiser to drive to suck a place but the Berlingo van

Hard Knocks

tractorporn wrote: »

Heaps of land round Mullingar leased to lads from up Manorhamilton direction. Like base says all renting decent sized blocks of land, throw the owner a few quid to throw an eye on the stock, keeps him busy as well. Spin down early Sunday morning for a look round and back in time for mass.

Another way of looking at it
These guys can’t afford to buy at current prices and there is a massive push to plant land in Leitrim

josephsoap

josephsoap wrote: »

Wow, really this is unbelievable - farmers that would rent land 2\3 hours drive away from where there live - surly this would result in bankruptcy if suckler/beef farming ??

Ha, funnily enough in the Farmers journal this week, a farmer from Manorhamilton/Leitrim is interviewed and he states he has land in Westmeath.

Albert Johnson

josephsoap wrote: »

Ha, funnily enough in the Farmers journal this week, a farmer from Manorhamilton/Leitrim is interviewed and he states he has land in Westmeath.

You'd nearly be in the farming minority locally if you haven't a place taken "up the country" somewhere. A lot of the Leitrim lad's have grass land rented usually starting around Elphin or Strokestown in Roscommon and going on up into Longford, Meath and Westmeath.

Once you go below Manorhamilton they often go into the North looking for ground to rent but a lot of the Drumkeeran, Drumshanbo, Dowra and Ballinamore based lad's go somewhere up the Midlands. Most of those lads would be running large stock numbers and would have sizeable entitlement values. It's not something I'd ever consider (it would kill me to pay for the privilege of farming a place) but it seems to work for them as they stick at it. Most places would be 50 acres or more so there's lots of money involved but you'd need a good acreage to make it worthwhile. With a lot of lad's they put a bundle of cow's, calves and a bull up there in late spring and the weanlings go straight from there to the mart in the autumn before bringing the cow's home to the shed until the following spring.

josephsoap

Albert Johnson wrote: »

You'd nearly be in the farming minority locally if you haven't a place taken "up the country" somewhere. A lot of the Leitrim lad's have grass land rented usually starting around Elphin or Strokestown in Roscommon and going on up into Longford, Meath and Westmeath.

Once you go below Manorhamilton they often go into the North looking for ground to rent but a lot of the Drumkeeran, Drumshanbo, Dowra and Ballinamore based lad's go somewhere up the Midlands. Most of those lads would be running large stock numbers and would have sizeable entitlement values. It's not something I'd ever consider (it would kill me to pay for the privilege of farming a place) but it seems to work for them as they stick at it. Most places would be 50 acres or more so there's lots of money involved but you'd need a good acreage to make it worthwhile. With a lot of lad's they put a bundle of cow's, calves and a bull up there in late spring and the weanlings go straight from there to the mart in the autumn before bringing the cow's home to the shed until the following spring.

I would presume they would just set stock the farm for the year ? No tractor work or anything like that carried out on the rented land ?

They would hardly drive tractors that far.....

Hard Knocks

josephsoap wrote: »

I would presume they would just set stock the farm for the year ? No tractor work or anything like that carried out on the rented land ?

They would hardly drive tractors that far.....

Generally it’s set stocked with maybe pig slurry or fertilizer spread by contractors before cattle go up in early March
In a good few cases the owners have never farmed the land

Albert Johnson

josephsoap wrote: »

I would presume they would just set stock the farm for the year ? No tractor work or anything like that carried out on the rented land ?

They would hardly drive tractors that far.....

As Hard Knocks has said below it's generally set stocked with some work done by contractors. One big difference anyone coming from poorer ground would notice is how little work good land requires. For example spreading fertilizer and maintaining fencing is all a lot of this rented land would require compared to cleaning drains and clearing scrub ect on land at home.

Most of the smaller jobs could be completed either with a jeep or a quad so no need to transport bigger machinery. Usually they'll pay a haulier to draw the stock up and down the road and they can manage with minimal input for the grazing season. I used to spend a lot of time around Roscommon town, Athlone and surrounding areas and you'd see more Leitrim men then if you were at home. They'd all have farms beside each other and were carrying on there business the same as back in there own townland.

Rows Grower

Albert Johnson wrote: »

As Hard Knocks has said below it's generally set stocked with some work done by contractors. One big difference anyone coming from poorer ground would notice is how little work good land requires. For example spreading fertilizer and maintaining fencing is all a lot of this rented land would require compared to cleaning drains and clearing scrub ect on land at home.

Most of the smaller jobs could be completed either with a jeep or a quad so no need to transport bigger machinery. Usually they'll pay a haulier to draw the stock up and down the road and they can manage with minimal input for the grazing season. I used to spend a lot of time around Roscommon town, Athlone and surrounding areas and you'd see more Leitrim men then if you were at home. They'd all have farms beside each other and were carrying on there business the same as back in there own townland.

This is very true, I know a few south Kerry farmers that have worked and saved very hard that have invested in buying farms in Limerick and to a man they just think it's a doddle running a farm there while still working full time at the homestead.

Albert Johnson

Rows Grower wrote: »

This is very true, I know a few south Kerry farmers that have worked and saved very hard that have invested in buying farms in Limerick and to a man they just think it's a doddle running a farm there while still working full time at the homestead.

It see it myself as the small bit of land I farm ranges from good quality (good by West of Ireland standard's) to marginal land. The marginal land produces far less output but requires far more of my time, effort and investment.

The good land requires a bit of fencing maintenance, hedge cutting and very occasionally I top it or spread fertilizer. The marginal ground needs regular topping, clearing and spraying scrub, cleaning drains, putting in stone in gaps ect as well as fencing and cutting hedge's. There's never much work to do on the good land but I can do it year round where as the marginal land is too wet most of the year to tackle the endless list of jobs. I'm not even that badly off when you see some of the so called land some lads have to work with. A local character terms the worst of it as only "map acre's".

Dickie10

Albert Johnson wrote: »

You'd nearly be in the farming minority locally if you haven't a place taken "up the country" somewhere. A lot of the Leitrim lad's have grass land rented usually starting around Elphin or Strokestown in Roscommon and going on up into Longford, Meath and Westmeath.

Once you go below Manorhamilton they often go into the North looking for ground to rent but a lot of the Drumkeeran, Drumshanbo, Dowra and Ballinamore based lad's go somewhere up the Midlands. Most of those lads would be running large stock numbers and would have sizeable entitlement values. It's not something I'd ever consider (it would kill me to pay for the privilege of farming a place) but it seems to work for them as they stick at it. Most places would be 50 acres or more so there's lots of money involved but you'd need a good acreage to make it worthwhile. With a lot of lad's they put a bundle of cow's, calves and a bull up there in late spring and the weanlings go straight from there to the mart in the autumn before bringing the cow's home to the shed until the following spring.

So your saying these lads can make sucklers pay and rent land on top of that, where other farmers owning thier own land cannot make suckler to weanling pay? i dont understand that.

Albert Johnson

Dickie10 wrote: »

So your saying these lads can make sucklers pay and rent land on top of that, where other farmers owning thier own land cannot make suckler to weanling pay? i dont understand that.

I'm not saying they can make suckler's pay as such but they can make the entire system work for them. It's a way of life for the most of them and often the only life they know to an extent. Many of them have sizable entitlement values due to having been very actively farming in the reference year's.

The brown envelope is often subsidising the entire venture along with off farm income ect. If the cattle leave a small profit and you've perhaps tens of thousands of a Basic Payment then what's to stop you continuing.It's like everything you probably get used to it and they have a serious gra for it. As for those who own the land I can't comment but some of them make no effort to farm it good or bad in my experience because they have zero interest in it.

Dickie10

yea maybe the have a simpler way of life down there, somebody said that to me before, they just live within their means. I often find it amazing that take for instance Galway races you would always be chatting to some group over the week and you can nearly know it will always be the same few counties, Cork, Tipp, Kildare, Meath, Limerick usually. A few counties i have never ran into groups from down at it such as Lietrim, Longford,Monaghon, Cavan, Donegal even Mayo although its beside it. The northern counties its usually Down and Armagh.

Albert Johnson

Dickie10 wrote: »

yea maybe the have a simpler way of life down there, somebody said that to me before, they just live within their means. I often find it amazing that take for instance Galway races you would always be chatting to some group over the week and you can nearly know it will always be the same few counties, Cork, Tipp, Kildare, Meath, Limerick usually. A few counties i have never ran into groups from down at it such as Lietrim, Longford,Monaghon, Cavan, Donegal even Mayo although its beside it. The northern counties its usually Down and Armagh.

There's a wide variety of lad's and the occasionally lass at it but there all savage hard workers because they have to be. Some of them have young families and are away working Monday to Friday while others are bachelor's living at home with there 90 year old mother.

I know lots of fella's who spend the day tipping around between different bits of rented ground at 25mph in a 98 reg Trooper or Land cruiser. There only real expense after diesel being maybe 20 silk cut blue or similar. There's more lads spend the week on a building site and spend the weekend tearing around the Midlands in a 151 jeep doing a weeks work in a day and a half having first drove for an hour or more up the road. The owner of the leased farm is doing his own thing and is grateful to get an interested tenant. I'll not say who's right or wrong but everyone makes it work for them and that's what counts.

Bleating Lamb

Only my opinion but a lot of the farmers be they part time or full time who go ‘up the country’ from counties like Leitrim,Sligo,Cavan,Mayo do so because they were raised on a holding of very average to mixed quality land as children.They have a natural interest in farm and grew up on a farm where their parents worked hard to raise a family without any outside income in a lot of cases.
When the first ‘explorers’ rented land up the country in places like Longford,Roscommon,Westmesth they soon learned that that their stock be it suckers with weanlings or ewes with lambs could thrive inside out....with far less inputs because the rented lands was of great ‘feeding quality’....apart from the high price of the rent ,and diesel costs up and down to herd stock the rented land would feed three times the stock per acre than any acre at home would!
Usually they would throw a few pound to man renting to them to ‘herd’ during the week....this was nice for him too as it kept him in the farming loop.
Often the rented land has great yard and shed facilities and the Western farmers simply would not have them at home.
Undoubtedly a lot of these fellas going up the country have large entitlement payments coming in which help to fund the whole thing BUT they worked very hard to build up and maintain stock levels during the reference years.
They would often leave their own land idle at home from around September on to let grass build up to bring ewes home to lamb in March or bring cows home from slatted shed out the country to calve at home.
System works well for the man renting who may well have an off farm job Monday to Friday and ‘farm at weekends’ and also works well for lab lettingvthe land as he gets a progressive hardworking man or woman in looking after his or her farm well as it’s in their interests to do so.These ‘travelling farmers have the thing down to a fine art and would give up doing it in the morning if they were not making a profit out of it imo.

Dickie10

Amazing insight into it. i never was aware these people existed, lick i have said before around my country farming culture has become less and less prevalent. there are a few young lads who love driving but the sheen wears off once the hit 22 -23. the girlfriend wants more than a farm labourer when she see what others in suburbia have. I think also work is easily got even for labourers or unskilled, there always building work going on even in recession in Dublin, Meath/kildare. Guys into sport dont want much to do with farming because they want to train in evenings and play games at weekends. Its very hard to get farm workers in this area and relief lambers /milkers always are from Cavan, Longford area. theres a huge amount of farms let out around me must be up on 1000 acres among 4 farms. Bigger farmers coming in at huge scales either tillage or dairy.

orchard farm

Lots of local lads in cavan take land in roscommon or westmeath never made sence to me but its obviously down to high sfp and havin heavy weanings for show in local marts.i asked my father one time why they travelled hours just to herd stock his responce was "ah shur the eejits let their neighbouring farms be sold to forestry and now have to run the roads."personally i cant see how it pays,busy fools if you ask me

Dinzee Conlee

orchard farm wrote: »

Lots of local lads in cavan take land in roscommon or westmeath never made sence to me but its obviously down to high sfp and havin heavy weanings for show in local marts.i asked my father one time why they travelled hours just to herd stock his responce was "ah shur the eejits let their neighbouring farms be sold to forestry and now have to run the roads."personally i cant see how it pays,busy fools if you ask me

You could apply that line to most of farming really could you not, even if it was on your doorstep

Hard Knocks

orchard farm wrote: »

"ah shur the eejits let their neighbouring farms be sold to forestry and now have to run the roads.

It’s hard for suckler farmers to get money to buy land, and there’s massive demand for it by investors

orchard farm

Hard Knocks wrote: »

It’s hard for suckler farmers to get money to buy land, and there’s massive demand for it by investors

I know that very well and alot of farmers round me wouldnt entertain buyin land there happy enough to rent land up the country an hour or more away just dont see how it pays any better than farming at home when you add your costs and time

Mooooo

Depending on part of the country the repayments on buying 50 acres would cover the rent for 150 acres. Fair enough you'll have the land at the end of the repayments but in terms of growing the business renting is prob the better bet at times

josephsoap

Mooooo wrote: »

Depending on part of the country the repayments on buying 50 acres would cover the rent for 150 acres. Fair enough you'll have the land at the end of the repayments but in terms of growing the business renting is prob the better bet at times

Especially now with stamp duty now at 7.5%

Hard Knocks

Mooooo wrote: »

Depending on part of the country the repayments on buying 50 acres would cover the rent for 150 acres. Fair enough you'll have the land at the end of the repayments but in terms of growing the business renting is prob the better bet at times

Rent at €150/ac and buy at €6000/ac
Without the additional extras would take 40 years

cute geoge

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Rent at €150/ac and buy at €6000/ac
Without the additional extras would take 40 years

When you look back the years do not be long slipping,if the right parcel came up for sale near me I would almost walk on coals to buy it .Last year that parcel came up for lease ,I baulked when the price hit €350 .I would have some land parcels rented right for over 20 years now and at this stage I do not think I will ever get the chance to buy any nice parcel of land