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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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linguist

km79 wrote: »

I will have to make at least two round trips of an hour and a half to the school due to not being able to complete these digitally FFS

I entirely agree that this is unacceptable and I am sorry that another respondent was dismissive towards you about it.

I am reliant on public transport, my school is on the far side of Dublin and an amazon order for facemasks is stuck somewhere between here and China. I am not travelling to the school - full stop. Neither am I going to the post office.

I will print off the forms, sign them, scan them and email them in. That should be perfectly sufficient. Nowhere can we be expected to put ourselves at risk to do this work. That is an absolute red line with me and it should be the same for everyone.

r93kaey5p2izun

jprender wrote: »

Do I need to teach to offer an opinion ?

I’m an accountant with a postgrad in statistics, so things like this interest me.

An interested observer, that is all.

No. I just find your opinion very unusual and wondered if it might be subject related.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

It would depend on the individual student. In my experience the vast majority of students with those results would achieve at least a H3. Often better.

I find that comment strange. The student has maintained the same grade of just under 60% for 2 years yet you would expect the same student to gain an extra 10% at a minimum, and probably an extra 20% in the exam.

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong - it just emphasises the chasm that exists between teachers undertaking the same task.

km79

linguist wrote: »

I entirely agree that this is unacceptable and I am sorry that another respondent was dismissive towards you about it.

I am reliant on public transport, my school is on the far side of Dublin and an amazon order for facemasks is stuck somewhere between here and China. I am not travelling to the school - full stop. Neither am I going to the post office.

I will print off the forms, sign them, scan them and email them in. That should be perfectly sufficient. Nowhere can we be expected to put ourselves at risk to do this work. That is an absolute red line with me and it should be the same for everyone.

It’s just so frustrating in that it is COMPLETELY needless . Especially in the current climate . I had hoped I misread it but it states it twice
I am admittedly cranky after a week of online corrections which I was just coming to the end of before this landed

r93kaey5p2izun

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

I find that comment strange. The student has maintained the same grade of just under 60% for 2 years yet you would expect the same student to gain an extra 10% at a minimum, and probably an extra 20% in the exam.

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong - it just emphasises the chasm that exists between teachers undertaking the same task.

In my experience of the students I have taught, yes. Most of them would.

km79

Blondini wrote: »

Sigh, practical subject 'teacher' with a simple pass degree;
Why did I bother?

Am I doing this right

No I don’t believe that you are !
This is not After Hours

rainbowtrout

jprender wrote: »

Surely that would be a huge improvement considering the mocks were marked too easy.

Before the mocks, they were on a downward trend and were on a high H5.

In my opinion, a H3 is not achievable based on “evidence”.

Well I can't comment specifically on a case where I don't know the student or how they were working in class etc. Just on the four house exams, their average is around 60, so H4 is correct in that instance. But for the teacher who teaches them the evidence they have from their classroom might justify it.

Blondini

Subjectivity and interpretation within subject departments in a school, extrapolated, on a national scale is a frightening prospect.

The raw data, before national standardisation, would be an interesting statistics lesson on skewed distributions!

Bobtheman

I still feel it was a terrible mistake to cancel the exam. I believe it could have been done. With planning.
This will be a mess.
I'm giving benefit of the doubt to students in the range of 10-15% plus.
Once a Time machine is invented I will go back and test the fxxx Out of students while keeping copious notes.

jimmytwotimes 2013

I think the schools curves will be applied so I could give the whole class H1s and it won't matter. The ranking will matter

Treppen

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

I find that comment strange. The student has maintained the same grade of just under 60% for 2 years yet you would expect the same student to gain an extra 10% at a minimum, and probably an extra 20% in the exam.

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong - it just emphasises the chasm that exists between teachers undertaking the same task.

What do you mean by the same task?

In Any event to be fair to such students you have to assume everything goes right for them on the day of the exam with respect to their capabilities presented in school.
You know yourself who just can't get the Trigonometry proofs, so no matter how easy the exam they will still struggle, and then there's students who are doing fine with regular questions but anything outside the box and they're stuck, so you assume there are no clangers on the day and grade accordingly.
So a 'formative' 60% could easily see a summative 70%

I think the document is fair enough, in the sense that it says it wont be banging on your door looking for hard documentary evidence, it's relying on your overall judgement backed by whatever evidence you've witnessed (that could be by answering or asking questions verbally in class too!).

Blondini

km79 wrote: »

No I don’t believe that you are !
This is not After Hours

Correct!
You could be a teacher one day.

One was referring to the fact that you took the time to search my post history, and then in the usual unpunctuated slovenly style and manner, you 'sighed' to gain popularity.

I know all these funny symbols that I am using are hard to follow, but please persevere.

Similarly, I reciprocated and summarised your credentials based on your post history ; predicated grade is a pass degree.

Now, back to the important issue.
The students.

Treppen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I think the schools curves will be applied so I could give the whole class H1s and it won't matter. The ranking will matter

It stated that the position on the ranking wont change in your class. But then again within that they might move students but maintain the position. I really doubt they will though. It would want to be some statistical machine which takes account of subjectivity.

Any appeals they'll just check the maths and tell the student to sit the exam later.

TheDriver

closed for now while ye calm down

Edit: open again. Behave. No personal abuse or other crap that you'd put a teenager in detention for.

History Queen

Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

I've given up reading the document now after finding myself having to reread sections. I'm too annoyed about the whole situation to absorb it properly. I'll read it with a clear head tomorrow.

deiseindublin

History Queen wrote: »

Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

I've given up reading the document now after finding myself having to reread sections. I'm too annoyed about the whole situation to absorb it properly. I'll read it with a clear head tomorrow.

I'm presuming TUI, as ever, just couldn't be bothered, and are saying yes to anything suggested.

deiseindublin

This thread is going to be inundated with cranks and posters with chips on shoulders the next while, it'd be great if we could just ignore them and hope they slope off again.

I have two issues:
1. WHEN is this going to happen, when will it be done? I've already given up Easter and working into the night and over full weekends since March 12.

2. My other issue is LCA. I'm annoyed that they want us to give % estimates for them, when their exam results and my mock results are in credits. I'll have to work backwards to get a %, and while I'm happy with my calculation abilities, it's another thing that can go wrong if a person not comfortable with figures. Why mix up the systems? Makes no sense.

Bananaleaf

History Queen wrote: »

Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

I've given up reading the document now after finding myself having to reread sections. I'm too annoyed about the whole situation to absorb it properly. I'll read it with a clear head tomorrow.

These are my sentiments exactly.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Done reading.

As to when you start, the answer is now. Gather your data, project your grades and plan your remote meeting for next week.

Any student who may opt out of the process will still have a grade predicted by the teacher but it won't be signed off on (not the teachers problem).

A student who changes level will have to be reassessed at that level by their teacher.

Fill in Form A and Form B for the principal and your part of the process is then done.

TUI only

Blondini

Full disclosure.

I am teaching maths HL.
I am feeling the pressure.

One student of these is borderline H1 but most are not.
Two girls I would have recommended to drop on the day.

Tough calls.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Blondini wrote: »

Full disclosure.

I am teaching maths HL.
I am feeling the pressure.

One student of these is borderline H1 but most are not.
Two girls I would have recommended to drop on the day.

Tough calls.

Hopefully the two girls will decide to drop when given the chance

acequion

History Queen wrote: »

Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

As an ASTI member I'm happy that they are insisting on water tight indemnity. I do feel that my interests are being defended.

The document is both vague and fussy. I have my doubts about this alignment process. Is it some sort of glorified CBA? Or just another talking shop? While I get the need for consistency, it could be tedious and time consuming.

And if the principal doesn't like anything he can be back again having us rejigging all sorts of fussy details. Our principal is a stickler for minutiae.

I wouldn't be too worried about the "evidence" bit as I think it was made clear that it differs widely. I reckon the filling in of forms A and B will be the easiest bits. The fun starts then!

Our last week of term when we're always on our knees and more so this year and we have the biggest challenge of our career. :eek: You couldn't make it up!

Bananaleaf

Am worried that all of this is going to lead to us being made to do even more paperwork than we already do. Being required to keep official records of everything in the event that it may ever be needed again.

I know that is going to come across as lazy to someone who doesn't teach - that I don't want to do more work (in fairness to non-teachers, they don't know how much paperwork that has to be done in a school year so I don't blame them for taking that view) but, it has only been since the school closure that I have realised how little time I have under normal circumstances to be giving detailed, regular, written formative feedback to individual children.

I can honestly say that for those who have engaged with me, the quality of attention and feedback they have gotten from me in the past two months has been better than what they've gotten in the past 2 years. Why? Because we are already stretched to breaking point with ridiculous and needless paperwork (that pink form for the LC orals anyone???????)

The school closure has been a blessing for me in a way. It has allowed me to let myself off the hook about not being able to deliver the kinds of lessons, reflections, assessments, feedback and administration that the inspectorate demand. No wonder I haven't been able to keep up - it's impossible!

I used to spend way more time making resources, designing my own games, planning extra-curricular trips and giving feedback to students. Now I just don't have the time. Paperwork is, in some shape or form, the main reason for that. I worry what will happen if they heap more on us going forward.

babybuilder

Surely the teachers in a department would have to agree on a similar approach to deciding marks. Wouldn't make sense to turn up at an alignment meeting coming at polar opposite approaches.

jimmytwotimes 2013

You don't keep copies of Form A or B.

Fill them in and deliver to your principal

jimmytwotimes 2013

babybuilder wrote: »

Surely the teachers in a department would have to agree on a similar approach to deciding marks. Wouldn't make sense to turn up at an alignment meeting coming at polar opposite approaches.

A shared standard is to be followed but not down to each and every single mark you might be giving a student.

babybuilder

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

A shared standard is to be followed but not down to each and every single mark you might be giving a student.

Of course not down to every mark but the criteria for deciding the marks. For example, which of the exams, the averages of which exams, using the mocks or not, the inclusion of other metrics etc

jimmytwotimes 2013

babybuilder wrote: »

Of course not down to every mark but the criteria for deciding the marks. For example, which of the exams, the averages of which exams, using the mocks or not, the inclusion of other metrics etc

The criteria seems to be, how do you think they would have done on the day.

Using what grades you have as a guide but not being confined to just hard data.

That's it

r93kaey5p2izun

babybuilder wrote: »

Of course not down to every mark but the criteria for deciding the marks. For example, which of the exams, the averages of which exams, using the mocks or not, the inclusion of other metrics etc

I hope not. The HL teacher might have given a brutally hard Christmas exam and marked hard to get students to settle down and focus and drive them on. The OL teacher might have given a soft exam and marked easier for encouragement to stop them giving up. Or vice versa. Why would both exams be treated the same in determining the calculated grade?

These exams are given by the individual teacher, using their own professional judgement of what is best for the specific students in front of them at the time. It's not one size fits all. These tests often have a largely formative role in student assessment and are often adapted as appropriate to achieve that aim. They are now being used for an unintended purpose. Only the teacher who gave and corrected the test knows how it should be considered in the case of each student.

joebloggs32

History Queen wrote: »

Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

I've given up reading the document now after finding myself having to reread sections. I'm too annoyed about the whole situation to absorb it properly. I'll read it with a clear head tomorrow.

Both unions would retain the services of a firm of solicitors. I'm sure both firms would have given their advice and now each union would be following it. Lawyers are like doctors, their opinions will often differ.