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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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ted1

L live, SL switched live. By linking them it’ll be permanently live.

Without seen a proper wiring guide. I’d say 1-4 are relays so 1 should be connected to L and the the NO ( normally open ) would be connected to SL.

When relay triggers it’ll close the circuit

deezell

Diagram of the esiprog es1 24/7
www.oeselectrical.co.uk/uploads/2/3/9/4/23949264/es-1-24-7installation-instructions.pdf

1 and 3 are Common and Normally Open, NO.
Connect 1 to Live from the boiler and 3 to SL with the link removed. You can connect 1 to the Live beside it in the programmer IF the boiler and Timer are on the same circuit breaker.

deezell

Ok, scrub my previous edit. If it fires when you cross live to terminal one, it's because the boiler has no live from its own source. Is there a live and neutral going to the boiler? If so the Live must be off. When you crossed 1 to the timer live, you were sending live back up to power the boiler and turn it on via the link to SL. Boiler should have its own L and N, the link removed and then timed live from terminal 3 of the timer back to the boiler SL. Someone was messing around by the looks of it.

maxamillius

I should have said the house was rewired last month

After the sparks finished the plumber went to test the heating and couldn’t get the boiler to fire via the programmer,

He then took the brown out of 1 on the programmer and placed it into L

The programmer is fed via a switched spur, so when the switch is off boiler is off, when switch is on boiler is on.

The black is taped up within the boiler

Only two flexes at the boiler, one 4 core in from programmer and one flex going out to pump

maxamillius

Is this how it should be done?

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

Is this how it should be done?

Ues,but just add a Jumper from Timer Live to Timer terminal 1. When the timer comes on, the relay connects 1 to 3, but these are volt free terminals. Not connected to anything, di you have to link the mains to terminal 1 yourself. Sparks my backside. Shocking, pardon the pun.

ted1

maxamillius wrote: »

I should have said the house was rewired last month

After the sparks finished the plumber went to test the heating and couldn’t get the boiler to fire via the programmer,

He then took the brown out of 1 on the programmer and placed it into L

The programmer is fed via a switched spur, so when the switch is off boiler is off, when switch is on boiler is on.

The black is taped up within the boiler

Only two flexes at the boiler, one 4 core in from programmer and one flex going out to pump

Did the sparks leave with a certificate saying it’s all good ?

Sounds link he didn’t do it right. Fairly basic stuff

deezell

That'll do it&#55357;&#56397;

maxamillius

Thanks for the help lads, much appreciated as always!

Should be able to sort without actually running additional cable.

I can use the brown from the 4 core flex looped off the live terminal in the programmer, this will be the permanent to the boiler.

Remove link from boiler and black then runs back to terminal 3 on programmer.

.75 flex should be ok for that?

maxamillius

ted1 wrote: »

Did the sparks leave with a certificate saying it’s all good ?

Sounds link he didn’t do it right. Fairly basic stuff

It’s certified alright, not sure how he went wrong with this to be honest.

Thank god for boards eh

deezell

Ideal system for a simple smart conversion. Wireless smart stat back to its receiver relay in place of the eziprog. Tado, Netatmo, Hive, Dayton wiser, simple install, with the stat located in a central area. Existing TRVs gives the option of later addition of matching smart TRVs in selected areas, to reduce costs and increase comfort.
Ideal logic boilers also have Open Therm digital boiler control for more efficient and accurate matching of boiler response to thermostat calls for heat. Tado, Wiser and Nest have these OT terminals. Just saying, in case you want a project.

championc

I've just replaced my controls with a full Tado system.

You most likely don't need anything on terminals 1 or 2. If the programmer is a 2 channel (CH and HW), it's likely that terminal 3 is the HotWater port and terminal 4 is for Central heating.

So this is more likely why the gobsh1te couldn't make it work.

maxamillius

championc wrote: »

I've just replaced my controls with a full Tado system.

You most likely don't need anything on terminals 1 or 2. If the programmer is a 2 channel (CH and HW), it's likely that terminal 3 is the HotWater port and terminal 4 is for Central heating.

So this is more likely why the gobsh1te couldn't make it work.

It’s actually only a single channel programmer so suspect I need to loop L to terminal 1 and then switched live out of 3 to boiler

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

It’s actually only a single channel programmer so suspect I need to loop L to terminal 1 and then switched live out of 3 to boiler

See if you can find a spec sheet for the programmer. Being a single channel, I think the Central Heating could well be still also on terminal 4 (like it would be on a 2 channel unit) and not on terminal 3

maxamillius

championc wrote: »

See if you can find a spec sheet for the programmer. Being a single channel, I think the Central Heating could well be still also on terminal 4 (like it would be on a 2 channel unit) and not on terminal 3

Looks like it’s 3, terminal 4 on the programmer looks like a dummy terminal

As a matter of interest, for an installation without thermostat and only TRVs, how does the boiler know to switch off?

Is it done by return temperature or something?

Cheers

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

Looks like it’s 3, terminal 4 on the programmer looks like a dummy terminal

As a matter of interest, for an installation without thermostat and only TRVs, how does the boiler know to switch off?

Is it done by return temperature or something?

Cheers

Just L, N and 3 so

If you had all TRV's only, then yes, the return temperature will turn off the BURNER part, but the circulation pump will continue running.

The Tado is a beautiful piece of kit. The Smart Thermostat actually controls the boiler to turn the whole thing on or off, depending on the temperature set within it's schedule. So you can somewhat tweak your setup to heat and then knock off rather than circulating for the evening.

I've got Tado TRV's on every rad and the temperature feels a lot more level than before. It basically now turns every room into it's own zone.

Footnote to anyone considering buying a Tado system - I bought V3+ packs on Amazon but I bought a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay. So the whole system thinks it's a subscription free V3, and I have Open Window Detection and GeoFencing

deezell

championc wrote: »

See if you can find a spec sheet for the programmer. Being a single channel, I think the Central Heating could well be still also on terminal 4 (like it would be on a 2 channel unit) and not on terminal 3

Its 3 alright, just look back 12 posts, I attached the installation and wiring instruction, post #1863

maxamillius

Appreciate all the assistance lads, never too late to learn.

Thank you

ted1

championc wrote: »

I've just replaced my controls with a full Tado system.

You most likely don't need anything on terminals 1 or 2. If the programmer is a 2 channel (CH and HW), it's likely that terminal 3 is the HotWater port and terminal 4 is for Central heating.

So this is more likely why the gobsh1te couldn't make it work.

And how would that work?

It’s a volt free contact, having nothing connected to 1 would mean 3 would just be an open circuit

paulgrogan.eu

championc wrote: »

Just L, N and 3 so

If you had all TRV's only, then yes, the return temperature will turn off the BURNER part, but the circulation pump will continue running.

The Tado is a beautiful piece of kit. The Smart Thermostat actually controls the boiler to turn the whole thing on or off, depending on the temperature set within it's schedule. So you can somewhat tweak your setup to heat and then knock off rather than circulating for the evening.

I've got Tado TRV's on every rad and the temperature feels a lot more level than before. It basically now turns every room into it's own zone.

Footnote to anyone considering buying a Tado system - I bought V3+ packs on Amazon but I bought a V3 Internet Bridge on eBay. So the whole system thinks it's a subscription free V3, and I have Open Window Detection and GeoFencing

Hi Champion,

Similarly I have just completed a full Tado install but I'm a small bit confused by your post above. At the moment my circulation pump is on 24/7, which I don't think is right. Although reading the above you say in 1 part it will be on, but in another it won't.

So am I correct to think that Tado should turn it off completely, including the circulation pump once it's satisfied all rooms are at or above the correct temp - IE: No heat required?

Cheers

P.

deezell

Circulation pump should only be on when the boiler is firing, and only for CH events if you have a gravity HW feed to HW cylinder. For fully pumped zoned systems, the pump is on whenever the boiler is on. This is just an extension of the boiler SL to the pump, but many boilers will have this pump live available on a seperate terminal in the boiler to facilitate wiring. It may be a direct tap of the incoming SL, but it may be from a relay in the boiler circuitry, as some boilers can be fired by low voltage, digital or OpenTherm controller/thermostat calls, so the pump will need live mains to operate when this occurs.

deezell

Championc was refering to Maxamillius question regarding a TRV only installation and no thermostat, so boiler is fired by a timer. He's correct to say that when all or even some TRVs close during this time interval the boiler will fire regardless until the flow temperature reaches the internal boiler stat limit and cuts. The boiler will cycle like this until the timer event ends or the TRVs open and cool the flow. It's not ideal for efficiency, and its important for a fully TRV installation that a boiler bypass path exists for the heating water to circulate in the event all TRVs are closed.

championc

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi Champion,

Similarly I have just completed a full Tado install but I'm a small bit confused by your post above. At the moment my circulation pump is on 24/7, which I don't think is right. Although reading the above you say in 1 part it will be on, but in another it won't.

So am I correct to think that Tado should turn it off completely, including the circulation pump once it's satisfied all rooms are at or above the correct temp - IE: No heat required?

Cheers

P.

Not quite

Only the Smart Thermostat can turn the whole system on or off. So it either needs to be wired to the boiler, or wirelessly connected to an Extension Kit.

If you cleverly set the system up, you can have it monitoring your most used room in the house, which can then, through schedules, control the boiler on and off.

Obviously, if the boiler is off (triggered by the Smart Thermostat), then any open TRV's will NOT cause the heating to kick in.

So be careful about where you place the Smart Thermostat.

deezell

If the TRVs are Tado smart TRVs, not mechanical ones, they can of course communicate wirelessly with the Tado stat, which in turn will call or cut the boiler on their behalf. If you only have normal TRVs, you should leave the one in the location of the Tado stat set higher than the Tado cut off tempremature, so it is able to heat that room and reach the Tado threshold, otherwise the Tado will never cut the boiler as the mechanical TRV will cut the heating to that room prematurely.

championc

deezell wrote: »

If the TRVs are Tado smart TRVs, not mechanical ones, they can of course communicate wirelessly with the Tado stat, which in turn will call or cut the boiler on their behalf. If you only have normal TRVs, you should leave the one in the location of the Tado stat set higher than the Tado cut off tempremature, so it is able to heat that room and reach the Tado threshold, otherwise the Tado will never cut the boiler as the mechanical TRV will cut the heating to that room prematurely.

Interesting, I didn't realize that the TRV's talk to the Smart Thermostat. But I just checked now and while I have "Heating" set to 21° from 18:00 and the Smart Thermostat is currently reading 20.9°, I can confirm that the boiler is currently off. I then checked all TRV's and indeed, all TRV's are reading the temperature in those rooms as equal or greater than the temperatures set for each room in each of their schedules

deezell

The TRVs will turn on the boiler via the thermostat even if the thermostat temperature setting is satisfied in its own location. The stat is acting as a wireless relay for the TRVs. iirc, you have to request this in your configuration, by contacting Tado support and getting them to add TRVs to use the main stat as a relay, otherwise they will just act like normal TRVs. I know if I turn up a TRV past its current room temperture, it fires the boiler via the main stat. Its not a perfect system unless every room has a smart TRV, including the one where the main stat is. By adding the TRV as a device to the same room as the main stat, you get to choose which of the devices is used as the measuring device for that room. If you select the TRV, the stat now becomes a relay, it's own temperature sensor is unused
If you chose the stat, the temperature sensor of the TRV is also unused, and the TRV is slaved to the main stat.
When a TRV had it's own 'room', there is no choice of measuring device unless you have two TRVs assigned to the same room, say two rads in the same room. One TRV becomes the slave of the others temperature settings.
Like I said, not perfect if you only have one or two TRVs and lots of other open rads. The boiler will fire for any TRV or stat request, and non TRV rads will heat for all these requests, including open rads nominally controlled by and in the same room as the main stat.

paulgrogan.eu

deezell wrote: »

The TRVs will turn on the boiler via the thermostat even if the thermostat temperature setting is satisfied in its own location. The stat is acting as a wireless relay for the TRVs. iirc, you have to request this in your configuration, by contacting Tado support and getting them to add TRVs to use the main stat as a relay, otherwise they will just act like normal TRVs. I know if I turn up a TRV past its current room temperture, it fires the boiler via the main stat. Its not a perfect system unless every room has a smart TRV, including the one where the main stat is. By adding the TRV as a device to the same room as the main stat, you get to choose which of the devices is used as the measuring device for that room. If you select the TRV, the stat now becomes a relay, it's own temperature sensor is unused
If you chose the stat, the temperature sensor of the TRV is also unused, and the TRV is slaved to the main stat.
When a TRV had it's own 'room', there is no choice of measuring device unless you have two TRVs assigned to the same room, say two rads in the same room. One TRV becomes the slave of the others temperature settings.
Like I said, not perfect if you only have one or two TRVs and lots of other open rads. The boiler will fire for any TRV or stat request, and non TRV rads will heat for all these requests, including open rads nominally controlled by and in the same room as the main stat.

Yep I can confirm that Deezel has this spot on.

So in reference to my earlier question, we had a slight misconfig in the wiring of our upstairs Smart Thermostat, which was keeping that zone valve open and thus keeping the circulating pump running. We've put that right now and the value is closing properly now and turning off the boiler including the pump.

Also, having read the above about the TRV's not calling the boiler, I can also validate that mine will do that via the Smart Stat, but as Deezel has pointed out, you need to contact Tado so they can connect all your stats to the correct circuit.

As some means of a thank you to everyone who has helped me out with this project, I intend to write up a quick review of my Tado install which is now completed over a week which might help some who either have a similar setup to me, or perhaps might need answers to all the questions I asked spread out over several comments.

But overall, massive shoutout to Deezel who was amazing with help on this.

P.

maxamillius

Sorted the boiler issue I was having so thanks to all who gave advice on the wiring! All up and running now.

Now to brush up on heating system controls!!!!

Ush1

Anybody know does Nest or Drayton Wiser work with multiple zones and Opentherm?

I have motorised valves for 2 zones and really want to make use of Opentherm which my boiler supports.

deezell

Ush1 wrote: »

Anybody know does Nest or Drayton Wiser work with multiple zones and Opentherm?

I have motorised valves for 2 zones and really want to make use of Opentherm which my boiler supports.

As a general rule, Opentherm will fire the boiler, while the valves will continue to be opened by the stat or it's receiver SL Relay. Normally the valves combine via their relays contacts to fire the boiler, but these may be disconnected, and the OT digital signal should now fire the boiler, and control it's output according to the thermostat call, either CH and/Or HW. If the boiler OT implementation allows, it should be able to switch to higher temperature flow for HW and HW+CH flow, with finer modulated control for CH only. In all cases this is for a single thermostat CH zone, and a timed HW zone. Adding a second smart thermostat CH zone with OT capability would require a a method of routing two OT sources to one OT boiler input. While this is defined in the OT protocol, I'm not aware of any implementations in current OT equipped smart stats. It is possibly to connect a simple NO contact stat (VOLT FREE!) across the boiler OT termimals, and under the protocol the boiler will now fire in smple on/off mode a la SL. Any OT connected stat will be ignored and its temperature feedback to the boiler will be lost until the volt free contacts open, whence OT modulated control of the heating will resume.