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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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Rodin

addaword wrote: »

Excellent question, well put. Some of them do not even acknowledge they are among the 5 best paid in the world. They will instead then deflect to the so called high cost of living here, and then question why did you not join the public service etc.

What sector of the labour force is NOT well paid by these same international standards?

How is the social welfare payment by these same international standards?

How is the €350 euro a week Covid payment by these same international standards?

EVERYBODY is well paid in this country by international standards.

The fact that the cost of living is high is a seperate matter.

addaword

Rodin wrote: »

What sector of the labour force is NOT well paid by these same international standards?

Whataboutery..

MadYaker

I don’t think cutting nurses pay in the aftermath of a pandemic is a runner politically. It would also be wrong imo.

Dylan94

tastyt wrote: »

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

There will probably be a comeback of starting pay, is lower or nurses in Australia or Dubai or somewhere earn more or have better conditions. Cost of living is another usual one, but we all have the same cost of living in this country whether we work in Google or the local coffee shop.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

While I cant speak for the public sector as a whole, I know that with teachers there isn't a general complaint of low pay. Rather the complaint is that those who started after 2011 have significantly lower salaries (and pensions) over the course of their entire careers than those who started before then.

They are not seeking pay increases for all members, rather they are seeking pay increases only for those who started after 2011, in order to bring them into line. Apart from that issue I think teacher pay is about right, not too high or too low.

Triangle

_Brian wrote: »

Momey is being borrowed 30 times cheaper now than during the last recession, not borrowing it and throwing essential workers under a bus is stupid.

Sweet Jesus, we've come full circle. Cheap money means borrow more......
That lead to the last financial crisis when we went from owing 40 bill to 240 billion in a short time.
Cheap interest today does not mean cheap interest in 5 years time.

I agree with the borrowing to get out of this, it's just your reasoning that credit is cheap NOW as a reason I disagree with.

Geuze

tastyt wrote: »

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

ALL workers in Ireland are among the top 5 in the world.

Solicitors, bank managers, CEOs, publicans, landlords.

Our rents are some of the highest rents in the world, so our landlords are among the best paid in the world.

Our legal and medical costs are very high, and our doctors and lawyers are among the highest paid in the world, yes.

Geuze

tastyt wrote: »

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

Our wages should be high, as we are a high-cost and high productivity country.

Geuze

LillySV wrote: »

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

All TD salary and expenses are all available.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/salaries/

TD wage = 96,189

Geuze

LillySV wrote: »

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

Show me I’m wrong

Lilly SV, here you go:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/salaries-and-allowances/parliamentary-standard-allowances/

The Parliamentary Standard Allowance (PSA) is an annual allowance that comprises the travel and accommodation allowance (TAA) and the public representation allowance (PRA). Members receive their PSA monthly in arrears.

TAA covers the costs associated with travel to and from Leinster House, overnights and, for TDs only, other travel expenses including constituency travel. Senators receive no payments for constituency travel.
PRA covers the costs associated with Members’ work as public representatives, such as office rental, leaflet printing and web hosting. The categories of expenses allowable under the PRA vary according to the Member’s role. PRA expenses must be vouched and are subject to an annual limit.

Geuze

LillySV wrote: »

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

And what press is crawling all over them... as i explained already ...to me it’s fairly clear rte and the indo have vested interests or some sort of arrangement .. they are highlighting or investigating nothing in regards to the govt, tds or ministers ....

Show me I’m wrong

It is all available, if you look.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/publications/?q=&topic%5B%5D=parliamentary-allowances

Geuze

Travel and Accommodation Allowance (TAA)

TAA rates are based on the distance from the Member’s normal place of residence to Leinster House by the shortest practicable route. On declaring this distance, each Member is assigned to one of the bands shown in the following table.

Band Number Distance TDs (annual) Senators (annual) Office Holders (annual)

Dublin <25km €9,000 €5,250 €6,300
1 >25km but <60km €25,295 €20,795 €22,011
2 <90km €27,315 €22,815 €24,435
3 >90km but <120km €28,665 €24,165 €26,055
4 >120km but<150km €29,669 €25,169 €27,260
5 >150km but<180km €30,015 €25,515 €27,675
6 >180km but<210km €30,350 €25,849 €28,076
7 >210km but<240km €30,685 €26,184 €28,478
8 >240km but<270km €31,365 €26,865 €29,295
9 >270km but<300km €32,035 €27,534 €30,098
10 >300km but<330km €32,715 €27,534 €30,915
11 >330km but<360km €33,395 €28,895 €31,731
12 >360km €34,065 €29,565 32,535

At the end of the year each Member must certify that the amount paid to them was applied in respect of expenses incurred for the purpose specified in the regulations. The TAA is calculated on the basis of 150 days attendance at Leinster House. However, Members must register their attendance in Leinster House for at least 120 days annually to retain the full allowance. A deduction of 1% of the TAA allowance is made for each day less than 120 days attended at the end of the year or relevant period. Where attendance recorded is less than the required number, the Member must repay the amount to be refunded within two months of the end of the year or of the relevant period.

Oireachtas office holders, excluding the Ceann Comhairle, are paid an allowance ranging from €6,300 per annum for Dublin based office holders to €32,535 per annum for those 360 km or more from Leinster House. The Ceann Comhairle may avail of an annual overnight allowance of up to €14,715. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle or Cathaoirleach may opt for payment of the overnight allowance only and apply for alternative travel arrangements with agreement of the Minister for Finance. Ministers, Ministers of State and the Ceann Comhairle are not entitled to claim the TAA.

In order to receive their TAA, Members must personally record their attendance in Leinster House once daily at any time during the day or evening when Leinster House is open. This can be done with their key fob on a terminal or by manually completing a sign-in form available in Leinster House. Completed sign-in forms are then reconciled on the System for Recording Attendance (SRA).

View Members’ attendance records (for the purposes of TAA)

The records published online show only the days recorded on the SRA. Figures are published one month in arrears. The figures remain provisional until completely verified at the end of the year. Records of individual Members can, under SI 84 of 2010, be reconciled up to 31 January for the previous year or within one month of the end of the relevant period. A Member who forgets his or her key fob or fails to record attendance on a day can provide evidence of attendance, which is reconciled on the system. Under SI 84 of 2010, Members are required to record their attendance and the SRA for Members was developed for that purpose. Members are NOT required to record their hours of attendance and, as such, the times at which Members register their attendance is not recorded. The regulations also provide that attendance records may be reconciled, for the appropriate number of days, if the Member can show that their attendance was not recorded at Leinster House due to:

Attendance abroad in the performance of his or her duties as a Member or as an Office Holder, or in the State, (otherwise than in Leinster House) as part of or on behalf of an Oireachtas Committee,
Ill-health certified by a medical practitioner (the Member must declare that the absence is medically certified),
Extraordinary circumstances, determined by the Ceann Comhairle or Cathaoirleach, as may be appropriate, to be good and sufficient and which could not have been foreseen by the Member. In this regard, a Member must apply to the Ceann Comhairle or Cathaoirleach as appropriate.

dresden8

600,000 people in receipt of PUP who are at home **** every day demand that the 300,000 public servants who are still at work every day pay for their troubles.

It's only fair.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

Excellent question, well put. Some of them do not even acknowledge they are among the 5 best paid in the world. They will instead then deflect to the so called high cost of living here, and then question why did you not join the public service etc.

Well I call shenanigans on this myth. Top 5? I can name 5 police forces in the us alone that earn more than Gardai.

Would you care to produce the evidence of this 'top 5' and demonstrate how the numbers have been calculated?

[Deleted User]

LillySV wrote: »

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

And what press is crawling all over them... as i explained already ...to me it’s fairly clear rte and the indo have vested interests or some sort of arrangement .. they are highlighting or investigating nothing in regards to the govt, tds or ministers ....

Show me I’m wrong

www.google.ie

GSBellew

purifol0 wrote: »

Plenty of other threads that comment on our social welfare system. If we discuss that even slightly I just know this one would go completely off topic, not that it's not a worthy conversation especially when you look at how much is spent on welfare but it really needs its own thread

Fair enough, back to your minimum wage point.

What's your cut off?

The person who determines if an applicant is entitled to an Irish passport or not?

The person who calculates your tax liability?

The person who determines if you are entitled to a social welfare payment?

The person who investigate fraudulent welfare claims?

The person who investigates tax fraud?

The person who calculates pension entitlements?

Are you seriously suggesting the state hire and train people locked at minimum wage to perform a function that they could earn substantially more for in the private sector?

They'll all just get trained and transfer.

How could revenue for example compete if they paid everyone minimum wage whilst the private sector paid the going wage, where would the brains be?

Same applies to the DPP, the HSE do I need to go on?

It'll take my wife 15 years to hit my current salary with a qualification that's not a whole lot lower.

[Deleted User]

tastyt wrote: »

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

There will probably be a comeback of starting pay, is lower or nurses in Australia or Dubai or somewhere earn more or have better conditions. Cost of living is another usual one, but we all have the same cost of living in this country whether we work in Google or the local coffee shop.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

There's a few issues here. Let me start by assuming you are genuinely curious and go from there.

First off, I cant speak for all sectors but I would be surprised if any public sector agency was in the top 5 globally. There's countries out there with higher costs and wages than Ireland. Top 5% maybe.

For nurses and the medical staff in general there's better money in Australia and a lot of middle East countries.

You say teachers, I genuinely don't know but it's not considered a well paid area in general I believe.

Police? Generally when people compare Gardai to other nations they are comparing the total amount for Gardai to the basic pay of other nations because they do lazy research. In reality Gardai get similar allowances to most forces. Sure not all are the same but it tends to be similar. Night allowance, Sunday, holidays and overtime being fairly common. Now, I can point to 8 forces just off the top of my head that earn more in plain numbers ignoring cost of living. London met, psni, nypd, San Francisco, California, Alaska, Australian federal police, swedish police and Norwegian.

Now, you can say as you have, "will that's the us and Australia" which is true mostly. There's also the UK and Scandinavian countries in there but then, they are the countries with higher salaries than the republic of Ireland. It's not just the public sector, it's all sectors.

Cost of living and the minimum wage effects these things. Of course we earn more than Eastern European or south Americans. So do you! Ireland is an expensive country.

Now the next part which concerns unions. I never understood this one. It's like the private sector doesn't have unions ended the largest unions in the country are representing private industries. Gardai don't even have a union. Soldiers and Gardai can't strike! So what unions are you referring to? There's nurses, teachers, prisons and civil servants. Oh and paramedics and fire fighters. When's the last time any went on strike? The prisons went out in the early 1980s. Teachers have staged small work to rules and nurses have staged limited service which in their case meant they still did 90% if their jobs.

Most strikes, most work to rules and most unions are firmly in the private sector. Builders, plumbers, electricians all under the cif. Waiters and service industry are in the baker's union. Guinness have a union just for them!

Jeez, it's only 5 years ago that mandate took their staff out on strike in dunnes stores. A lot more recent than any public sector strike.

So you finalise, public sector are well paid because Irish staff are well paid and the cost of living here demands it.

The debate between public and private is much greyer than people would like to admit. Gardai only work 30 years but banks give staff better mortgages. Companies give shares and bonuses, civil servants work 39 not 40 hours. And so on and so forth. Then there's part time staff being included in some numbers but not all. Senior management included? Yes in public sector, maybe in the private. Overtime? For Gardai it's included but it may it may not be included in your company but then you may be a salaries position and my experience of salaried position is that 40 hour week is a best case scenario and you best get used to working late. At least now if I get stuck working late, I get paid most of it. So each area has official and unofficial perks.. Some are common, some unique. It's a big pot of grey.

Hope that helps explain it better and remember, if you see someone doing well, aspire up, don't drag down.

[Deleted User]

MadYaker wrote: »

I don’t think cutting nurses pay in the aftermath of a pandemic is a runner politically. It would also be wrong imo.

I agree, very hard to see them do that. But I feel for the Healthcare attendants too. They are in very close contact with patients. Cleaning, feeding and toileting them. But they never get a mention.

noodler

dresden8 wrote: »

600,000 people in receipt of PUP who are at home **** every day demand that the 300,000 public servants who are still at work every day pay for their troubles.

It's only fair.

Nonsense tbh.

Tax has hit the floor and expenditure has ballooned.

[Deleted User]

purifol0 wrote: »

Actually what should be done is figure out if your job can be outsourced to the private sector for less. Even better figure out if you are needed at all. The entire public service is massively over staffed as is. And the last recession proved that even after a huge amount of workers opted for retirement, they were not replaced simply because it turns out they were doing nothing productive or necessary at all.

Are you another pen pusher that could be outsourced for less or even completely obsoleted by a half decent programmer? Because if you are a clerical officer you absolutely can be, and frankly thats how it should be.

The private sector does not exist so you people can have handy jobs for life.

How much less? 18,000. Because that's what been advocated here. It wouldn't even be minimum wage.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Having worked most of my life in the private, sector, I'm underpaid for what I do.

addaword

noodler wrote: »

Tax has hit the floor and expenditure has ballooned.

That is the reason public sector wages will be cut. Ask any TD privately and they will tell you the same.

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Having worked most of my life in the private, sector, I'm underpaid for what I do.

You can say the same about architects, vets, dentists, secretaries, cleaners, quantity surveyors. If and when they get a job in the public sector, they do not give it it up. Ever. Unless they are very ambitious.

Danzy

addaword wrote: »

That is the reason public sector wages will be cut. Ask any TD privately and they will tell you the same.

Will that be allowed by Brussels though?

Replaying the decisions that turned the Wall street crash in to a depression 3 years later isn't going to be tolerable to them.

The yanks are already looking at another multi trillion stimulus.

What would you do add a word if you had to run your own business and the reality of that, of life, overwhelmed your Libertarian ideology.

There is no hiding then.

You are hoping they accelerate the economic decline.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

You can say the same about architects, vets, dentists, secretaries, cleaners, quantity surveyors. If and when they get a job in the public sector, they do not give it it up. Ever. Unless they are very ambitious.

I was made redundant three times in the private sector in different sectors. Why would I give up a permanent job? I've a family to feed, bills to pay just like everyone else. I moved from being out of work to taking home €30 a week more than social welfare. Add to that the cost of working and the loss of social welfare benefits.
Let's start with social welfare and cut that. Why should we have a situation where I'm better off financially not working?

Danzy

SouthWesterly.

One should always be better off working than not, however any cuts at the moment are only going to accelerate the economic crisis.

OwaynOTT

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't think there will be pay cuts. But I do think any public sector workers who currently have no job (e.g. librarians) should be (temporarily) on the C19 payment.

If they’re not working they have been redeployed, so pretty ineffective saving proposal there.

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

Our rents are some of the highest rents in the world, so our landlords are among the best paid in the world.

.

Actually Dublin is only ranked 47th out of 209 cities surveyed worldwide for rents and property costs. Rents are much less in Roscommon and Thurles and down the country than in Dublin. So that is no excuse for having some of the best paid and pensioned public servants in the world. We are not a country rich in natural resources.

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It’s not still the case.

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

Sultan of Bling

Public v private = divide and conquer.

This is exactly what the politicians want when they bring in the inevitable cuts just like they did in 2009.

Please don't fall for it again. All workers public and private sector need to unite against the long term unemployed wasters and the Margaret cash"s of this world that hard working private and public sector workers are expected to fund.

Western_sean

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

...

Pensions are paid from current expenditure. If we wanted to switch to a DC scheme, we would have to pay pensions of current pensions AND pay contributions to the DC scheme for pensions of current staff for a generation. This is the cash flow issue.

You clearly don't understand the difference between policy and operations. Dept Health sets policy. HSE implements policy. It's not hard really.

And sure, great idea to rule out the consultants - we'll now need to double the size of the civil service so that internal staff can do all that work instead. You're ready to fund that, right?

It's not the cost of government that has risen exponentially like rents and property over recent years.

I think perhaps I should seek to gain more benefit from your insight in to public service culture and norms.

Are you aware of any flaws or waste in how public sector entities are run?

Are the any elements of the public sector you feel could be made more productive?

[Deleted User]

Western_sean wrote: »

I think perhaps I should seek to gain more benefit from your insight in to public service culture and norms.

Are you aware of any flaws or waste in how public sector entities are run?

Are the any elements of the public sector you feel could be made more productive?

you preparing a similar thesis on demand for "the private sector" are you?

the idea, right from the off, that public services should be mainly measured on efficiency is so deeply flawed with even a moment's thought that one ought be embarrassed to take such a poseur position

if a service was so easily rated by mere efficiency or profit was either the driver or possible then it wouldnt be a public service is the fairly obvious conclusion.

you could make a child understand that, if the child hadn't already made its mind up on the subject and wasn't only trying to score lazy points.

secondly, public sector cannot declare bankruptcy and walk away from its services. that means a totally different structure and ideology to any private enterprise.

thirdly, public services are provided to users, not customers, and paid for out of govt funds, levied from the usual range of sources, not shareholders or customers.

you, as a taxpayer (congrats on that by the way, literally everyone here you're arguing against is also a taxpayer) arent a customer, and aren't a shareholder. civil servants have a manager and a structure under which they answer, to a tightness to legislation, audit, public interest and scrutiny that is unheard of in any private organisation of comparable size or scale or otherwise.

the public service is run along slow but exceeding fine lines of command and practice for several good reasons, not least of which is that our govt changes every five odd years and the new bosses take two years to learn what the civil service (or their new dept if god help us they are a minister) actually does and why, and another two years to come up with a plan about how they might achieve whatever bastardized objectives their garbled manifesto cobbled together- leaving one year of execution, usually hampered by it being another election year.

the average boards-level complainant has frankly no idea how much protection the civil service profession/expertise actually provides to the wellbeing and stability of this country in fending off the TDs we as an electorate are stupid enough to vote in.

before ye start, the idea that a new disestablishment party like SF could come in and sweep all this elaborate custom-and-practice away like either their voters thought or their politicians pretended to think is such a laughable non-runner legally, politically or economically that it bears no further mention.

the worst two things about the civil service is when it tries to ape private sector ideology (neoliberalism out of silicon valley is the latest but cannot even be convincingly applied to silicon valley, let alone a public sector anywhere) and when it tries to justify its existence as a public sector cravenly to those with little wit enough to understand why

every. functioning. country. in. the. world. has. a. public. sector. that. costs. money. and. is. meant. to. cost. money.

the rest is noise.

now its a saturday lads so ive given ye that for free.

if ye want to discuss pay cuts, im always interested in what a non-manager, non-customer, non-shareholder has to say as long as its not uninformed ranting, or unmannerly.

have at.