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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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Western_sean

almostover wrote: »

....
The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

Deleted User wrote: »

I was around here for the last recession when the Public Service were attacked daily on boards. Facts like you have posted above get ignored. The anti PS people will not have their minds changed on anything. Total waste of time trying. You'd be as well just trolling them for your own entertainment.

These 2 quotes re highlight the problem for me. Public sector unions seem happy to go to bat to protect their least productive and most intransigent members to the detriment and those who are willing and productive.

Since public sector employees are largely unionised the union position is, to some extent correctly, seen as the position of the majority of the employees. Those who pay for these services have valid frustrations and until productive and hardworking public sector employees are willing to challenge the behaviour of unions in the public sector those frustrations will continue to exist.

Thelonious Monk

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

Geuze

FGR wrote: »

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when 137,000 people are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

Comparing crude PS pay with private sector pay is not appropriate, for many reasons, as you say.

After the adjustments have been made, the PS pay premium that did exist, has been reduced.

For men, it is practically zero.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

Note: lower paid PS tend to earn more, relative to the private sector.

Geuze

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No pay cuts for TD's of course.

TD wages are linked to a Civil Service grade.

They get exactly the same pay changes as PS.

So if PS pay is cut, their pay is cut.

That happened in 2008-2012, their pay was cut the exact same as all other PS.

Thelonious Monk

Geuze wrote: »

TD wages are linked to a Civil Service grade.

They get exactly the same pay changes as PS.

So if PS pay is cut, their pay is cut.

That happened in 2008-2012, their pay was cut the exact same as all other PS.

Are ministers linked to CS wages? I know the Ministers and PM in New Zealand all took 25% cut. Would be nice to see our lot do the same in solidarity.

Geuze

almostover wrote: »

The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

Yes, and instead of silly talk like "cut pay by 25%", we should be talking about eliminating these barriers to increased flexibility.

I am for unions fighting for pay and conditions, but I don't like resistance to change.

I would instead say the following:

to staff in a HSE unit: reduce barriers, change work practices, then you will get your pay restoration.

Geuze

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

Given that no country has ever done this, I wonder are you correct or incorrect?

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

Comparing crude PS pay with private sector pay is not appropriate, for many reasons, as you say.

After the adjustments have been made, the PS pay premium that did exist, has been reduced.

For men, it is practically zero.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

Note: lower paid PS tend to earn more, relative to the private sector.

For higher paid males, it is negative. You are better off in the private sector.

I suspect that that reflects rampant gender pay discrimination in the private sector as opposed to underpayment in the public sector, but I could be wrong.

Geuze

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are ministers linked to CS wages? I know the Ministers and PM in New Zealand all took 25% cut. Would be nice to see our lot do the same in solidarity.

A fair point.

Ministers get a TD salary, same as any TD, and subject to the same changes as any PS.

Ministers then get a ministerial allowance.

[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, and instead of silly talk like "cut pay by 25%", we should be talking about eliminating these barriers to increased flexibility.

I am for unions fighting for pay and conditions, but I don't like resistance to change.

I would instead say the following:

to staff in a HSE unit: reduce barriers, change work practices, then you will get your pay restoration.

Absolutely, change is necessary in any organisation if it helps provide a better service.

Thelonious Monk

Geuze wrote: »

Given that no country has ever done this, I wonder are you correct or incorrect?

Correct or incorrect about what?

kippy

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

They get given money by their employer just like private sector workers get given money by their employer. Them they give some of it back too in the form of various taxes, the same as their private sector colleagues.

fly_agaric

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back

That is not a neutral phrase though.
They get paid to do a job (employer is the state) rather than get "given" money [as some sort of gift from the largess of the bountiful private sector].

Also having some entire separate tax/benefits system for all public sector workers (would they still pay PRSI, how do entitlements to welfare work etc) seems alot more inefficient than just treating them as employees.

Thelonious Monk

kippy wrote: »

They get given money by their employer just like private sector workers get given money by their employer. Them they give some of it back too in the form of various taxes, the same as their private sector colleagues.

I just never understood why they bother putting the wage through the same tax system if it's all from the same pool. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

PARlance

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

People's tax credits can change for various reasons... paying people net would just be an administrative nightmare. You can't have a contract based on net pay... well you can but it would be plain wrong. There's nothing wrong with the current and correct way of doing it.

And the public service do pay tax, just like I pay tax that my employer pays on behalf of me.

almostover

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, and instead of silly talk like "cut pay by 25%", we should be talking about eliminating these barriers to increased flexibility.

I am for unions fighting for pay and conditions, but I don't like resistance to change.

I would instead say the following:

to staff in a HSE unit: reduce barriers, change work practices, then you will get your pay restoration.

Fully agree, it should be used as a carrot, not a stick. Pay restoration and rises should be based on improved service efficiency. But the money has to be in the exchequer to afford those raises or restorations also.

Nika Bolokov

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

Yeah it worked really well the last time.

cms88

mariaalice wrote: »

What is the obsession with nurses? there are hundreds of thousands of other public servants.

Sure did you not know there's no other front line worker at the moment only nurses?

cms88

ShareShare wrote: »

Its a pandemic. They're risking their lives to help save us.
When its not a pandemic, when you are at your weakest.. they help you.

This is why we care about them.

There are pleny of others in the private sector who have been putting themselves at risk but we hear little about them

addaword

cms88 wrote: »

Sure did you not know there's no other front line worker at the moment only nurses?

What about all the overpaid and under worked public sector dentists, architects, librarians etc?

LillySV

almostover wrote: »

I work in a high tech manufacturing industry and this attitude of pay rises in the public sector have been agreed and were expecting them to be paid given the current economic depression is ludicrous. The money simply wont be available in the economy to support previously agreed public sector pay rises. COVID-19 has changed the playing field totally. The exchequer returns from the hospitality sector will be decimated. How can the public sector push for pay rises based on previously agreed deals knowing the money wont be there to pay for it?

In my own company many operators have been at home on 80% these past few weeks as demand for our product went to near zero in the space of a few weeks. Management levels in the company took a 10% pay cut in solidarity with them. Many temporary contracts have been cancelled. Luckily middle earners like me have survived without pay cuts so far and with our jobs intact.

The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

You realise that the public sectors net pay is a fraction of gross...not just as a result of the extra levies that everyone has to pay.. but also extra “pension levies” that were on top of a number of pension deductions already been made ... and even then gross pay for numerous positions have been lowered... so most in public service on way less than they were in 2008... the increases were supposed to be to re instate the pay to the levels they had in first place.... even though public servants paying out way more and getting a lot less net pay... less pay than they had 12 years ago in 2008!! Even though inflation and cost of living is way higher.

Anyways your Also stating that loads in your Workplace at home on 80%... so no travel expenses... long holiday while a lot of the same public servants you have a problem with are flat out Working at moment and putting their lives at risk contact tracing ,setting up covid payments for a lot of the country , meeting and dealing with infected people in health service .... resulting in many getting covid 19 through their work ...

And you think they should get less!! Come on... you feeding on the anti public service dribble rte and the indo publish every couple of weeks...

coolshannagh28

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I just never understood why they bother putting the wage through the same tax system if it's all from the same pool. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Pat Kenny debated this last week with Paschal ; Pat won.

LillySV

cms88 wrote: »

There are pleny of others in the private sector who have been putting themselves at risk but we hear little about them

I think the staff in the shops are legends... putting themselves at risk every day to keep the nation fed... even while many of their flat mates at home getting 350 which is probably not much less than what they getting for risking their health

addaword

LillySV wrote: »

I think the staff in the shops are legends... putting themselves at risk every day to keep the nation fed... even while many of their flat mates at home getting 350 which is probably not much less than what they getting for risking their health

I know some retired public servants who are getting paid treble (for not working) what shop what shop workers are paid for working.

khalessi

addaword wrote: »

I know some retired public servants who are getting paid treble (for not working) what shop what shop workers are paid for working.

You do realise they put in 40 years work to do that, they didnt just sit on their asses, they survived 60% taxes in 70s etc raised you and got you to where you are.

addaword

khalessi wrote: »

You do realise they put in 40 years work to do that, they didnt just sit on their asses, they survived 60% taxes in 70s etc raised you and got you to where you are.

30 years in the case of Gardai, I know some retired on full pension in their early fifties.

Thelonious Monk

addaword wrote: »

30 years in the case of Gardai, I know some retired on full pension in their early fifties.

I think it's great that Garda get to retire after 30 years. We should be emulating this kind of thing in the private sector not lambasting them and trying to get everyone to work till 70.

khalessi

addaword wrote: »

30 years in the case of Gardai, I know some retired on full pension in their early fifties.

I have no problem with that as it is a tough job.

addaword

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think it's great that Garda get to retire after 30 years. We should be emulating this kind of thing in the private sector not lambasting them and trying to get everyone to work till 70.

Who do you think pays the public sector pensions?

PARlance

cms88 wrote: »

Sure did you not know there's no other front line worker at the moment only nurses?

It's not that hard to see why nurses are getting the most kudos, is it. Front line, in the firing line. I know 2 and both got it, one got it very bad and they wasn't far away from having to be put in an induced coma. Back to work a few weeks later as well.

Shop workers etc are getting acknowledged as well but Facebook posts/campaigns etc don't pick up as much attention... and for obvious reasons when you compare against nurses.