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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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addaword

noodler wrote: »

They has been pay increases every year since 2016. They included reductions in PRD /threshold changes as well as gross increases.

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

that post was already rejected as factually incorrect

pay was restored, not increased, and the PRD was assimilated into a fairly significant new pension charge

so tacking your point on to it lends you no credibility

public servants accept pay and terms from their employer with the knowledge that the govt dont go out of business and the inherent security in that.

theres no get rich quick, no stocks and share, no fiddling the taxman. and we dont get to leave our customers in the lurch if profits go downhill.

we are just a better class of a thing than the private sector all told and the grubby urchins cant bear it.

Jim Root

What price job security eh?

[Deleted User]

Jim Root wrote: »

What price job security eh?

on one hand the berate us with job security

on the other they scweam to take it off us.....just when it becomes relevant

an awful bunch, id say they struggle badly tbh.

lads, get out and march for taxing the rich. get the coffers of the state nice and full so that we can provide ye with the services ye deserve and dont be annoying us looking at our salaries and pensions, ye will only upset yerselves.

saabsaab

Just Be Confident Bro wrote: »

I'm a civil servant. I am supposed to get a pay rise this year and go up two points on the scale (an extra point for pay restoration).

I will be seriously fcukin pissed if that does not happen.

Don't worry they won't touch it.

Sierra Oscar

The public sector pay negotiations that are due to take place later in the year for 2021 - 2023 will obviously be shaped by current events, but I don't see any pay cuts on the horizon. The pay increases due later in the year will also go ahead as planned as it has already been budgeted for and the required productivity measures have already been delivered on by public sector workers.

The Government would be going against it's own pay deal if they renege on the pay rises that it negotiated and naturally the public sector unions wouldn't engage in future pay negotiations if that occurred. The last thing the Government wants right now is all out strikes in the public sector.

purifol0

Deleted User wrote: »

on one hand the berate us with job security

on the other they scweam to take it off us.....just when it becomes relevant

an awful bunch, id say they struggle badly tbh.

lads, get out and march for taxing the rich. get the coffers of the state nice and full so that we can provide ye with the services ye deserve and dont be annoying us looking at our salaries and pensions, ye will only upset yerselves.

The budget for public services just goes to public sector pay & pensions.

Garda Budget - 90% spent on pay - common complaint from members "We are so under resourced". Avg garda on 67K or 100K when pension is factored in.

HSE budget - bigger every year, 100,000+ employees - nurses straight out of college going on strike purely for more money closing cancer wards because but hey they're are angels somehow. Joe public cant even get an appointment, so one in two have private health care

Army - 75% budget spent on pay and pensions -no money left to actually run the equipment.

Education - no money for infrastructure just pay & pensions, sorry kids you're going to have to go easy in the portakabins they're basically permanent. Teachers work so many hours, except the world plus dog knows they don't, and I'm not even talking about their holidays.

Semi states - privatize profits and socialize losses - CIE are going bankrupt - what do they do? reduce pay in line with every other biz? Never! Just moan at the govt to cover there losses so they can continue to drive empty buses around and not be inconvienced by the nasty economics of reality.

Civil service - get to retire earlier than the private sector worker, no particular reason except one rule for them and one for the rest of us. Thanks Labour!

Private sector pays for the public sector, but when there's not enough money what happens? Govt just borrows it and heaps it on the national debt - screw financial responsibility - that wont buy the votes of the public sector unions. Which has us in the very mess were in now. A public sector on avg paid more that 40% more than the private sector worker it leeches off of.

noodler

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

Part restoration, not increases.

Semantics.

Whether you feel you are owed it or not is irrelevant.

The fiscal imperative always takes precedence.

A pay increase a year, increments, new deal entrants, rent allowance for new gardai, nurses only deal, it all adds up.

[Deleted User]

purifol0 wrote: »

The budget for public services just goes to public sector pay & pensions.

Garda Budget - 90% spent on pay - common complaint from members "We are so under resourced". Avg garda on 67K or 100K when pension is factored in.

HSE budget - bigger every year, 100,000+ employees - nurses straight out of college going on strike purely for more money closing cancer wards because but hey they're are angels somehow. Joe public cant even get an appointment, so one in two have private health care

Army - 75% budget spent on pay and pensions -no money left to actually run the equipment.

Education - no money for infrastructure just pay & pensions, sorry kids you're going to have to go easy in the portakabins they're basically permanent. Teachers work so many hours, except the world plus dog knows they don't, and I'm not even talking about their holidays.

Semi states - privatize profits and socialize losses - CIE are going bankrupt - what do they do? reduce pay in line with every other biz? Never! Just moan at the govt to cover there losses so they can continue to drive empty buses around and not be inconvienced by the nasty economics of reality.

Civil service - get to retire earlier than the private sector worker, no particular reason except one rule for them and one for the rest of us. Thanks Labour!

Private sector pays for the public sector, but when there's not enough money what happens? Govt just borrows it and heaps it on the national debt - screw financial responsibility - that wont buy the votes of the public sector unions. Which has us in the very mess were in now. A public sector on avg paid more that 40% more than the private sector worker it leeches off of.

be a good post if backed with any facts

accounts are public. your assertions are all incorrect.

rest is opinion, old, tired and many times refuted.

talla10

purifol0 wrote: »

The budget for public services just goes to public sector pay & pensions.

Garda Budget - 90% spent on pay - common complaint from members "We are so under resourced". Avg garda on 67K or 100K when pension is factored in.

HSE budget - bigger every year, 100,000+ employees - nurses straight out of college going on strike purely for more money closing cancer wards because but hey they're are angels somehow. Joe public cant even get an appointment, so one in two have private health care

Army - 75% budget spent on pay and pensions -no money left to actually run the equipment.

Education - no money for infrastructure just pay & pensions, sorry kids you're going to have to go easy in the portakabins they're basically permanent. Teachers work so many hours, except the world plus dog knows they don't, and I'm not even talking about their holidays.

Semi states - privatize profits and socialize losses - CIE are going bankrupt - what do they do? reduce pay in line with every other biz? Never! Just moan at the govt to cover there losses so they can continue to drive empty buses around and not be inconvienced by the nasty economics of reality.

Civil service - get to retire earlier than the private sector worker, no particular reason except one rule for them and one for the rest of us. Thanks Labour!

Private sector pays for the public sector, but when there's not enough money what happens? Govt just borrows it and heaps it on the national debt - screw financial responsibility - that wont buy the votes of the public sector unions. Which has us in the very mess were in now. A public sector on avg paid more that 40% more than the private sector worker it leeches off of.

That's quite a rant and not one source listed that back up your 'facts'

purifol0

Deleted User wrote: »

be a good post if backed with any facts

accounts are public. your assertions are all incorrect.

rest is opinion, old, tired and many times refuted.

Haha yeah ok fine.

Sierra Oscar

purifol0 wrote: »

Haha yeah ok fine.

What's your point? No one is disputing wages are rising in the public sector. They are increasing in the private sector too.

Private sector wages increased by 3.5% in Q4 2019 as compared to 2.7% in the public sector. That trend has been well established throughout the economic recovery here in recent years.

Private sector workers see accelerated wage growth during the good times while public sector workers see lower rises but are protected during downturns.

That has been the way for a long, long time.

CSO - EARNINGS AND LABOUR COSTS

saabsaab

purifol0 wrote: »

Haha yeah ok fine.

Source?

Edgware

addaword wrote: »

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

Werent those public service jobs advertised and open to all?
Not like the solicitors office and bank jobs lined up for the thick son or daughter by Daddy

purifol0

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What's your point? No one is disputing wages are rising in the public sector. They are increasing in the private sector too.

Private sector wages increased by 3.5% in Q4 2019 as compared to 2.7% in the public sector. That trend has been well established throughout the economic recovery here in recent years.

Private sector workers see accelerated wage growth during the good times while public sector workers see lower rises but are protected during downturns.

That has been the way for a long, long time.

CSO - EARNINGS AND LABOUR COSTS

Thats funny I could have sworn everything I wrote had been debunked and was false and rebutted.

How are wages in the private sector rising if theyre all on the dole now eh? No job security is a fact of life out here. If the country is even deeper in debt (past 200B again lads) why should the private sector worker have to endure addtional taxes just so the public sector can remain at full pay? AND receive annual increments? AND get another pay hike at the end of this year?

Why is it ok for govt to heap debt onto us to pay for you? If they reduced your pay you wouldnt even dream of going back to the private sector. 82% of public sector workers stay there for life, its just that handy, secure and lucarative.

"If its do good in the public sector why dont more people join" - The cat is out of the bag and the pubsec increased its numbers massively over the last 5 years. Almost 400,000! All on full pay while tax take is nearly nil and the rest of us in the real world have bills and uncertainty.

Jim Root

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The public sector pay negotiations that are due to take place later in the year for 2021 - 2023 will obviously be shaped by current events, but I don't see any pay cuts on the horizon. The pay increases due later in the year will also go ahead as planned as it has already been budgeted for and the required productivity measures have already been delivered on by public sector workers.

The Government would be going against it's own pay deal if they renege on the pay rises that it negotiated and naturally the public sector unions wouldn't engage in future pay negotiations if that occurred. The last thing the Government wants right now is all out strikes in the public sector.

This is delusional. Any company I know is reneging on planned salary increases this year, even if they had been budgeted.

[Deleted User]

u seem tense

n97 mini

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What's your point? No one is disputing wages are rising in the public sector. They are increasing in the private sector too.

Private sector wages increased by 3.5% in Q4 2019 as compared to 2.7% in the public sector. That trend has been well established throughout the economic recovery here in recent years.

And the current trend? Public sector business as usual, private sector decimated.

noodler

Jim Root wrote: »

This is delusional. Any company I know is reneging on planned salary increases this year, even if they had been budgeted.

Yeah there is no announcement on the October increase but we didn't budget for 400m a week welfare bills this year so it'll surely be cancelled.

[Deleted User]

n97 mini wrote: »

And those doing so should be on normal salary. But you'd agree those that have no work should be temporarily put on the C19 payment?

How about we first of all identify who are these librarians doing no work? Where are they? Have they been reassigned by their local authority to other departments, or to the HSE for contact tracing? Do they actually exist anywhere beyond your own imagination?

noodler wrote: »

They has been pay increases every year since 2016. They included reductions in PRD /threshold changes as well as gross increases.

There have been no pay increases. There has been some restoration of previous cuts, though still a long way off, with the 5%-8% PRD applying across the board, and not even on the agenda for discussion about restoration.

addaword wrote: »

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

All public servants lost some pay. Many public servants on fixed term contracts lost all their pay.

The only private sector folks who lost their pensions were the ones were greedy on their appetite for risk and their investments tanked. Don't expect others to pick up their gambling losses.

[Deleted User]

Mad_maxx wrote: »

its better than what most receptionists or low level secretaries do in the private sector and they dont have a guarenteed pension

differences between public and private are widest at the lower end

You obviously know nothing of how the current pension scheme works. It's not the golden pension everyone thinks. I'll be lucky to get the state pension after 20 years in the CS.

J DEERE

LRNM wrote: »

Working for the ambulance service and earn 600 per week before tax for a 39 hour week. Anything after that has to be earned through overtime.

Honestly if I got a paycut I'd just pack it in. It's piss poor pay and conditions and we're treated like dirt by the HSE.

I don't know whats up with peoples obsessions with wanting to drag us down to the minimum wage levels of the unskilled private sector.

Funnily enough, all the private sectors including low paid places like supermarkets are getting bonuses and pay increases for working through the pandemic.

What do we get? A big fúck you that's what.

Ya know I've always had an issue with the term "unskilled". Every job no matter how menial requires a certain amount or level of skill to complete.

Also, you're getting exactly what you signed up for. You made a decision when you took on your position to be a frontline worker. As did guards, nurses, doctors etc. That means running towards the fire when others are running away from it. Supermarket workers didn't. I'm sure you were aware of the job requirements when you took it.

[Deleted User]

purifol0 wrote: »

Why is it ok for govt to heap debt onto us to pay for you? If they reduced your pay you wouldnt even dream of going back to the private sector. 82% of public sector workers stay there for life, its just that handy, secure and lucarative.

"If its do good in the public sector why dont more people join" - The cat is out of the bag and the pubsec increased its numbers massively over the last 5 years. Almost 400,000! All on full pay while tax take is nearly nil and the rest of us in the real world have bills and uncertainty.

Don't suppose you'd like to quote your sources for any of those 'facts', about the 82% staying for life or the tax take being nearly nil?

purifol0

Just in case anyone thought I was being hyperbolic when I said entire budgets for public services are going solely on pay and pensions, well consider how much Ireland takes in per year in tax revenue, and watch where it really goes...

[Deleted User]

The usual civil public service pay bashing threads but when a thread is opened about actual jobs advertised in the civil service you get posts like these saying who would be bothered

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108275169&postcount=5

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108275733&postcount=7

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108275982&postcount=8

You'd swear that the those in the civil and public service are exempt from tax the way most go on. There are still jobs being advertised in the public service at the moment, so going by the number of people who think that they have a great time I'd expect that they will be overwhelmed with applicants.

Might even go for one myself, getting pisses off working for the multinational that I'm with at the moment, but taking over a 30,000 pay cut is not something to take lightly.

[Deleted User]

n97 mini wrote: »

And the current trend? Public sector business as usual, private sector decimated.

Business as usual? Do you think that moving 30k staff to work from no-work-from -home policy to get-out-of-the-building-and-work-from-home over 2 or 3 weeks is 'business as usual'? You clearly have no idea about what's actually going. on.

noodler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How about we first of all identify who are these librarians doing no work? Where are they? Have they been reassigned by their local authority to other departments, or to the HSE for contact tracing? Do they actually exist anywhere beyond your own imagination?

There have been no pay increases. There has been some restoration of previous cuts, though still a long way off, with the 5%-8% PRD applying across the board, and not even on the agenda for discussion about restoration.

All public servants lost some pay. Many public servants on fixed term contracts lost all their pay.

The only private sector folks who lost their pensions were the ones were greedy on their appetite for risk and their investments tanked. Don't expect others to pick up their gambling losses.

Pay increases every year.

Increments too.

And a plethora of sector specific deals.

I don't know why colleagues in the service have this feeling of being "owed". There was alot taken off people during the last recession.

It is quite entitled, and a bit disrespectful to the taxpayer generally, to even deny the increase in pay over the last year which have contributed to a couple of billion euro increase in the PS pay bill

Geuze

noodler wrote: »

They has been pay increases every year since 2016. They included reductions in PRD /threshold changes as well as gross increases.

Here are some details of the past four pay deals, AFAIK

(1) Croke Park agreement - two pay cuts

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/89ddb8-croke-park-agreement/?referrer=/en/croke-park-agreement/

PDF file of agreement:

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6622/243d1eeba2634e08845131ffc96df7f0.pdf#page=1

(2) Haddington road: more hours to work, third pay cut for >65k

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/3b1739-haddington-road-agreement/?referrer=/haddington-road-agreement/

PDF:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6623/f5412f648cc74dccb9493859c9355051.pdf#page=1

FAQs:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/25399/bcfdf41436d444148d4c2dce99935fa3.pdf#page=1

Also 10% less for new entrants somewhere in (1) or (2)

(3) Lansdowne Road agreement - this was the first pay restoration

• PRD threshold increased from 15k to 28,750.

• A flat extra 1,000 pa for all workers

• HRA extra pay cuts for people on over 65k were reversed

(4) Current PSSA

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/432f22-public-service-stability-agreement-2018-2020/

PDF:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6618/394821552e784f17aa5407e8af32e410.pdf#page=1

The principal pay measures in the agreement are:
• 1 January 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 October 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 January 2019 annualised salaries up to €30,000 were increased by 1%
• 1 September 2019 annualised salaries increase by 1.75%
• 1 January 2020 annualised salaries up to €32,000 increase by 0.5%
• 1 October 2020 annualised salaries increase by 2%

[Deleted User]

purifol0 wrote: »

Just in case anyone thought I was being hyperbolic when I said entire budgets for public services are going solely on pay and pensions, well consider how much Ireland takes in per year in tax revenue, and watch where it really goes...

Interesting graph, though you seem to have forgotten a few things, like procurement and capital investment and debt repayments. Would you like have another shot at showing where the money goes?

It shouldn't really be a huge surprise though that lots of money goes on pay and pensions. In sectors like healthcare, education, Gardai - they tend to be fairly intensive on human resources, unless you've invented a robot there to wipe your arse when you're in ICU?

[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

(4) Current PSSA

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/432f22-public-service-stability-agreement-2018-2020/

PDF:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6618/394821552e784f17aa5407e8af32e410.pdf#page=1

The principal pay measures in the agreement are:
• 1 January 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 October 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 January 2019 annualised salaries up to €30,000 were increased by 1%
• 1 September 2019 annualised salaries increase by 1.75%
• 1 January 2020 annualised salaries up to €32,000 increase by 0.5%
• 1 October 2020 annualised salaries increase by 2%

It's good to get some facts out, but these aren't increases - these are restoration of previous cuts, but with no restoration of the PRD.