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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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smelly sock

As a public servant i would not hesistate in striking if pay cuts are imposed. Ministers have already declined and resfused to take a cut so fook that.

I also have bills to pay and kids to feed.

n97 mini

I don't think there will be pay cuts. But I do think any public sector workers who currently have no job (e.g. librarians) should be (temporarily) on the C19 payment.

smelly sock

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't think there will be pay cuts. But I do think any public sector workers who currently have no job (e.g. librarians) should be (temporarily) on the C19 payment.

Wow.

Contracts and employment law come to mind straight away.

thomasdylan

I think there'll have to be freezes on increments if not pay cuts.

Everyone in the public sector will be grouped in together. There won't be any protection of the frontline who have had to keep going to work. I hope that those earning under 35k or so would not be affected. A lot of the people who keep hospitals running like cleaners are outsourced and very poorly paid and probably deserve more of a rise than anyone.

I don't get complaints about public sector having extra hours added in the last recession. If you had extra hours added you weren't working 39 hours before or are a teacher getting Croke Park hours and probably still don't average 39 hours over the whole year.

smelly sock

Birneybau wrote: »

Yeah, you missed the point. You have said your daughter is a nurse, and fair play to her. The HSE is ridiculously top heavy salary-wise, it's a bloated fit for nothing bureaucratical organisation.

There should be more, better paid nurses and doctors, and less pencil pushers. Rid the HSE of most of the 'brain' trust and you'll have a more efficient entity, funding and work wise.

There is a hell of a lot of waste in frontline HSE services along with admin. It's across the board in that sense.

[Deleted User]

The backlash against the #frontlineheroes has begun.

If nurses get their pay reduced after the ****storm of COVID-19. It says a lot about the country

Spare a thought for the HCA's, cleaners etc. who never get any praise but are about to get shafted. I'd accept that my pay to been frozen in terms of benchmarking.

smelly sock

thomasdylan wrote: »

I think there'll have to be freezes on increments if not pay cuts.

Everyone in the public sector will be grouped in together. There won't be any protection of the frontline who have had to keep going to work. I hope that those earning under 35k or so would not be affected. A lot of the people who keep hospitals running like cleaners are outsourced and very poorly paid and probably deserve more of a rise than anyone.

I don't get complaints about public sector having extra hours added in the last recession. If you had extra hours added you weren't working 39 hours before or are a teacher getting Croke Park hours and probably still don't average 39 hours over the whole year.

You cant freeze increments or someones point on the salary scale. That would impact pension entitlements and perhaps once off gratuity payment.

LRNM

Working for the ambulance service and earn 600 per week before tax for a 39 hour week. Anything after that has to be earned through overtime.

Honestly if I got a paycut I'd just pack it in. It's piss poor pay and conditions and we're treated like dirt by the HSE.

I don't know whats up with peoples obsessions with wanting to drag us down to the minimum wage levels of the unskilled private sector.

Funnily enough, all the private sectors including low paid places like supermarkets are getting bonuses and pay increases for working through the pandemic.

What do we get? A big fúck you that's what.

noodler

smelly sock wrote: »

As a public servant i would not hesistate in striking if pay cuts are imposed. Ministers have already declined and resfused to take a cut so fook that.

I also have bills to pay and kids to feed.

You have to bear in mind, one Minister, who has refused the last 4/5 annual increases offered to him, said he isn't looking at pay cuts at this time.

Ministers and TDs have their pay linked to that of PO in the Civil Service - anything you have wve read about a Minister/TD getting a pay rise has actually simply been part of the wider PS.

If you had denied yourself the annual pay increases due over the 2016-2019 period, and you have an incredibly important and downright busy job, would you be volunteering yourself for a paycut willy nilly before the whole issue has even been properly discussed?

thomasdylan

smelly sock wrote: »

You cant freeze increments or someones point on the salary scale. That would impact pension entitlements and perhaps once off gratuity payment.

I don't think those are reasons increments can't be frozen. Plenty of the private sector have taken large cuts in the last few weeks. How can it happen there but smaller ones can't happen in the public sector?

I'm a public sector worker, I wouldn't have issue if my point on the salary scale was frozen or if there was a bit of a cut so long as lower paid PS workers were protected

[Deleted User]

There won't be direct pay cuts, but you wonder if it was a solo run by the former public servant.

VillageIdiot71

Deleted User wrote: »

The backlash against the #frontlineheroes has begun.

If nurses get their pay reduced after the ****storm of COVID-19. It says a lot about the country

Spare a thought for the HCA's, cleaners etc. who never get any praise but are about to get shafted. I'd accept that my pay to been frozen in terms of benchmarking.

I think, absolutely, we should notice the low paid workers who don't get recognition for carrying on in difficult conditions. That's why I pointed to care assistants in nursing homes and supermarket workers; low paid, mostly private sector, workers directly facing risky situations.

Nothing wrong with nurses, but no one should be put on a pedestal as no one can survive the scrutiny. I frankly didn't get the hagiography of medical staff, when the hospitals were mostly empty and a quarter of the population was out of a job to protect the hospitals from being overrun.

So the family that can't pay its mortgage is meant to kiss the ass of the doctor who freely admits that he hasn't seen a cancer patient for a month?

Many lessons from this crisis. One is don't accept undeserved praise.

RonanG86

I am expecting the government to attempt to cut public sector pay. Unless they manage to hammer out something like a rationalisation of all COVID related debt into EU level borrowing to repaid on the never-never, that is. But that's a whole big rabbit hole to go down, which I'm sure has been covered in detail on several other threads around here.

They'll be able to do a bit by inducing / incentivising a bit of retirement and putting a moratorium on hiring replacements, but probably not enough.

The issue is that for it to be politically viable, they cannot hit frontline staff, especially nurses, care workers etc.. But if they only hit "pen-pushers", or at least make it look like that's all they're doing, they might get it to wash with the public at large and get to paint FORSA etc. as greedy so and sos not willing to pull on the green jersey (never mind that they only just took it off after the last recession).

I'm sure the narrative of 'lucky to retain their jobs' will start soon.

How feasible it is to divvy up the public sector like that, I'm actually not sure.

[Deleted User]

Summer2020 wrote: »

The pay increase due in October is tied to a productivity deal , a lot of which has already been implemented in the PS. So if it doesn’t go ahead then the govt have broken their side of the deal, expect a lot of the productivity improvements to be rolled back.

When have we ever rolled anything back when the government break their side? Sure, they are foverer breaking their side then demanding more initiatives to revisit.

I cant see cuts, they would want cuts I have no doubt and there will be those that will call for them but the public sector have continued to chug along throughout this situation. In many cases theres been more work, plenty of flexibility and a 'take it on the chin and soldier on' attitude.

Of course thats been the attitude accross a lot of areas in the private sector too to be fair.

noodler

PS cuts would bring in something like 400m/500m gross per year but obviously you only actually save about 50/60% of that with tax/USC/prsi etc.

It would only be a small part of adjustments needed.

It's fine if we think a 15-20bn deficit will be a one off this year with natural growth etc bring us to something smaller in 2021.

But you look at the unemployment payments, lost tax, major spending commitment on PPE/Testing and you wonder how much of this will really persist into 2021.

It might be 2022 before we can balance the books again.

[Deleted User]

smelly sock wrote: »

You cant freeze increments or someones point on the salary scale. That would impact pension entitlements and perhaps once off gratuity payment.

course they can. its been done multiple times since 2007.

[Deleted User]

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I think, absolutely, we should notice the low paid workers who don't get recognition for carrying on in difficult conditions. That's why I pointed to care assistants in nursing homes and supermarket workers; low paid, mostly private sector, workers directly facing risky situations.

Nothing wrong with nurses, but no one should be put on a pedestal as no one can survive the scrutiny. I frankly didn't get the hagiography of medical staff, when the hospitals were mostly empty and a quarter of the population was out of a job to protect the hospitals from being overrun.

So the family that can't pay its mortgage is meant to kiss the ass of the doctor who freely admits that he hasn't seen a cancer patient for a month?

Many lessons from this crisis. One is don't accept undeserved praise.

when da fck were they almost empty? Are you having a laugh?

That doctor may be down in typical work this month but hes doing an important job day in and day out so yes, he deserves respect.

The doctors that treated my daughter since she was born, the nurses that cared for her, cheered her up and stood in when myself and her mother needed an hours sleep, the cleaners and support staff who always made the effort to have a chat with her when they came around?

Oh and lets not forget the staff that cared for my grandparents in their final days. The carehome staff that gave my grandfather nothing but care and love like he was their own for his final few years?

Your damn right they have my respect and a lot more so save your private V public nonsense.

mlem123

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think those are reasons increments can't be frozen. Plenty of the private sector have taken large cuts in the last few weeks. How can it happen there but smaller ones can't happen in the public sector?

I'm a public sector worker, I wouldn't have issue if my point on the salary scale was frozen or if there was a bit of a cut so long as lower paid PS workers were protected

The problem is that the lower paid PS won't be protected. I'm on about €28k a year at the moment as I've just started and know that those who have the most influence in the unions etc are people who've been here a long time or retired. They'll look after themselves/their pension as they did before.

VillageIdiot71

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

when da fck were they almost empty? Are you having a laugh?

You're obviously not keeping up with current events. Hospital attendances collapsed for the last couple of months.

Oh, and don't shroud wave your family in front of me, you creep.

pew

Bicyclette wrote: »

There are a lot of public sector employees currently doing a 37.5 hour week at the moment for roughly €150 more than the Covid payment - e.g. 500 pw or less vs €350 pw. By the time you take off deductions, there isn't a significant difference. Its €4 per hour more gross.

These people are working in places such as Social Welfare and Revenue processing payments, doing contact tracing, and other things that are keeping this country going.

Take for example someone on the bottom of the Clerical Officer Scale. They earn €461 per week gross. Just €111 more than the Covid Payment. Over 37.5 hours, that works out at €2.97 per hour more. GROSS. How could you possibly cut those wages?

There is a perception that the public service are very well paid. The Post 2011 entrants are not.
Link to the actual pay rates here: https://www.forsa.ie/about-forsa/divisions/civil-service/civil-service-pay-scales/

Remember most people in the public service are at Clerical Officer Grade.

I'm coming up to three years in the public service and still working in the office. I'm a Clerical Officer.

After tax when starting off you roughly earn 390 a week net. That's 40 quid more than the covid payment. I'm on my second increment and it's still barely 420 after deductions. Its already difficult trying to pay rent and Bill's and save for a mortgage without another pay cut or salary freeze.

There are people who have this idea that the Public and Civil service are all on big money with gold plated pensions who sit around and do sweet f all. Its definitely not the case. We are hard workers who try do our best for our clients and there are many who have been redeployed to help out with this crisis to an area they are not familiar with as well as those who and those departments who are directly affected by the Covid crisis whose work load have increased 10 fold but yet it's not possible to have extra staff in due to social distancing policies in place so they have an increased work load and working in smaller numbers to get it done.

tayto lover

Cut people’s wages and you will help shrink the economy and cause job loses.
Give them a rise and they will spend which will help drive the economy and sustain employment.

combat14

Mad_maxx wrote: »

well thats good to know ( that they werent - arent earning much ) , the vast majority of the clerical officers ive dealt with down the years , i wouldnt trust them to run to the shops to get me a newspaper , they were that incompetent

well pay them even less and what kind of incompetence will you get?
pay peanuts -》 get monkeys

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

when da fck were they almost empty? Are you having a laugh?

That doctor may be down in typical work this month but hes doing an important job day in and day out so yes, he deserves respect.

The doctors that treated my daughter since she was born, the nurses that cared for her, cheered her up and stood in when myself and her mother needed an hours sleep, the cleaners and support staff who always made the effort to have a chat with her when they came around?

Oh and lets not forget the staff that cared for my grandparents in their final days. The carehome staff that gave my grandfather nothing but care and love like he was their own for his final few years?

Your damn right they have my respect and a lot more so save your private V public nonsense.

Empty yes.

Outside of covid wards and ICU.

It's fairly public information.

talla10

Public Restrictions haven't been eased yet, the Covid-19 pandemic is far from over and the Public V Private sector argument has already started.

How very Irish

combat14

noodler wrote: »

PS cuts would bring in something like 400m/500m gross per year but obviously you only actually save about 50/60% of that with tax/USC/prsi etc.

It would only be a small part of adjustments needed.

It's fine if we think a 15-20bn deficit will be a one off this year with natural growth etc bring us to something smaller in 2021.

But you look at the unemployment payments, lost tax, major spending commitment on PPE/Testing and you wonder how much of this will really persist into 2021.

It might be 2022 before we can balance the books again.

start cutting public sector pay and there will be even bigger knock on effects from less spending in the overall economy and potentially more job losses as a result.

Increased uncertainty and enhanced risk of strikes in some sectors, reduced public sector productivity and morale to a drop in house prices as banks lend less to those with reliable jobs on now reduced wages.

fly_agaric

RonanG86 wrote: »

I am expecting the government to attempt to cut public sector pay.

If it is the Greens and some sort of "Fianna Gael" cease-fire arrangement I'll be interested in how it goes compared to when they had Labour as a mudguard the last time the public sector was on the chopping block. Almost a controlled experiment vs Finanical crisis/crash (especially if no more rescue money/parachute for the economy is forthcoming from the stronger economies in Europe via ECB etc).

tastyt

I admire a lot of our public service, especially front line. But when you take a public job you have to understand that the government , that is , the country is your employer.

When your employer is broke in either public or private employment you cannot expect pay rises increments etc. And if pay cuts happen it’s the small price public servants pay for the great job security and pension they have which a private worker simply doesn’t. Especially in these tough times it is a huge advantage to be a public servant considering the amount of people who lose there job through no fault of their own

It’s not rocket science, I don’t know how people can’t get this .

addaword

n97 mini wrote: »

I do think any public sector workers who currently have no job (e.g. librarians) should be (temporarily) on the C19 payment.

I agree. Are there not some librarians now on 75,000 a year doing s.f.a.?

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

Empty yes.

Outside of covid wards and ICU.

It's fairly public information.

Me hole. People are still sick and dying.

The only difference is that people aren't clogging the system with nonsense anymore so they don't need to is trolleys.

Is that your definition of 'empty'?

Birneybau

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

You're obviously not keeping up with current events. Hospital attendances collapsed for the last couple of months.

Oh, and don't shroud wave your family in front of me, you creep.

Don't think you have the authority to call others a creep. Jeez.