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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That is such a heap of bollocks. "If your teacher gives you an accurate mark then you'll be grand". Who are the DES to determine if it is accurate. The teacher can't even say that for sure.

That was my reading of it also. What a ridiculous situation.

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Last 3 years

I assume school management will have to provide the subject breakdown for last three years to each teacher
We do it every year but they go back into office never to be seen again

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

I assume school management will have to provide the subject breakdown for last three years to each teacher
We do it every year but they go back into office never to be seen again

Presume so. I'm checking vsware for my own gangs the last few years.

Read all docs now. Tired of Friday announcements that f- up the weekend.

markodaly

Consuelano wrote: »

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy.

Decent enough post but it seems to me that the government got railroaded into this plan.
Almost every political party was calling out for the LC to be canceled. We have Socialist Mick Barry claiming victory and created a virtual rally in honour of 'his work' for crying out load.

Did he reach out to any of the Unions or Teachers on this?
Did ANY political party reach out to the Unions or Teachers on this?

Simply put, there was too big a target on the Government backs over this, so they relented.
Saying that though, they were out on their own, as I saw no one really supporting them or their efforts to get an LC over the line. So its a bit late now to be crying about this decision when there was time for others to stand up and take some of the heat.

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not in the document, so I asked my principal. He just got back to me and said no, but would check with the powers that be to confirm.

It will make a real difference to those who decided to drop to OL after their mocks, which is normal enough. If they are not allowed to change they will fail HL, but would have passed OL.

Whatever it says now, I think they will have to allow this tbh, otherwise it could easily be the basis for a legal challenge.

Very easy to demonstrate to a court that there is a history of a significant number of students dropping level between March and June, even on the day. And to close off that option is unfair.

Will be a mess either way: if they drop, you have no actual evidence for their grade at OL, so it will be at best a "best guess".

I think they will be able to implement a blanket ban on changing level up all right. There are probably a few each year, but nothing like enough to impress a court that it is normal / a right to be conserved.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

I am really beginning to wonder did whoever made these decisions consult the SEC at all.

I'm beginning to think the people around the table with Joe were reps from the ISSU, and the main media outlets in the country.

CrabRevolution

markodaly wrote: »

Decent enough post but it seems to me that the government got railroaded into this plan.
Almost every political party was calling out for the LC to be canceled. We have Socialist Mick Barry claiming victory and created a virtual rally in honour of 'his work' for crying out load.

Did he reach out to any of the Unions or Teachers on this?
Did ANY political party reach out to the Unions or Teachers on this?

Simply put, there was too big a target on the Government backs over this, so they relented.
Saying that though, they were out on their own, as I saw no one really supporting them or their efforts to get an LC over the line. So its a bit late now to be crying about this decision when there was time for others to stand up and take some of the heat.

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

man_no_plan

spurious wrote: »

It is also a system that those engaging in are well aware of from the start, not something that has been landed in on tens of thousands of candidates because of a silly, reactionary, unthought out protest online.

I agree. These predictions would normally be followed by an exam. That's the failsafe in it.

Theres nothing of the kind here at all.

My point is that pointing to the UK doesn't automatically make this a good idea.

man_no_plan

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Last 3 years

Is there a source for that?

Purefrank128

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is there a source for that?

It's right there in the description of the plan on gov.ie

km79

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/calls-for-legislation-to-protect-teachers-from-parent-pressure-over-leaving-cert-998563.html

I can not see the process being finished by may 29th

ethical

Is the teacher protected in the event of an appeal?

The Dept document would seem to suggest so:

19. Can I appeal the Calculated Grades?
Yes. Due to the nature of the model, the professional judgment of the teacher or the school will not form part of the appeals process.

Students unhappy with the calculated grade they receive will have access to a three-stage appeals process.

Stage 1: Checks will be undertaken to ensure that the process was completed correctly by the school and that the intended information was recorded correctly by the school and that the information was transferred correctly into the data collection system. There will also be a review to ensure that the review that the data was correctly received and processed in the calculated grade model.

Stage 2: Students can then seek a review by Independent Appeal Scrutineers.

Stage 3: Following this review, there will also be an opportunity to sit the written examinations later in the year when it is safe and practicable to do so.

In addition, there will be oversight by an independent international expert unconnected with the design of the calculated grades model to provide overall validation on the model, including the operation of the appeals system.

man_no_plan

Purefrank128 wrote: »

It's right there in the description of the plan on gov.ie

Thanks. I thought I had read it carefully enough yesterday.

acequion

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

A brilliant,common sense post and you gave me a laugh.:pac:

This wrapping kids up in cotton wool is utterly crazy. And they should have been allowed to learn the lesson during this unprecedented global crisis that shyt can really happen. That when it rains it really pours and that having anxiety levels through the roof at such times because there is no calming certainty, is perfectly fine and perfectly normal.

But the likes of Leo will pander to populist bull****, such as over protection of the young, because there's votes in it for him down the line.

[Deleted User]

My lad has been working hard in preparation for the exams.

Now he is absolutely deflated.

For the last 8 weeks during lockdown he has been studying hard and doing school work only to find its all a waste of time.

I worry more now about his and other childrens mental health, especially as predictive results could let so many of them down.

km79

Sigh

how did we all cope years ago.
Did we not have mental health? Might have been as well off

[Deleted User]

km79 wrote: »

Sigh

how did we all cope years ago.
Did we not have mental health? Might have been as well off

It was still there, social media and the internet has allowed us to see that it is a real problem among society.

km79

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was still there, social media and the internet has allowed us to see that it is a real problem among society.

“Student voice “ across various Social media platforms and the internet told us for the past month that the Leaving cert must be cancelled to protect students mental health
Minister McHugh listened to that and cited it as a major factor in the cancellation

Now that the reality is hitting home we will see the other side

TheDriver

Deleted User wrote: »

My lad has been working hard in preparation for the exams.

Now he is absolutely deflated.

For the last 8 weeks during lockdown he has been studying hard and doing school work only to find its all a waste of time.

I worry more now about his and other childrens mental health, especially as predictive results could let so many of them down.

And this is the case for so many. Which leads us to the fact in the media over the last number of weeks, who kept saying everyone wanted it cancelled? Anyone involved in education can see this will not lead to less stress except for the group of students who don't use CAO and will go on to their chosen pathway. The small few at top end too. But everyone else who work hard for the LC will be stressed. In my experience nearly everyone does better in the LC than all the class and house exams but we can only give them what they deserve based on those tests.

TheDriver

km79 wrote: »

Minister McHugh listened to that and cited it as a major factor in the cancellation

Now that the reality is hitting home we will see the other side

In fairness to Joe, he had no choice and made it obvious that he didn't agree with it. Naturally all the campaigners are quickly washing their hands of it.
I wonder how many house parties took place last night?

rainbowtrout

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

Joe McHugh could have just come out and said, 'if the media could just back the fcuk off for three more weeks, we will have a timetable and a clearer idea if the national situation is improving'

I'm sure he would have had a spin doctor to put it a little more eloquently. I don't have much sympathy for them, they caved to populism in favour of a system that doesn't work and he said as much himself only a month ago.

Last year for the first time the SEC brought in exams for students who had a bereavement in the family during the main exams in June. Those exams were run in July (don't know a whole lot else about them to be honest other than those students were facilitated).

It could have been possible to space out the LC by running two sets of exams and halving the numbers in each centre, by using both available papers for each subject. E.g. one half the school sit English Paper 1 in the morning and the other half sit the second version of it in the afternoon. Bell curves etc could still be applied with such a large cohort. And still run one exam per day as was originally proposed when exams were moved to July 29th. For a lot of the minority subjects this wouldn't be necessary, just the large ones.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

In fairness to Joe, he had no choice and made it obvious that he didn't agree with it. Naturally all the campaigners are quickly washing their hands of it.
I wonder how many house parties took place last night?

Yeah I have sympathy with him and with the previous posters child and predicament
I wasn’t criticizing them

My bug bear is that “mental health “ and “wellbeing “ is now being used as an excuse for everything .
I strongly believe a lot of the campaigners were using it to **** their own agendas
It can’t be argued against ...........
So it suited the people who are confident they will get top grades as they may have done well in the mocks
It might even **** those who were doing nothing and are happy not to have to sit the exams

It did not suit the majority of students imo who were working away and would have improved on their grades by the time the LC took place ( Sadly I don’t think it was going to be possible but that’s another story )
I can see why they are now upset

At the time of the survey the media and the ISSU(whomever they are ) were throwing around figures of 70% of students wanting cancellation etc
I pointed out at the time it was a completely unscientific survey and this was perhaps not representative of the majority

I do not like the idea of predicted grades one bit. But we will have to do them. I just hope it’s tightened up a bit

What I really resent is the constant using of “mental health” and “student wellbeing “ as a biker proof ploy by those pushing agendas
The ISSU (again no idea where they have come from ) have been far too much credence and far too much publicity and now have gone into hiding it seems

Sometimes adults have to make decisions for children . They do this through experience and with the students best interests at heart . I think there has been far too much of a “student voice “ in this whole process
And the “student voice “ was from a vocal minority who stood to gain most from predicted grades

Rant over

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

the ISSU(whomever they are ) were throwing around figures of 70% of students wanting cancellation etc

The Irish Secondary Students Union

[Deleted User]

km79 wrote: »

“Student voice “ across various Social media platforms and the internet told us for the past month that the Leaving cert must be cancelled to protect students mental health
Minister McHugh listened to that and cited it as a major factor in the cancellation

Now that the reality is hitting home we will see the other side

+1, I was just thinking the same thing.

Now wait til you see the social media stink at results time. Probably even from the same folks.

I am feeling very sorry for teachers in the middle of this.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The Irish Secondary Students Union

I know who they are now. I was not aware of who they were before. I am not aware of the inner workings of how they elect their reps etc. How affiliation works etc
And why they had so much influence in this process

km79

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

+1, I was just thinking the same thing.

Now wait til you see the social media stink at results time. Probably even from the same folks.

I am feeling very sorry for teachers in the middle of this.

Wait until the campaign for next years Leaving Cert cohort begins

spurious

km79 wrote: »

I know who they are now. I was not aware of who they were before. I am not aware of the inner workings of how they elect their reps etc. How affiliation works etc
And why they had so much influence in this process

Squeaky wheels.

Millionaire only not

acequion wrote: »

A brilliant,common sense post and you gave me a laugh.:pac:

This wrapping kids up in cotton wool is utterly crazy. And they should have been allowed to learn the lesson during this unprecedented global crisis that shyt can really happen. That when it rains it really pours and that having anxiety levels through the roof at such times because there is no calming certainty, is perfectly fine and perfectly normal.

But the likes of Leo will pander to populist bull****, such as over protection of the young, because there's votes in it for him down the line.

That may be all fine but there is a major difference- is it on or off ,is it the 29th July , will I have to ware a mask , 201 emails a day plus numerous instagram advertising this tuition that tuition.
Full 3 months plus the 3 months there already out studying in isolation .
People can say what they like but other leaving certs had tuition and a definite time table to work to.
Through in late for college , late for 5th years at least this way there’s time . And if it’s only one child that was stopped from doing something silly it’s worth it .

CrabRevolution

Deleted User wrote: »

It was still there, social media and the internet has allowed us to see that it is a real problem among society.

I did my leaving cert long after the internet and social media became ubiquitous, and at the time we had people saying the same thing. "Pressure is is too much" "Kids face new challenges we didn't" "Mental health is becoming more open" etc.

But I recall the response to this was various supports, websites, helplines etc. to help you cope with the pressure. It was still explicit that unless you had some disaster befall you, you still did the exam. A friend's brother with a chronic disease did some of his LC exams from a hospital bed.

The very existence of a set of revision books titled "Less Stress, more Success" is evidence that stress is a normal part of the LC and the best way to counter it is to work hard and prepare as best you can. It doesn't say "No stress", because that's impossible.

At some stage along the way it was decided that actually the best way to counter stress is to just make the whole process easier, easier syllibus, more easily cheatable CA, more exemptions etc. and tell people their achievements are worth the same. As well as telling young people that stress is bad and nothing is ever their fault.

This disaster is a culmination of this line of thinking, where students feeling pressure is reason enough to cancel the exams.

acequion wrote: »

But the likes of Leo will pander to populist bull****, such as over protection of the young, because there's votes in it for him down the line.

Again, loathe to defend them, but Leo and FG were the last ones who wanted this. It was Byrne of FF and PBP etc.that decided to spearhead the "Cancel the LC" idea, citing students feeling stress.

randylonghorn

Deleted User wrote: »

My lad has been working hard in preparation for the exams.

Now he is absolutely deflated.

Yep, been hearing that so much over the last few days.

And from others (let's call them the middle-of-the-road group) who are kinda relieved they aren't facing the exam, but are worrying now about predictive grades.

Problem is, while he was actually doing some work, the ISSU etc. who weren't were hogging the airways and not really representing either of those groups.

km79 wrote: »

And why they had so much influence in this process

They had loud voices, and were the darling of the media looking for something to fill their papers / airspace.