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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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rainbowtrout

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

Joe McHugh could have just come out and said, 'if the media could just back the fcuk off for three more weeks, we will have a timetable and a clearer idea if the national situation is improving'

I'm sure he would have had a spin doctor to put it a little more eloquently. I don't have much sympathy for them, they caved to populism in favour of a system that doesn't work and he said as much himself only a month ago.

Last year for the first time the SEC brought in exams for students who had a bereavement in the family during the main exams in June. Those exams were run in July (don't know a whole lot else about them to be honest other than those students were facilitated).

It could have been possible to space out the LC by running two sets of exams and halving the numbers in each centre, by using both available papers for each subject. E.g. one half the school sit English Paper 1 in the morning and the other half sit the second version of it in the afternoon. Bell curves etc could still be applied with such a large cohort. And still run one exam per day as was originally proposed when exams were moved to July 29th. For a lot of the minority subjects this wouldn't be necessary, just the large ones.

TheDriver

km79 wrote: »

Minister McHugh listened to that and cited it as a major factor in the cancellation

Now that the reality is hitting home we will see the other side

In fairness to Joe, he had no choice and made it obvious that he didn't agree with it. Naturally all the campaigners are quickly washing their hands of it.
I wonder how many house parties took place last night?

TheDriver

Deleted User wrote: »

My lad has been working hard in preparation for the exams.

Now he is absolutely deflated.

For the last 8 weeks during lockdown he has been studying hard and doing school work only to find its all a waste of time.

I worry more now about his and other childrens mental health, especially as predictive results could let so many of them down.

And this is the case for so many. Which leads us to the fact in the media over the last number of weeks, who kept saying everyone wanted it cancelled? Anyone involved in education can see this will not lead to less stress except for the group of students who don't use CAO and will go on to their chosen pathway. The small few at top end too. But everyone else who work hard for the LC will be stressed. In my experience nearly everyone does better in the LC than all the class and house exams but we can only give them what they deserve based on those tests.

km79

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was still there, social media and the internet has allowed us to see that it is a real problem among society.

“Student voice “ across various Social media platforms and the internet told us for the past month that the Leaving cert must be cancelled to protect students mental health
Minister McHugh listened to that and cited it as a major factor in the cancellation

Now that the reality is hitting home we will see the other side

[Deleted User]

km79 wrote: »

Sigh

how did we all cope years ago.
Did we not have mental health? Might have been as well off

It was still there, social media and the internet has allowed us to see that it is a real problem among society.

km79

Sigh

how did we all cope years ago.
Did we not have mental health? Might have been as well off

[Deleted User]

My lad has been working hard in preparation for the exams.

Now he is absolutely deflated.

For the last 8 weeks during lockdown he has been studying hard and doing school work only to find its all a waste of time.

I worry more now about his and other childrens mental health, especially as predictive results could let so many of them down.

acequion

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

A brilliant,common sense post and you gave me a laugh.:pac:

This wrapping kids up in cotton wool is utterly crazy. And they should have been allowed to learn the lesson during this unprecedented global crisis that shyt can really happen. That when it rains it really pours and that having anxiety levels through the roof at such times because there is no calming certainty, is perfectly fine and perfectly normal.

But the likes of Leo will pander to populist bull****, such as over protection of the young, because there's votes in it for him down the line.

man_no_plan

Purefrank128 wrote: »

It's right there in the description of the plan on gov.ie

Thanks. I thought I had read it carefully enough yesterday.

ethical

Is the teacher protected in the event of an appeal?

The Dept document would seem to suggest so:

19. Can I appeal the Calculated Grades?
Yes. Due to the nature of the model, the professional judgment of the teacher or the school will not form part of the appeals process.

Students unhappy with the calculated grade they receive will have access to a three-stage appeals process.

Stage 1: Checks will be undertaken to ensure that the process was completed correctly by the school and that the intended information was recorded correctly by the school and that the information was transferred correctly into the data collection system. There will also be a review to ensure that the review that the data was correctly received and processed in the calculated grade model.

Stage 2: Students can then seek a review by Independent Appeal Scrutineers.

Stage 3: Following this review, there will also be an opportunity to sit the written examinations later in the year when it is safe and practicable to do so.

In addition, there will be oversight by an independent international expert unconnected with the design of the calculated grades model to provide overall validation on the model, including the operation of the appeals system.

km79

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/calls-for-legislation-to-protect-teachers-from-parent-pressure-over-leaving-cert-998563.html

I can not see the process being finished by may 29th

Purefrank128

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is there a source for that?

It's right there in the description of the plan on gov.ie

man_no_plan

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Last 3 years

Is there a source for that?

man_no_plan

spurious wrote: »

It is also a system that those engaging in are well aware of from the start, not something that has been landed in on tens of thousands of candidates because of a silly, reactionary, unthought out protest online.

I agree. These predictions would normally be followed by an exam. That's the failsafe in it.

Theres nothing of the kind here at all.

My point is that pointing to the UK doesn't automatically make this a good idea.

CrabRevolution

markodaly wrote: »

Decent enough post but it seems to me that the government got railroaded into this plan.
Almost every political party was calling out for the LC to be canceled. We have Socialist Mick Barry claiming victory and created a virtual rally in honour of 'his work' for crying out load.

Did he reach out to any of the Unions or Teachers on this?
Did ANY political party reach out to the Unions or Teachers on this?

Simply put, there was too big a target on the Government backs over this, so they relented.
Saying that though, they were out on their own, as I saw no one really supporting them or their efforts to get an LC over the line. So its a bit late now to be crying about this decision when there was time for others to stand up and take some of the heat.

I'm not a teacher and don't have answers to this, but have a bit of sympathy with the government.

Cancelling the LC was a major bandwagon jumped onto by the media and opposition politicians. According to them, there'd be nobody left to sit the exams in July anyway because every student in the country will have committed suicide.

It ties in again with thoughts I posted earlier, that we've convinced young people that feeling under pressure is inherently a bad thing, and if you're ever expected to do anything, the correct solution is to run away from the challenge but demand the rewards anyway.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

I am really beginning to wonder did whoever made these decisions consult the SEC at all.

I'm beginning to think the people around the table with Joe were reps from the ISSU, and the main media outlets in the country.

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not in the document, so I asked my principal. He just got back to me and said no, but would check with the powers that be to confirm.

It will make a real difference to those who decided to drop to OL after their mocks, which is normal enough. If they are not allowed to change they will fail HL, but would have passed OL.

Whatever it says now, I think they will have to allow this tbh, otherwise it could easily be the basis for a legal challenge.

Very easy to demonstrate to a court that there is a history of a significant number of students dropping level between March and June, even on the day. And to close off that option is unfair.

Will be a mess either way: if they drop, you have no actual evidence for their grade at OL, so it will be at best a "best guess".

I think they will be able to implement a blanket ban on changing level up all right. There are probably a few each year, but nothing like enough to impress a court that it is normal / a right to be conserved.

markodaly

Consuelano wrote: »

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy.

Decent enough post but it seems to me that the government got railroaded into this plan.
Almost every political party was calling out for the LC to be canceled. We have Socialist Mick Barry claiming victory and created a virtual rally in honour of 'his work' for crying out load.

Did he reach out to any of the Unions or Teachers on this?
Did ANY political party reach out to the Unions or Teachers on this?

Simply put, there was too big a target on the Government backs over this, so they relented.
Saying that though, they were out on their own, as I saw no one really supporting them or their efforts to get an LC over the line. So its a bit late now to be crying about this decision when there was time for others to stand up and take some of the heat.

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

I assume school management will have to provide the subject breakdown for last three years to each teacher
We do it every year but they go back into office never to be seen again

Presume so. I'm checking vsware for my own gangs the last few years.

Read all docs now. Tired of Friday announcements that f- up the weekend.

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Last 3 years

I assume school management will have to provide the subject breakdown for last three years to each teacher
We do it every year but they go back into office never to be seen again

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That is such a heap of bollocks. "If your teacher gives you an accurate mark then you'll be grand". Who are the DES to determine if it is accurate. The teacher can't even say that for sure.

That was my reading of it also. What a ridiculous situation.

km79

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I believe the teachers will do a good job , but it is time to reform ths exam and stop having stressed out students - 40/50% from continuous assessment and rest from exam .
The work rate would be more consistent from students and the ones that don’t work there is a history to show it . This won’t be last outbreak of a deadly virus .

If anything I think the current situation holds the l c up I a better light
Maybe it is not the dinosaur some thought it was

Nobody can outside influence SEC terminal exams ......

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

The Dept have a list of FAQ on their website now: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d8920c-leaving-cert-2020/?referrer=/leavingcertificate/

Among my many concerns is the response to the following:

Q15. Does national standardisation mean that if I attend a school where students traditionally have higher performance levels, my mark is likely to be moved up by the Department? And if I attend a school where performance tends to be lower, my mark may be moved down?

Please see attached screenshot.... maybe I'm oversensitive but that reads as selling teachers out to me anyway, in otherwords if you are not treated fairly that's your teacher's fault.

That is such a heap of bollocks. "If your teacher gives you an accurate mark then you'll be grand". Who are the DES to determine if it is accurate. The teacher can't even say that for sure.

History Queen

The Dept have a list of FAQ on their website now: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/d8920c-leaving-cert-2020/?referrer=/leavingcertificate/

Among my many concerns is the response to the following:

Q16. Does national standardisation mean that if I attend a school where students traditionally have higher performance levels, my mark is likely to be moved up by the Department? And if I attend a school where performance tends to be lower, my mark may be moved down?

Please see attached screenshot.... maybe I'm oversensitive but that reads as selling teachers out to me anyway, in otherwords if you are not treated fairly that's your teacher's fault.

randylonghorn

Millionaire only not wrote: »

The flip side of that is if it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for us .

So, you starting a campaign for Irexit, then?

The reality is that despite a well-established system for doing predictive grading (which we don't have) and years of experience (which we don't have), a recent academic report showed a 16% accuracy rate between predicted grades and actual grades achieved in end-of-year exams in the UK.

So is it really good enough for either country?

spurious

I am really beginning to wonder did whoever made these decisions consult the SEC at all.

jimmytwotimes 2013

spurious wrote: »

Still daft.
Who thinks these things up?

No idea, the current plan is vague at best

spurious

spurious wrote: »

The bell curve is not applied on a per school basis. Is it being proposed that a school's results would mirror last year's? That really is daft.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Last 3 years

Still daft.
Who thinks these things up?

spurious

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I believe the teachers will do a good job , but it is time to reform ths exam and stop having stressed out students - 40/50% from continuous assessment and rest from exam .
The work rate would be more consistent from students and the ones that don’t work there is a history to show it . This won’t be last outbreak of a deadly virus .

This already exists in the LCA, so it's not like there isn't a body of expertise for it.

jimmytwotimes 2013

spurious wrote: »

The bell curve is not applied on a per school basis. Is it being proposed that a school's results would mirror last year's? That really is daft.

Last 3 years