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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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Marlow

xckjoo wrote: »

Does anyone know of something that'll do this?

Marlow wrote: »

https://www.velbus.eu/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCdLmLPhHFU

If you have cabling in place or can put it in place, Velbus should be able to do it. Check out the video above.

It basically replaces the boiler controller and lets you add any amount of zones to it including the immersion.

Their glass-panel is the temperature probe in the zone, but also the control element, where you set the temperature etc.

To control the immersion, they have a module called VMB4AN, that will take up to 4 temperature probes. One that should be compatible with the VMB4AN (to use on the immersion) would be something like this: https://www.omniinstruments.co.uk/temperature-and-humidity/surface-mount-and-pipe-mount-temperature-sensors/tt-351-strap-on-temperature-sensor.html

That's the system I'm currently looking at to replace my 1ch boiler controller, 4 zones that are wired god knows how in behind it without properly being able to call for heat and no heat control on the immersion at all.

The guys in the UK selling the system are fairly knowledgable and also vested in OpenHAB. So they would able to give you advise.

/M

championc

xckjoo wrote: »

I got in touch to Tado to see if their kit could do what I wanted and it would only be able to control one of the interfaces; either the boiler or the immersion. I was hoping to be able to control both but maybe that device doesn't exist. Does anyone know of something that'll do this?

As I somewhat said in my previous response, I'm not sure I really need the zone valve anymore if I can create zones within the Tado App and then get the system to close down all unwanted rads.

Clearly, up to now, I would never go around changing the temperatures on TRV's because it would be totally impractical. However, Tado now allows full control of every rad with a TRV.

So it seems to me that the way forward will be to have all zones open and control each rad (either individually, in groups, or a combination of both). If all upstairs rads were off (and there is an Off setting on the TRV), then having a Zone valve open will have zero affect.

I apologise if I've missed something since I'm still waiting for my v3 Bridge to arrive, aaarrrrggghh, but I'm sure that someone will jump in and correct any misconceptions that I may have.

xckjoo

Marlow wrote: »

If you have cabling in place or can put it in place, Velbus should be able to do it. Check out the video above.

It basically replaces the boiler controller and lets you add any amount of zones to it including the immersion.

Their glass-panel is the temperature probe in the zone, but also the control element, where you set the temperature etc.

To control the immersion, they have a module called VMB4AN, that will take up to 4 temperature probes. One that should be compatible with the VMB4AN (to use on the immersion) would be something like this: https://www.omniinstruments.co.uk/temperature-and-humidity/surface-mount-and-pipe-mount-temperature-sensors/tt-351-strap-on-temperature-sensor.html

That's the system I'm currently looking at to replace my 1ch boiler controller, 4 zones that are wired god knows how in behind it without properly being able to call for heat and no heat control on the immersion at all.

The guys in the UK selling the system are fairly knowledgable and also vested in OpenHAB. So they would able to give you advise.

/M

Cheers. I'll have a look through the video when I can. I'm reluctant to commit to Fritz! routers though. Despite the fact that I have one and accept your point that I can always get a cheap one for managing things

. I use home-assistant at the moment but could spin up an OpenHAB docker image to test it out. I've nothing in HA that would stop me jumping ship to something else.

I have been debating a similar set up for the immersion with the Shelly relay. They have a temperature probe sensor addon that I could potentially mount on an exposed section of the tank. Ideally I'd like to be able to click a button (on a web page) that would ensure there's enough hot water for a shower. That might take some tinkering, but I don't think I'll find an off-the-shelf option. Tank is well insulated but there's exposed parts for piping near the top and bottom. Hopefully I would find that if the sensor reads X degrees, it's probable that there's enough hot water to last the length of a shower.

Ideally I'll do a bigger job on the house in a few years and update the heating at the same time so I guess I need something with a low initial cost outlay and also expandable in the future.

Marlow

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm reluctant to commit to Fritz! routers though.

Velbus has nothing to do with AVM or Fritz!Box routers. It's a completely different system.

The only part of my heating system, that uses the Fritz!Box are the TRVs and switched sockets. Velbus doesn't.

/M

2011

Mod note @ dezzell and Marlow:
This is a great thread that provides excellent advice. Both of you seem to have extensive real world experience, thank you for sharing. Please try to keep it friendly and leave out personal remarks.
Thank you.

bittihuduga

not a TADO query.
but has anyone tried to connect climote home heating with home assistant home automation?

deezell

bittihuduga wrote: »

not a TADO query.
but has anyone tried to connect climote home heating with home assistant home automation?

Afaik, Climote supports, or is supported by, Amazon Alexa skills only. I recall discussion of this and HA control of other basic stats like Ember. There are enthusiastic coders out there who tap the device API and code for 3rd party access, but it a hobbyist thing. The likes of these guys from way back, https://community.home-assistant.io/t/creating-a-custom-integration-climote/18521
Climote requires a SIM card subscription to run also, meaning a charge for what is just a basic 3 ZONE controller with internet access.

bittihuduga

deezell wrote: »

Afaik, Climote supports, or is supported by, Amazon Alexa skills only. I recall discussion of this and HA control of other basic stats like Ember. There are enthusiastic coders out there who tap the device API and code for 3rd party access, but it a hobbyist thing. The likes of these guys from way back, https://community.home-assistant.io/t/creating-a-custom-integration-climote/18521
Climote requires a SIM card subscription to run also, meaning a charge for what is just a basic 3 ZONE controller with internet access.

thanks. yes i have seen that old thread from HA site.
i am still a newbie in HA. will try it out and see.
i have a sim card subscription and the app works on the phone

xl500

xckjoo wrote: »

Update to my own post in case someone has a similar set up (boiler with simple timer and immersion with simple timer).

I got in touch to Tado to see if their kit could do what I wanted and it would only be able to control one of the interfaces; either the boiler or the immersion. I was hoping to be able to control both but maybe that device doesn't exist. Does anyone know of something that'll do this?

My other alternative would be to just go with Tado for the heating and something like a Shelly wireless relay for the immersion. I'd like to get a smarter immersion for the summer months

Honeywell Evohome can control an Electric Zone ie a Zone that will not call Boiler on but can be fully integrated into Schedules and controller this is the only system I am aware of that offers this you could use an Electric Zone to Switch the Immersion Honeywell make a 10a Relay for Evohome you could switch an external relay rated for immersion

I use this function to control Electric UF heating and works great these Zones come on and off and Boiler is not called for

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Following on from the Tado post in the bargains thread.

Would one of these be a good replacement for a rather basic heating set up of Riello 40 oil boiler that heats the whole house (no zone separation at the moment) and the hot water tank and an immersion heater for top ups of hot water? The tank is well insulated (replaced recently) but the hot water leaches upstairs in the summer when there's no heat running. Currently controlled by analog timers (one for the heat and one for the immersion) and a Sink/Bath+On/Off switch. No thermostat currently

Am I right that the app offers the basic functionality without a subscription?.......

You can use the app without a subscription. If you get the Tado stat with the extension kit, you can position the stat wirelessy, so no cabling.
The extension kit will give two switched live outputs (or one volt free SPDT). The SL outputs are CH and HW. The HW output can be used, via a relay, to time your immersion. (did you get it fixed?). Alternatively, the ext kit can be set up in gravity mode to fire the boiler from one output and the circulation pump from the other to give CH and HW, or HW only, if your system is wired accordingly and the HW is gravity fed.
To prevent HW leeching to upstairs rads, your plumber can fit a non return valve on the upstairs CH flow. This will only open under pressure from the pump, but not by gravity.
If you have HW separately from your oil boiler, it will be much less expensive than immersion top ups.
Also consider the Nest stat with it's two output relay box for your system

xckjoo

deezell wrote: »

You can use the app without a subscription. If you get the Tado stat with the extension kit, you can position the stat wirelessy, so no cabling.
The extension kit will give two switched live outputs (or one volt free SPDT). The SL outputs are CH and HW. The HW output can be used, via a relay, to time your immersion. (did you get it fixed?). Alternatively, the ext kit can be set up in gravity mode to fire the boiler from one output and the circulation pump from the other to give CH and HW, or HW only, if your system is wired accordingly and the HW is gravity fed.
To prevent HW leeching to upstairs rads, your plumber can fit a non return valve on the upstairs CH flow. This will only open under pressure from the pump, but not by gravity.
If you have HW separately from your oil boiler, it will be much less expensive than immersion top ups.
Also consider the Nest stat with it's two output relay box for your system

Thanks for that. I've pulled back on the heating automation again because the price of the tado has gone back up and have to fix that immersion first :pac:. I'm not in a rush with it so can keep an eye out for bargains.
Regarding the HW leeching, ASAIK we don't have any pump in the system and it's all gravity fed. Does that mean the non-returning valve set up wouldn't work? At the moment I just manually close the valve during the summer, but it usually takes me a while to remember to do it

I'll have a look a the Nest and see. Would prefer to avoid Google hardware if I can though

deezell

xckjoo wrote: »

Thanks for that. I've pulled back on the heating automation again because the price of the tado has gone back up and have to fix that immersion first :pac:. I'm not in a rush with it so can keep an eye out for bargains.
Regarding the HW leeching, ASAIK we don't have any pump in the system and it's all gravity fed. Does that mean the non-returning valve set up wouldn't work? At the moment I just manually close the valve during the summer, but it usually takes me a while to remember to do it
I'll have a look a the Nest and see. Would prefer to avoid Google hardware if I can though

It would be highly unlikely to have an oil fired boiler without a circulation pump. To heat ground floor radiators by gravity would require a large bore flow pipe under the radiators but above top outlet of the boiler, or else top fed radiators.
This Drayton 2 ZONE kit is equivalent to a Tado plus ext kit. https://www.screwfix.ie/p/drayton-heating-2-channel-wiser-thermostat-control-kit/9575v

garo

Lots of people post on this thread and deezell (and others) give excellent advice and then the posters go away. So just wanted to give a one year report after all the excellent advice I got here last year.

I went with a Honeywell EvoHome system (thanks xl500) installed via Electric Ireland. I got 12 smart TRVs for the 12 rads in my house along with a hot water valve. System cost 1680 installed - it is expensive! - but I am very happy with it. Gas consumption is down ~15% compared to the previous year - but hard to compare because while the degree-days were higher I got a better insulated HW cylinder. But above all the convenience. My house used to get a large variation in temps in the house - it's not the best insulated - but now everything can be controlled just the way I want. The app is intuitive and very nice and reliable. I had one issue with one of the TRVs malfunctioning but Electric Ireland replaced it for free as it was under warranty.

comfort

Hi guys, just a heads up if not known already but this is great news!!

HIVE is now compatible to work with Apple's HomeKit

Screenshot 2020-05-19 at 13.02.07

emaherx

Those of you using HA, how have you implemented heating scheduling?
At the start I found this to be one of the biggest hurdles, simply using the automations was not intuitive enough for others in the house.

This is my current scheduler:

Heating Schedule by Emaherx, on Flickr

My Main Central heating tab:

Heating Master by Emaherx, on Flickr

Heating zones

Room Temp by Emaherx, on Flickr

Hot water Zone with solar and Immersion

HW Temp by Emaherx, on Flickr

Graphs, useful for monitoring system performance

Heating Graph by Emaherx, on Flickr

deezell

emaherx wrote: »

Those of you using HA, how have you implemented heating scheduling?
At the start I found this to be one of the biggest hurdles, simply using the automations was not intuitive enough for others in the house.

This is my current scheduler:

Heating Schedule by Emaherx, on Flickr

My Main Central heating tab:
Heating Master by Emaherx, on Flickr

Heating zones
Room Temp by Emaherx, on Flickr

Hot water Zone with solar and Immersion
HW Temp by Emaherx, on Flickr

Graphs, useful for monitoring system performance
Heating Graph by Emaherx, on Flickr

What hardware is that controlling?

emaherx

deezell wrote: »

What hardware is that controlling?

Its a mixed bag.

Currently,
Smart switches: Tuya, Sonoff, MySensors
Smart Stats: Tuya
Sensors: MySensors and ESPHome

Plan is to replace any Tuya devices which can't be easily reflashed to remove their dependance on cloud servers with Shelly Switches.

deezell

emaherx wrote: »

Its a mixed bag.......

Hence it's not user friendly to other users. You could set up Google Home app in others phones, just enough for them to turn it up and down or boost. Tuya smart is on the GH list.

emaherx

deezell wrote: »

Hence it's not user friendly to other users. You could set up Google Home app in others phones, just enough for them to turn it up and down or boost. Tuya smart is on the GH list.

what's the GH list?

Its user friedly enough for them now.
No intention of using Google home or other Smart assistants as it works fine now.
First page (overview) on home assitant app has simple Boost and schedule on/off switches.

deezell

emaherx wrote: »

what's the GH list?

Its user friedly enough for them now.
No intention of using Google home or other Smart assistants as it works fine now.
First page (overview) on home assitant app has simple Boost and schedule on/off switches.

Google Home linked services, all the Smart stuff you can control from the Google Home app.

emaherx

deezell wrote: »

Google Home linked services, all the Smart stuff you can control from the Google Home app.

Ah OK,

No I want to eventually be free of any cloud services. I want the system to work completely without any need for an Internet connection, don't want outages because of a cloud service or my own internet connection being down.

xckjoo

emaherx wrote: »

Those of you using HA, how have you implemented heating scheduling?
At the start I found this to be one of the biggest hurdles, simply using the automations was not intuitive enough for others in the house.

I'm still only dipping my toe in the HA ecosystem and don't have any smart heating yet so not sure I can help you with implementation stuff, but the first question I'd ask myself is "what do I want to achieve?". Then work back to how to do it. Sometimes it might be easier to have some basic override for other users too (e.g. a separate login for the wife/kids with a single button that makes it warmer or boosts the hot water).

P.S. If you've any good resources for getting to grips with HA let me know. I'm finding it a bit of a mixed bag for getting things working. Moving from an RPi to a PC definitely helped. But can't get MQTT working now and not sure if it's me or an issue with HA not being fully mature. Half the info I find is out-of-date.

emaherx

To be honest, I have most things already setup and working fairly well at the moment. My question was more out of interest as to how others have implemented scheduling, mine works well and is user friendly now but it was a long road and and my yaml just for scheduling is a significant part of my overall configuration.

This is the link to my config. (its a bit out of date as I have cleaned it up and broken config into seperate files since)
https://community.home-assistant.io/t/multi-zone-heating-now-with-7day-scheduling/175719

I only started using HA in December, the reason I went down this road is I wanted to automate my heating system. The issue with my heating system was its control was poorly tought out from the begining with boiler switch at one end of the house, zone valves in the middle and hot water valve/ immersion / solar at the opposite end which ruled out a lot of the purpose built solutions.

I haven't done too much with configuring MQTT but it should be well covered by HA at this stage.

What sort of devices are you trying to connect with MQTT? If ESP based then ESPHome is deffinetly worth looking at.
There is a lot of information out of date and breaking changes are not uncommon with updates, definitly check changelog and buckup your system before running any HA updates. The Home Assitant Forums are quite useful for information and questions.

deezell

emaherx wrote: »

Ah OK,

No I want to eventually be free of any cloud services. I want the system to work completely without any need for an Internet connection, don't want outages because of a cloud service or my own internet connection being down.

Ok, You have all that, I thought you were looking for something for the "others". You could just put theTuya smart app on their phones, although it might conflict with your HA schedules if they start creating their own, hence the GH option suggestion whereby the "others" can access minimum functions, temperature, boost on CH, but not HW as I don't see GH linked services for your other devices, which I presume sense and control HW. The "others" wouldn't happen to be a spouse, kids etc? You'll be controlling the temperature of the shed if you don't make this intuitive and user/ family/wife friendly, because thats where you'll be living!

xckjoo

emaherx wrote: »

To be honest, I have most things already setup and working fairly well at the moment. My question was more out of interest as to how others have implemented scheduling, mine works well and is user friendly now but it was a long road and and my yaml just for scheduling is a significant part of my overall configuration.

This is the link to my config. (its a bit out of date as I have cleaned it up and broken config into seperate files since)
https://community.home-assistant.io/t/multi-zone-heating-now-with-7day-scheduling/175719

I only started using HA in December, the reason I went down this road is I wanted to automate my heating system. The issue with my heating system was its control was poorly tought out from the begining with boiler switch at one end of the house, zone valves in the middle and hot water valve/ immersion / solar at the opposite end which ruled out a lot of the purpose built solutions.

I haven't done too much with configuring MQTT but it should be well covered by HA at this stage.

What sort of devices are you trying to connect with MQTT? If ESP based then ESPHome is deffinetly worth looking at.
There is a lot of information out of date and breaking changes are not uncommon with updates, definitly check changelog and buckup your system before running any HA updates. The Home Assitant Forums are quite useful for information and questions.

Just a shelly sensor at the moment but have some tasmota plugs lying around that aren't doing anything. The out-of-date issue is definitely the most annoying thing, even though the developments are definitely improving things. TBH I probably just need to get some time to sit down and actually work through it. I'm still just messing around with it and don't have much free time at the moment. Still have an immersion that needs fixing :pac:

emaherx

deezell wrote: »

Ok, You have all that, I thought you were looking for something for the "others". You could just put theTuya smart app on their phones, although it might conflict with your HA schedules if they start creating their own, hence the GH option suggestion whereby the "others" can access minimum functions, temperature, boost on CH, but not HW as I don't see GH linked services for your other devices, which I presume sense and control HW. The "others" wouldn't happen to be a spouse, kids etc? You'll be controlling the temperature of the shed if you don't make this intuitive and user/ family/wife friendly, because thats where you'll be living!

No, I have it working as I like and it suits the "others" (yes my wife and kids).
Was simply wondering how others here using HA implemented scheduling, it's an issue that comes up often in HA forums. Although I got it doing what I wanted through very convoluted YAML configuration with some custom components, there is no standard Lovelace card for simple heating scheduling which I think a lot of people would like.

Thanks for your input but I'm not at all concerned about the useability of individual devices regardless of vendors as they all work seamlessly together through HA.

I'm removing Tuya devices that can't be easily re-flashed for local use so I'm not worried about the Tuya app as it will be redundant shortly. I've already purchased the Shelly devices to replace them. I don't like the idea of having any dependence on cloud services for the heating to work.

maxamillius

Deezel probably one for you,

Sisters house is setup as per the attached image...

Ideal logic boiler

Single channel programmer

No thermostat

TRVs on rads

All wiring as per the diagram.

As it stands the boiler will not switch on via the programmer.

If I take the brown out of terminal one on the programmer and put it in with the mains, the boiler will switch on.

There is a 4 core flex from the programmer to the boiler, the black of this is not terminated within the boiler.

Any ideas, could it just be the programmer is faulty?

Cheers

maxamillius

Image attached now

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

Image attached now

I'm not at all in any way in the heating business but my gut feeling is that the Black should be connected to SL and that the link between L and SL removed

maxamillius

championc wrote: »

I'm not at all in any way in the heating business but my gut feeling is that the Black should be connected to SL and that the link between L and SL removed

You could be on the money there?! I’ll try it out when I’m next in her house

Thanks for the response