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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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ShaneC1600

donvito99 wrote: »

I think it is because it stands to reason that motorways move goods in Ireland quickly and efficiently and offer this over vast areas whereas railways at present only do this coincidentally i.e. a couple of locations that happen to sit on top of the line that want to move stuff to a location that also happens to sit on the line.

Why would someone in Ballina put a container on a train at, say, Claremorris to be taken to, say, Ringaskiddy when you could just drive it on a lorry from Ballina to the port on a motorway? The former is complicated and slow, the latter is straightforward and direct.

Motorways connecting this island have only really been established in recent times though with less than 1000km of motorways built. Are all industries sitting on the motorway to be served by these motorways? Yes, great if you want to move from Galway to Dublin for example.

I don't know why they would not just use Ballina rail freight yard in the first place though?

Pity the railway was not built before we constructed out industries and before we increased our population centers and we could have planned around them, upgraded and improved them and maybe not required so many roads, trucks and cars, oh wait!

donvito99

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Motorways connecting this island have only really been established in recent times though with less than 1000km of motorways built. Are all industries sitting on the motorway to be served by these motorways? Yes, great if you want to move from Galway to Dublin for example.

I think that proves my point. Despite the relatively limited network, its the road network that is the most efficient way of transporting goods in this country.

If moving goods by rail was a more efficient mode than by roads in Ireland, wouldn't we be moving goods en masse by rail?

[Deleted User]

donvito99 wrote: »

I think that proves my point. Despite the relatively limited network, its the road network that is the most efficient way of transporting goods in this country.

If moving goods by rail was a more efficient mode than by roads in Ireland, wouldn't we be moving goods en masse by rail?

Rail transport these days cannot match the efficiency of road transport for short to medium distance journeys, simply due to the way they're configured.
If the rail hubs (gone) were operated in a similar way to DHL/DPD/FedEX etc, with road transport used for "the last mile", rail for the long haul stuff & road for the cross country routes (Tracks gone) then rail freight could become more viable.

For example it would be viable for a depot in Galway, to collect in the west and load a mixed use train to Dublin and another depot transfer to road again for delivery in Dublin

donvito99

Deleted User wrote: »

For example it would be viable for a depot in Galway, to collect in the west and load a mixed use train to Dublin and another depot transfer to road again for delivery in Dublin

Would it really though considering the distance is only 200km? I can understand this arrangement if you're talking '000s of kilometres, but why use two lorries and a train when one lorry + 1 driver can do it?

[Deleted User]

donvito99 wrote: »

Would it really though considering the distance is only 200km? I can understand this arrangement if you're talking '000s of kilometres, but why use two lorries and a train when one lorry + 1 driver can do it?

I did say "mixed use train"
The train part of the route is at near zero cost as it is using a passenger train with a freight* car in it.
* realistically a modified passenger car.

Muckyboots

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Pity the railway was not built before we constructed out industries and before we increased our population centers and we could have planned around them, upgraded and improved them and maybe not required so many roads, trucks and cars, oh wait!

The railways were built to suit the Victorian gentry class of the day. In fairness, they did pay for it. "Industry" moves to a different beat and if it wants railways it gets and got railways. "Industry" don't want railways.:(

[Deleted User]

Muckyboots wrote: »

The railways were built to suit the Victorian gentry class of the day. In fairness, they did pay for it. "Industry" moves to a different beat and if it wants railways it gets and got railways. "Industry" don't want railways.:(

Wrong, railways were originally built to move freight, passengers were secondary.

ShaneC1600

Muckyboots wrote: »

The railways were built to suit the Victorian gentry class of the day. In fairness, they did pay for it. "Industry" moves to a different beat and if it wants railways it gets and got railways. "Industry" don't want railways.:(

Sorry I meant passengers for industry not so much freight. For example IDA business parks along and either side of an existing rail line. Athenry or Tuam for example. Why would industry not want improved access for the people working in them? I'd say the industry in Parkmore in Galway wishes the rail passed by the roundabout now.
But that's just wishful thinking now, who knows what's going to happen in the next 24 months ðŸ™ˆ

end of the road

donvito99 wrote: »

I think that proves my point. Despite the relatively limited network, its the road network that is the most efficient way of transporting goods in this country.

If moving goods by rail was a more efficient mode than by roads in Ireland, wouldn't we be moving goods en masse by rail?

not necessarily, no, as road transport is currently very very cheap.
rail isn't exactly very inefficient these days anyway, processes have been majorly streamlined. the issue with it now is that most of the hubs have gone and wouldn't be brought back.

donvito99 wrote: »

Would it really though considering the distance is only 200km? I can understand this arrangement if you're talking '000s of kilometres, but why use two lorries and a train when one lorry + 1 driver can do it?

the problem is that 1 truck and 1 driver from all of these places add up to a serious amount which is only going to grow and grow, and the costs and space to facilitate them will i would imagine have to grow as well.
we will not be able to keep expanding and spending to facilitate this indefinitely, i would imagine.

serfboard

end of the road wrote: »

the problem is that 1 truck and 1 driver from all of these places add up to a serious amount which is only going to grow and grow, and the costs and space to facilitate them will i would imagine have to grow as well.

If you drive on the busy three-lane motorways in England, the left lane is nearly always completely full of trucks, and the middle lane can quite often have faster trucks overtaking slower ones, leading to the outside lane being the only suitable one for driving in.

However, their population density is far greater than ours, so I don't anticipate us having that problem on most routes for many decades. (And even for the busy M50, we were only at 8% HGV traffic for 2019).

Of course, as with passengers, the problem is how to navigate the cities, so much as P&R is the answer for non-freight, depots on the outskirts of cities are the answer for trucks. And in fact, if driverless trucks come to pass, this is exactly how they will operate.

Muckyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Wrong, railways were originally built to move freight, passengers were secondary.

Really? We are talking about the WRC here, right? What freight was envisaged when the WRC was instated in the 1890s -1900's?

Muckyboots

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Sorry I meant passengers for industry not so much freight. For example IDA business parks along and either side of an existing rail line. Athenry or Tuam for example. Why would industry not want improved access for the people working in them? I'd say the industry in Parkmore in Galway wishes the rail passed by the roundabout now.
But that's just wishful thinking now, who knows what's going to happen in the next 24 months &#55357;&#56904;

If a FDI wanted to locate to Tuam and required the railway line to be opened as part of that location plan, the railway would be opened. Same would apply to Parkmore and Athenry. Valeo requested a by-pass and cycle lanes and were delivered both.

[Deleted User]

Muckyboots wrote: »

Really? We are talking about the WRC here, right? What freight was envisaged when the WRC was instated in the 1890s -1900's?

Cattle, sheep other agricultural produce don't forget that the alternative was donkey carts on unmade roads!

Isambard

Deleted User wrote: »

Cattle, sheep other agricultural produce don't forget that the alternative was donkey carts on unmade roads!

yes everything went by rail pre motor vehicle.

Muckyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Cattle, sheep other agricultural produce don't forget that the alternative was donkey carts on unmade roads!

Agreed. Like I said, the railways were built and paid for by the gentry classes of those days.

[Deleted User]

Just going to leave some facts about freight transport in Ireland here

In the period 2006 to 2018, road freight carried 2,114,979,000 tonnes of cargo while rail carried 8,359,000 in the same period. Thats 2.1 billion versus 8 million. Y axis is in millions below

The total for rail over that 12 year period, 8,359,000 tonnes, equates to 7% of the volume of road freight in its lowest year, 2012 when 108,078,000 tonnes were carried by road.

Rail freight is also on a downward spiral over that period

The tiny red sliver you see at the top of the road freight bars, thats rail freight

Raw data available at https://statbank.cso.ie/

serfboard

Muckyboots wrote: »

Valeo requested a by-pass and cycle lanes and were delivered both.

I also heard that the reason that natural gas was brought to Tuam was from a Valeo request too.

[Deleted User]

Great bit of analysis there, but it says more about the killing off of railfreight than anything else.

I just had a quick look and the collapse in rail freight in the mid "noughties" is astounding, it's as if someone pulled the plug (which they probably did).

full image.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=511971&stc=1&d=1588791755

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/principal-commodities-conveyed-by-rail-000-tonnes-by-commodity-and-year/resource/3620d1c1-a4d1-4d3e-b8da-983a732fc712/view/228a7952-aff5-4c8a-ac5a-c239ca22c731

[Deleted User]

Yeah, I was going to show the longer trend but there wasn't road freight figures to put up as a comparison so I left it from 2006 onwards

ShaneC1600

Muckyboots wrote: »

If a FDI wanted to locate to Tuam and required the railway line to be opened as part of that location plan, the railway would be opened. Same would apply to Parkmore and Athenry. Valeo requested a by-pass and cycle lanes and were delivered both.

So that’s the answer, continue to let the tail wag the dog and provide ad-hoc services instead of proper infrastructure planning. I suppose it’s worked up to now. Most areas are well served with great infrastructure.

blackwhite

Deleted User wrote: »

Great bit of analysis there, but it says more about the killing off of railfreight than anything else.

I just had a quick look and the collapse in rail freight in the mid "noughties" is astounding, it's as if someone pulled the plug (which they probably did).

full image.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=511971&stc=1&d=1588791755

https://data.gov.ie/dataset/principal-commodities-conveyed-by-rail-000-tonnes-by-commodity-and-year/resource/3620d1c1-a4d1-4d3e-b8da-983a732fc712/view/228a7952-aff5-4c8a-ac5a-c239ca22c731

IE dropped their containerised freight division in 2005 because it was haemorrhaging cash. Bulk cement died off in the period as well because the quarries chose to move their volumes to road.

The completion of motorways and major road projects during the late 90s and the 00s meant that the cost of road transport dropped, and rail couldn’t compete over short distances

There’s no way the winding alignment between Sligo and Claremorris will ever be a viable freight route - the only way to make it work would be a new more direct alignment, which is unlikely given the land acquisition costs etc

mayo.mick

The closed railway between Claremorris and Collooney, affectionately known as "The Burma Road" (if I remember correctly, from a history tour walk) is 47 miles long with 48 level crossings.

end of the road

mayo.mick wrote: »

The closed railway between Claremorris and Collooney, affectionately known as "The Burma Road" (if I remember correctly, from a history tour walk) is 47 miles long with 48 level crossings.

crossings can be closed for the most part.
that section most certainly won't reopen anyway i expect.

blackwhite

end of the road wrote: »

crossings can be closed for the most part.
that section most certainly won't reopen anyway i expect.

Even with crossings closed the alignment is so meandering that even now, with the N17 in Sligo being so poor, it wouldn’t be able to compete with bus services for Sligo-Galway.

The only way a WRC could ever work would be a new alignment between Sligo and Claremorris.

It’s unlikely to ever happen, but that doesn’t justify advocating wasting millions on opening the old alignment just for the sake of having a railway.

L1011

serfboard wrote: »

I also heard that the reason that natural gas was brought to Tuam was from a Valeo request too.

Any large consumer will be provided with gas assuming they're going to use enough and/or pay enough. Centreparcs Longford being another one.

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

Really? We are talking about the WRC here, right? What freight was envisaged when the WRC was instated in the 1890s -1900's?

Good point MB. The railways of C19th Europe moved goods in the same way as the canals had, then along came roads and trucks. The freight on the WRC in the early days was not so much freight as consumer goods and food, because it was the only way to move stuff through the supply chain. I grew up in a town called Burton on Trent, the home of the British brewing industry, even up to the 1950s. trains Criss crossed the streets of the town moving raw materials and finished product from depots on the mainline to the breweries in the town. All gone of course by the late 1950s and early 1960s. When the lorry took over. We are not going back to a system in which goods trains - think about that phrase "goods trains" trundled across the country and stopped off in loading yards near town centres to offload beer barrels, livestock for local slaughter houses, bags of flour for local bakeries etc. Quaint though this idea is it is not going to happen. The WRC was never a freight line like so many other closed railways it existed because the road system and road based supply chain logistics did not exist. Of course the rail system remains very important for mainline services into city centres, and on this small island that is what we need to concentrate on.....not trying to turn back the clock on the history of modern supply chain logistics.

More could be said but you will all be bored by now.

serfboard

L1011 wrote: »

Any large consumer will be provided with gas assuming they're going to use enough and/or pay enough. Centreparcs Longford being another one.

Indeed that is the case where a pipeline exists, but there is a little more to it than that in the case of Tuam. The original plan for the Gas pipeline was for it to bypass Tuam and not to come into the town at all.

IIRC, Valeo asked for a diversion, so that the Gas pipeline would actually be brought into the town to supply their factory.

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

Indeed that is the case where a pipeline exists, but there is a little more to it than that in the case of Tuam. The original plan for the Gas pipeline was for it to bypass Tuam and not to come into the town at all.

IIRC, Valeo asked for a diversion, so that the Gas pipeline would actually be brought into the town to supply their factory.

his post still applies to this situation though.
the company would not have brought the pipe into tuam without a guarantee of a certain amount of use and payment by the factory to justify it.

serfboard

end of the road wrote: »

his post still applies to this situation though.
the company would not have brought the pipe into tuam without a guarantee of a certain amount of use and payment by the factory to justify it.

My post still applies though - the pipeline would not have been brought into Tuam without Valeo requesting it.

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

My post still applies though - the pipeline would not have been brought into Tuam without Valeo requesting it.

so?
simply requesting it would in all likely hood not have been enough, they would have had to offer an incentive for the provider to spend the money deviating the pipe from their original plan.