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If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bilbot79

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

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the14thwarrior

If working from home becomes a thing........
i'd crack up and find a job with an office and a desk because at the moment......
I'm using a make shift desk as my real desk
a crappy chair as my office chair
tripping over everything in my bedroom to access a million plugs to keep everything charged up

i'm isolated enough without having to traispe down stairs and avoid the other person working from home (and hope they are not on a conference call) to take a break from the "office" but i find i have no where to go.

I'm frequently to be found sitting on my doorstep to see a different view
family and friends think working from home means you are available to answer the door / phone / take in deliveries at all times

internet crashing and stupid team people ...... who think they can work from home........ but don't understand a bit about it at all..........don't get me started on microsoft teams and zoom..........

i miss saying hello to people
i miss the gossip and the craic
i miss having a tea break with (some) people
I miss having a proper printer and easy access to supplies
i miss having a head space to commute and i never thought i'd say that.....

[Deleted User]

I know three couples who in the last two years have moved to Clare from Dublin and kept their old jobs.
Know a partner in a major accountancy practice who told me last year that working at least part time from home was something most accountants in Dublin now expect if they are moving to a new job. She said it is hard enough to recruit them anyway, so not offering working from home part time wasn’t really an option.
Surely working from home is already a thing?

Cyrus

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I know three couples who in the last two years have moved to Clare from Dublin and kept their old jobs.
Know a partner in a major accountancy practice who told me last year that working at least part time from home was something most accountants in Dublin now expect if they are moving to a new job. She said it is hard enough to recruit them anyway, so not offering working from home part time wasn’t really an option.
Surely working from home is already a thing?

I don’t know what practice she is in but the big 4 don’t tend to go in for that and the rest of the firms aren’t major

Not my experience of hiring experienced accountants at all as it goes

[Deleted User]

Cyrus wrote: »

I don’t know what practice she is in but the big 4 don’t tend to go in for that and the rest of the firms aren’t major

Not my experience of hiring experienced accountants at all as it goes

Not in the big four, but at the top of the next tier, I’m told by my accountant wife, who knows more than me. Tbh if you’re in that game you probably know more than me. This woman told us it is very hard to get decent people, very good time to be an accountant.

Cyrus

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Not in the big four, but at the top of the next tier, I’m told by my accountant wife, who knows more than me. Tbh if you’re in that game you probably know more than me. This woman told us it is very hard to get decent people, very good time to be an accountant.

Yeah that’s probably true but outside of the big 4 it’s a different ball game and if it’s where I think it is I can see why they need to offer things the top 4 firms don’t , we have hired a few from there and wfh hasn’t been on the table but they are very happy to be out of there for whatever reason!

El Tarangu

Saw an interesting article on the topic today - if a lot more people are demanding to work from home, banks (any big company, really) will find it harder to justify spending big bucks renting huge office space in the most expensive areas in the world.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52467965

Which would presumably eventually drive the cost of office space down, and maybe change the land use of areas of citiy centres... Interesting times we are living in, anyway

I agree with this. In the short term office space is a waste. In the medium term, due to social distancing requirements office space is likely twice as expensive per worker.

This could be the start of the next "down turn" in big urban area growth that has been going on since probably the downturns of the 70s.

We could be locked into a depression cycle where big businesses look to reduce cost in office space, causing a spike in knock on closures in businesses that support huge numbers of people in City centres. This would effect all services from maintenance, engineering, shops, restaurants etc. Hence knock on reductions in spending.

It'll be a win for small towns and villages, who are well positioned to take in a few new people as they probably have spare capacity in terms of housing, schools, healthcare and shops.

I wouldn't like to be the ESB right now as they hope to become a major landlord after their new offices are completed.

893bet

A blended approach is wonderful.

Work life balance.

Less commute time
Less fuel and wear on car
Less traffic on road
Not having to take a days holidays so that you can be at home to let the skyman/plumber etc in to the house.

5 yrs time jobs will be advertised with a % wfh I would hope.

Sad Professor

I have very mixed feelings about WFH. A lot of it due to difficulties caused by the current circumstance along with issues specific to my job (no manager, unequal distribution of work, people with childcare/medical issues, technical issues, etc). I also really miss the social aspect of the office environment. I have colleagues who I miss seeing on a regular basis and going out for coffee with them etc. Staying in touch via Whatsapp etc isn't the same. It's difficult to know when someone is free and available to talk when you aren't in the same room as them.

Some kind of mix might be nice, especially if in a future role I found myself having to make a particularly long or inconvenient commute. However I'd worry about hot desking becoming the norm and not having a personal and consistent work space in the office.

[Deleted User]

Cyrus wrote: »

Exactly I’ve seen some rubbish posted on boards but that must be the most nonsensical post I have ever had the misfortune to read

No mention of what the children are doing otherwise during the day. Preschoolers minding and entertaining themselves presumably.

A former employer of mine had a very detailed policy for working from home, the first line of which was that working from home is not a substitute for childcare.

Practically I can see myself working one or two days from home after this. I would miss some of the social and informal interactions too much to go full time from home, and having two small children is a distraction, even with my wife full time minding, doing pickups etc.

jester77

My office just posted their list of rules for when returning. Have to register when you will be in the office, cannot be at the same time as the person beside you and opposite you, company will provide a mask and it must me worn when not at desk, now required to log in when arriving at work, no meetings unless super urgent, and then only 2 people allowed with distance, meeting room must be aired for 1 hour afterwards, no beer deliveries allowed, not allowed to move around building unless urgent and it must be logged, no more than 2 people in common areas at a time.

gordongekko

jester77 wrote: »

, no beer deliveries allowed.

Where do you work?

hmmm

There's going to be a set of rules specific to this crisis.

When it's over and we have the opportunity to go back to "normal", I expect many of the more traditional managers to demand everyone goes back to the office. Fine, but that will impact on their ability to retain and recruit new staff.

For others, I expect that they will want to see the social side of the office remain, so probably a day a week at a minimum in the office with your team. Bigger organisations already have virtual teams from all over the world, so this is less important for them.

It's bad news for city-centre property, and I'd expect people to move to nicer areas (maybe outskirts of city?) which still have decent transport links to the offices, but offer more in terms of leisure, outdoor activities etc. I'm not sure that the dream of moving to a remote island and working from home 5 days a week is quite on the table for most people yet.

snotboogie

rn wrote: »

I agree with this. In the short term office space is a waste. In the medium term, due to social distancing requirements office space is likely twice as expensive per worker.

This could be the start of the next "down turn" in big urban area growth that has been going on since probably the downturns of the 70s.

We could be locked into a depression cycle where big businesses look to reduce cost in office space, causing a spike in knock on closures in businesses that support huge numbers of people in City centres. This would effect all services from maintenance, engineering, shops, restaurants etc. Hence knock on reductions in spending.

It'll be a win for small towns and villages, who are well positioned to take in a few new people as they probably have spare capacity in terms of housing, schools, healthcare and shops.

I wouldn't like to be the ESB right now as they hope to become a major landlord after their new offices are completed.

Urbanization since 1970 is arguably the most notable trend in human activity. Everything is being viewed through the prism of a family with parents in their mid 30's to mid 50's. College students will still need to attend a college, upon graduating will the 20 somethings be happy to move to a village in rural Ireland and work remotely? As people hit their 60' they will want to be closer to medical facilities and as they get less mobile the McMansion which requires a 5 mile drive to the nearest Aldi and a 20 mile drive to the nearest GP will be a lot less appealing.

December2012

For me, 3 days a week in the office would be perfect. I would get to see my colleagues, have meetings, and be in the car. I also get to be in a different location for walks during my lunch, etc.,

Then at home the other 2 days, no M50, no commute, maybe get more workouts in, more family time, and hopefully less childcare costs for afterschool, because my children are of an age where that would suit us.

After breaking my back for a very long time suffering the payment of two children in childcare, I look forward to this as a silver lining.

beauf

hmmm wrote: »

...When it's over and we have the opportunity to go back to "normal", I expect many of the more traditional managers to demand everyone goes back to the office. Fine, but that will impact on their ability to retain and recruit new staff.
....

I don't think they care. They don't get it. Never will.

gnf_ireland

I am lucky enough to be in a job that has a relative amount of flexibility, and I would have tended to spend around 2 days a week working at home most weeks for the last decade. Because of this, I am also lucky enough to have an office in the house, and is fully kitted out to support working from home, complete with monitors, printer etc. I knew I was likely to have a lot more working from home (nature of the project I am working on) back in December, so I bought myself a jabra spreaker to use with the likes of teams, webex and zoom, making video calls much easier.

But our current environment is not normal working from home. Most people are not set-up for it, and many people have children at home trying to mind/home school them while doing a day job. Lots are trying to juggle lots right now, and also many getting serious cabin fever at this point. Peoples work patterns have had to change to accommodate their situations, and while most employers have been accommodating, that wont last for ever. I have also found out over the years, 100% remote is very very difficult both socially but also you lose contact with your colleagues and becomes a case of out of sight/out of mind. And of course it really depends on the industry you work in and the role you do in it

The idea that one poster had about collecting kids from school multiple times, feeding them lunch etc while working from home would require serious flexibility and way beyond anything most people could expect to have, especially on a regular basis. It would require a role that is very output orientated and the ability to work in a very low touch environment (ie no calls or instant messages). I have found I was able to do this, on occasion, when by day was a bit freer than normal, but on the whole it was not practical. The bigger challenge was to be able to guarantee, every Wednesday (for example), I would be able to do pick-up and I could be relied upon. 90% of the time it would have been fine, but the 10% would make it very difficult.

I do think over time, a ~40% onsite/~60% offsite option will become more common place, but employers will end up putting restrictions on the home work environment - i.e. must have a dedicated work space that can be locked (for security purposes). But its likely it will come with expectations around response times for instance messages (i.e. you are online and available during the working day).

It will be interesting to see how it does work, and the impact on people's well-being also. It has positives and negatives, and its easy to focus on the positives in these cases. But one thing it should assist with is the migration of people from urban areas where housing demand is out of control and into more rural settings. It would be a bizarre twist of faith if covid-19 ends up being the savior for rural Ireland !

gnf_ireland

beauf wrote: »

I don't think they care. They don't get it. Never will.

Company culture will become more important in the interview process over time. If someone earns 5k a year less, but has the opportunity to live further away and avoid the stresses of life in an urban setting (including house prices & commuting time), it will become important.

Some will never get it - that I understand. Some don't get it now, never mind when things get back to the new normal

gnf_ireland

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Know a partner in a major accountancy practice who told me last year that working at least part time from home was something most accountants in Dublin now expect if they are moving to a new job. She said it is hard enough to recruit them anyway, so not offering working from home part time wasn’t really an option.
Surely working from home is already a thing?

Yes, it was becoming a thing in a lot of work places, especially when its an employees market and companies have to be flexible. Its a much bigger challenge during a recession when employers tend to hold the balance of power.

Some companies (and managers) are better than others. Its all down to trust really and I have known as many employees to break that during working from home as managers who fail to understand it.

Cyrus

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Yes, it was becoming a thing in a lot of work places, especially when its an employees market and companies have to be flexible. Its a much bigger challenge during a recession when employers tend to hold the balance of power.

Some companies (and managers) are better than others. Its all down to trust really and I have known as many employees to break that during working from home as managers who fail to understand it.

it all boils down to trust, in my own situation i trust all the mangers that report to me totally, and in reality they had ended up working more rather than less.

Some of them have teams of more experienced / better paid people reporting to them, again they have been great, but some of them have a higher proportion of staff in the 30-40k bracket and unfortunately some of them arent really pulling their weight, disappearing throughout the day, taking an age to respond on IM, not responding to queries from external parties.

That for us is the issue, as it all falls back on their manager to resolve which is unfair on him.

My general feeling is that people who care about their career will be fine, people who just see it as a job will be more likely to take the mick. its the same in the office environment as well but easier to control.

Gavin "shels"

I believe in my current role, people who work remotely abroad are on contractor contracts and are paid at the local salary rates not Irish rates.

My previous manager used to live down the country, would come to the office once a week, sometimes twice.

Personally I used to work at home maybe twice a month, longest previous to this was a week while our office renovations. Wouldn't be a huge fan of 100% working from home but I have had a proper setup since my college days, desk, proper office chair (which I've let my fiancee use until our one on order arrives), dual monitors, etc... My own job have been setup from working at home since long before I started there over 2 years ago so always prepared - our office is usually empty on a Friday. We've several city centre offices, I can't see us keeping them all.

gnf_ireland

Cyrus wrote: »

My general feeling is that people who care about their career will be fine, people who just see it as a job will be more likely to take the mick. its the same in the office environment as well but easier to control.

I agree to a point. There are some people who are just terrible working without structure, and many people get overly distracted when working from home. Its not that they don't care about their career per se, its more they struggle with that level of responsibility to manage their own time properly.

When they are in the office, the structure is there and they can work within that easier. Without that structure they hit the snooze button a few times too often in the morning, go for a coffee at 11am, meet someone and stay an hour etc, and can end up working until 10pm trying to catch up, if they are that way inclined. We all know people who cannot manage their own time.

But yes, on top of those you have the group that simply don't care and they will only do the bare minimum required in the office, and much less than that in a remote environment.

Cyrus

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Its not that they don't care about their career per se, its more they struggle with that level of responsibility to manage their own time properly.

what kind of career will someone have if they cant be responsible for themselves and their own time

beauf

snotboogie wrote: »

Urbanization since 1970 is arguably the most notable trend in human activity. Everything is being viewed through the prism of a family with parents in their mid 30's to mid 50's. College students will still need to attend a college, upon graduating will the 20 somethings be happy to move to a village in rural Ireland and work remotely? As people hit their 60' they will want to be closer to medical facilities and as they get less mobile the McMansion which requires a 5 mile drive to the nearest Aldi and a 20 mile drive to the nearest GP will be a lot less appealing.

I don't agree with your prism.

But as services and opportunities are stripped from the rural locations and concentrated on urban centers as a short sighted cost cutting strategy and economic policy it causes urbanization. However this will cause stress, and bottlenecks in concentrated areas.

beauf

Another problem is a lot of managers and places don't measure productivity or keep metrics.
They don't have "tools" to manage. They literally have to see people in the office, or talk to them face to face to manage things. So they are unable to function if they can't do those things.

Kevhog1988

Im a single dad wfh at the moment with my son whos 8 and my 2 parents. I print his school stuff the night before and get everything ready so he knows what hes doing during the day. I then do my normal work day and check his stuff as we get through the day. Seems to work well so far but have to say my parents are a great help between 3 and my finish time at 5.30pm. I would gladly work from home constantly and have him at home also with me doing his school drops etc. I think it would be fairly simple to get a routine to do everything and possible take turns with a neighbour to do the school run.

gladerunner

If working at home becomes a thing, it will offer so much more flexibility.
Less petrol and parking costs will be like a raise, add less lotto money, birthday money, leaving money and lunches out. All nice of course, but not a necessity.

Where i work in the civil service, they have opened up the systems to allow us to work over a 7 day period ( to enable childcare responsibilities and other arrangements outside of work)
This flexibility would allow me to work more hours, no commute ( which was an hour each way ), I could work early in the morning and during school time, and work even an additional 2/3 hours in the evening if required. Thus fulfilling my work and childcare requirements.

Don't forget, creches are grand places, but they are not the ideal scenario for small children, especially ones already tired after a normal school day. I cant imagine parents wanting to go back readily to the madness before the Pandemic.

Also, the positive effects on the environment with less cars on the road. I see it as a win win.

A good manager doesnt need to see you in the office to know you are doing a good job

beauf

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I....When they are in the office, the structure is there and they can work within that easier. Without that structure they hit the snooze button a few times too often in the morning, go for a coffee at 11am, meet someone and stay an hour etc, and can end up working until 10pm trying to catch up, if they are that way inclined. We all know people who cannot manage their own time....

Not everyone works well in a 9-5 environment.
They work in bursts, and often at night. Especially creative people.

There is a different between that and slacking off.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

what kind of career will someone have if they cant be responsible for themselves and their own time

That's why some people don't work well in isolation, but work well in a team. Why they need assistants to manage schedules and such. Or just structure.

All sorts of people. Though if you work in a specialized area people will be very similar.

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

That's why some people don't work well in isolation, but work well in a team. Why they need assistants to manage schedules and such. Or just structure.

All sorts of people. Though if you work in a specialized area people will be very similar.

anyone who cant manage their own time, unless they have founded the company, is unlikely to find themselves with an assistant to manage their schedule.