FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

Mortelaro wrote: »

So in summary
You can't deny that the constitution describes this government by one word only and that is government
You can't deny that you said earlier that it's not a government (in flagrant contradiction to the constitution)
And you're having trouble with the fact that because the government in its entirety is made up of Fine Gael,its also a Fine Gael government

Theres no disagreement on the caretaker capacity

Here is what I said:

There is no government there is a 'caretaker government'.
The caretaker government cannot resign until a 'government' is formed...if it was a 'government' it could stay in position.
The reason there is a caretaker government is because there is no governement.

How long do we need to do this for?

Whenever you are ready...was the poster I challenged right to say that 'FG are the only party willing to lead' by virtue of the fact that they are 'in government' or is it the case that they are duty bound to fulfill executive roles because that is what the constitution says should happen when there is (wait for it again....) NO government formed?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here is what I said:

There is no government there is a 'caretaker government'.
The caretaker government cannot resign until a 'government' is formed...if it was a 'government' it could stay in position.
The reason there is a caretaker government is because there is no governement.

How long do we need to do this for?

Whenever you are ready...was the poster I challenged right to say that 'FG are the only party willing to lead' by virtue of the fact that they are 'in government' or is it the case that they are duty bound to fulfill executive roles because that is what the constitution says should happen when there is (wait for it again....) NO government formed?

Except, that's not what you said..
You said

"Just because they are trying to dictate and shut out scrutiny and other opinions does not make them a government."

They are the legitimate government according to the constitution untill the Dáil votes in a new Taoiseach
Like it or lump it

I've already dealt exhaustively with your incorrect assertion that a government that only has Fine Gael in it is not a fine Gael government
Its obvious you don't like that fact
It doesn't change it

landofthetree

landofthetree wrote: »

37 billion to be borrowed in 2020 and 2021.

Amazing how Mary Lou and SF have policies that not 1 citizen in Ireland will suffer. We can even expand public services.

Amazing how FG FF say their will be no increase in taxes.

The Greens tell us to grow lettuce.

PBP Sol are telling us all not to blame China or WHO.

What a circus

So the DOF are now saying the budget deficit will be 30billion for 2020. Every week the figure goes up.

Will probably be 50 billion in the end.

Basically back into IMF/EU territory. Another bailout.

Mortelaro wrote: »

Except, that's not what you said..
You said

"Just because they are trying to dictate and shut out scrutiny and other opinions does not make them a government."

They are the legitimate government according to the constitution untill the Dáil votes in a new Taoiseach
Like it or lump it

I've already dealt exhaustively with your incorrect assertion that a government that only has Fine Gael in it is not a fine Gael government
Its obvious you don't like that fact
It doesn't change it

So you jumped into a conversation and stated lashing out allegations about snubs to the constitution etc etc and really what the problem was, was you are hyper sensitive to anything that you think is a criticism of FG.

Continue ignoring this if you must,

Whenever you are ready...was the poster I challenged right to say that 'FG are the only party willing to lead' by virtue of the fact that they are 'in government' or is it the case that they are duty bound to fulfill executive roles because that is what the constitution says should happen when there is (wait for it again....) NO government formed?

It is a simple, yes, he was right or no, he was wrong.

Hubertj

landofthetree wrote: »

So the DOF are now saying the budget deficit will be 30billion for 2020. Every week the figure goes up.

Will probably be 50 billion in the end.

Basically back into IMF/EU territory. Another bailout.

And what is the alternative? Not borrow the money? Grow it? All misery with you. Are you still hurting from the last recession? Get on with your life.

landofthetree

Hubertj wrote: »

And what is the alternative? Not borrow the money? Grow it? All misery with you. Are you still hurting from the last recession? Get on with your life.

Cuts are the alternative. They will have to happen.

FG should never have increased public spending by 13billion since 2016.

The opposition shouldn't have calling for less spending not more.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you jumped into a conversation and stated lashing out allegations about snubs to the constitution etc etc .

Oh...is the thread exclusive to 2 posters
Please forgive me..
You still don't like be called wrong

Whenever you are ready...was the poster I challenged right to say that 'FG are the only party willing to lead' by virtue of the fact that they are 'in government' or is it the case that they are duty bound to fulfill executive roles because that is what the constitution says should happen when there is (wait for it again....) NO government formed?

It is a simple, yes, he was right or no, he was wrong.

Irrelevant deflection from what I pointed out to you
ie that a government with just fine Gael in it is correctly described as a Fine Gael government

The attached post screengrab is what I replied to by the way and not what you are saying I'm commenting on
You do a lot of that type of deflection in some attempt to hide what you were caught out on

So in summary
You can't deny that the constitution describes this government by one word only and that is government
You can't deny that you said earlier that it's not a government (in flagrant contradiction to the constitution)
And you're having trouble with the fact that because the government in its entirety is made up of Fine Gael,its also a Fine Gael government

Theres no disagreement on the caretaker capacity

smurgen wrote: »

No more I'm upset we don't have a competent leader willing to make quick decisions for the good of the people instead of Leo the 5th.

Right, so you are using a comparison between NZ and Ireland to come to the conclusion that because NZ are faring well, Ireland must be doing something wrong... and its all Leo's fault I presume. Is that your naive logic at play?

..but you do know that NZ doesn't share a land border with another country?
..you do know that NZ was next to nowhere near any major outbreaks, like Italy or Spain?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said FG were 'in government'.

I mentioned the caretaker government in the previous post you quoted but removed it. I wonder why.

A caretaker government is still government as per the Constitution.

Don't like FG in government, then lobby the other 125 TD's to get them out.

You used an incorrect phrase.

You need to read the Constitution.

efanton wrote: »

If it was that simple, why have FF or FG failed to form a government after 9 weeks of trying?

Because FF and FG alone do not have the numbers. I thought that would be obvious.

FG do not care how long it takes to form a government, in fact the longer it takes the better, but they will not publicly admit that. It suit them perfectly to drag out government formation for as long as it is possible to do so.

Not really, but at least they are trying. They are one party out of 9. You seem oddly obsessed with them.

The reality is that we are looking at another election.

Maybe, maybe not.

I just cant see it being at all possible to put a program for government together that delivers the Green party's demands and also be supported by FF and FG party members. Eamonn Ryan might be prepared to compromise, but it will only take 30% of the Green party membership to reject any vote for a coalition and to shoot those compromises down in flames.

What is the saying, politics is about the art of the possible? Yes, it looks unlikely but then will another election really fix anything?

Majority governments are a thing of the past, so parties, especially smaller parties will have to get used to coalition and compromise.

Anyway another election may well suit FG. Win-win for them.

markodaly wrote: »

I mentioned the caretaker government in the previous post you quoted but removed it. I wonder why.

A caretaker government is still government as per the Constitution.

Don't like FG in government, then lobby the other 125 TD's to get them out.

You need to read the Constitution.

You can read the constitution until the cows come home, it is how the constitution is interpreted.
it is a 'caretaker' government which is not a normal government. Fact.

And your other bogus contention that 'FG are the only party willing to lead'? Still sticking to that, because they have no choice but to lead. Nobody else can do it, constitutionally.
FG's 'choice' was to go into opposition...the very reason this thread was started.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No-one said it was a junta

Constitutionally it is a 'caretaker' government.

Simple point and wholly precise. This is distinct from an elected government given that there are unelected TD's fulfilling caretaker roles as ministers.
That in itself makes it worthy of distinction from 'normal government'.

You do know even in 'normal' situations one can have ministers who are not elected TD's?

There is nothing, zero, nada in the constitution limiting the executive powers of this government than a normal government. The only difference at the moment is that we do not have a Seanad.

You really really need to read the Constitution Francie.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can read the constitution until the cows come home, it is how the constitution is interpreted.

Great, now you are passing yourself off as a high-court judge!

LOL. Stop digging Francie, you will end up in NZ at this rate.

Unless you have some jurisprudence of case law in Ireland to back up anything you are saying, you are just making it up as you go.

markodaly wrote: »

You do know even in 'normal' situations one can have ministers who are not elected TD's?

There is nothing, zero, nada in the constitution limiting the executive powers of this government than a normal government. The only difference at the moment is that we do not have a Seanad.

You really really need to read the Constitution Francie.

Appointment of the Taoiseach's Seanad nominees is an executive power...a 'caretaker' Taoiseach cannot do that. (Governed by Article 18.3
of the Constitution) Resignation is an executive power and the 'caretaker' government as a whole cannot do that. (Article 28.8
to 28.12)
The other significant abnormality/difference is that the caretaker government does not set the Order Of Business, the House does.

Portraying this set-up as a normal government is wrong therefore. It isn't.

And you STILL haven't dealt with this bit of your post:

'FG are the only party willing to lead'.

You need to read the challenge to that...FG HAVE to lead, they have NO choice and nobody else can do it, by order of the constitution you claim to know.
Do you now agree that this is the case?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

it is a 'caretaker' government which is not a normal government. Fact.
.

Well at least what you say now,pulled out of you like a tooth yesterday evening is more accurate than what you tried to get away with saying yesterday, that it isn't a government at all
But don't worry, I won't be insisting that you refer to it as a Fine Gael government when in fact, defacto,that's exactly what it is,because all its members are Fine Gael
Anyway, that's a power constitutionally I don't have

By the way,for the avoidance of doubt, this government has full executive authority according to the constitution, untill such time as this new Dáil votes in a Taoiseach
The only power it doesn't have is to pass legislation but then neither has the Dáil until it agrees a Taoiseach that can appoint the remaining senators
In that sense,the Dáil is also not the norm

Mortelaro wrote: »

Well at least what you say now,pulled out of you like a tooth yesterday evening is more accurate than what you tried to get away with saying yesterday, that it isn't a government at all
But don't worry, I won't be insisting that you refer to it as a Fine Gael government when in fact, defacto,that's exactly what it is,because all its members are Fine Gael
Anyway, that's a power constitutionally I don't have

By the way,for the avoidance of doubt, this government has full executive authority according to the constitution, untill such time as this new Dáil votes in a Taoiseach
The only power it doesn't have is to pass legislation but then neither has the Dáil until it agrees a Taoiseach that can appoint the remaining senators
In that sense,the Dáil is also not the norm

There is no government there is a caretaker government.
Why is there a caretaker government....BECAUSE it is required by the constitution UNTIL a 'government' is capable of being formed.
Two different things...recognised and provided for by our constitution.
Sorry to disappoint you.

We don't have an agreed 'Convention' on how caretaker governments can or should operate like other countries so the whole realm of 'executive power' and 'democratic legitimacy' is largely untested.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no government there is a caretaker government.
Why is there a caretaker government....BECAUSE it is required by the constitution UNTIL a 'government' is capable of being formed.
Two different things...recognised and provided for by our constitution.
Sorry to disappoint you.

We don't have an agreed 'Convention' on how caretaker governments can or should operate like other countries so the whole realm of 'executive power' and 'democratic legitimacy' is largely untested.

You can write that as often as you want but it does not change what the constitution calls our current administration
It is the government at the moment with full executive power, according to the constitution like it or lump it
Everything else is your opinion

If you wish to change that,convince the new government to hold a referendum
Its that simple,like it or lump it

Mortelaro wrote: »

You can write that as often as you want but it does not change what the constitution calls our current administration
It is the government at the moment with full executive power, according to the constitution like it or lump it
Everything else is your opinion

If you wish to change that,convince the new government to hold a referendum
Its that simple,like it or lump it

Done with this...you clearly do not want to go near the actual point I made.
that says more than enough.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Done with this...you clearly do not want to go near the actual point I made.
that says more than enough.

You obviously don't like the fact I presented,merely to clarify that in the constitution ,this government is the government with full executive authority untill a new Taoiseach is elected, theres no mention of caretaker
Theres certainly no basis for saying it's not the government ,like you did yesterday
Caretaker is a descriptive term outside of the constitution, explanatory in nature
Thats fine
We are clear now

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Portraying this set-up as a normal government is wrong therefore. It isn't.

I never said it was normal, but it is a government, as per the constitution. YOu are just arguing over semantics.

You need to read the challenge to that...FG HAVE to lead, they have NO choice and nobody else can do it, by order of the constitution you claim to know.
Do you now agree that this is the case?

I dont understand your point. A few posts ago, you were giving out about FG taking power as if there is some coup. Now there is a u-turn and you state that FG have to lead.

Regardless, as I keep saying, if you do not like what FG are doing, the other 125 TD's can get rid of them in vote fell swoop.

markodaly wrote: »

I never said it was normal, but it is a government, as per the constitution. YOu are just arguing over semantics.

I dont understand your point. A few posts ago, you were giving out about FG taking power as if there is some coup. Now there is a u-turn and you state that FG have to lead.

Regardless, as I keep saying, if you do not like what FG are doing, the other 125 TD's can get rid of them in vote fell swoop.

You said that FG are the 'only party 'willing' to lead'.

That is completely wrong in fact. The only party after the election who said they would be happy to go into opposition was FG.
The only reason they are leading now is because they are constitutionally mandated to do it and nobody else can.

Your statement was wholly wrong therefore.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said that FG are the 'only party 'willing' to lead'.

Not completely wrong for 4 reasons
1.They haven't expressed an unwillingness to do the care taking job properly
They do have the prerogative to sit on their hands doing nothing drawing their salaries
That's not what they want to do or are doing
2.Whilst coming third,they were willing to go into opposition but reserved the possibility of involvement with FF as a last resort
3.most other parties in the Dáil have at various stages ruled out FG
4.The last resort situation has arrived

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said that FG are the 'only party 'willing' to lead'.

That is completely wrong in fact. The only party after the election who said they would be happy to go into opposition was FG.
The only reason they are leading now is because they are constitutionally mandated to do it and nobody else can.

Your statement was wholly wrong therefore.

They were willing to hand over the reins to the other parties. The other parties didn’t want the poisoned chalice, so FG stepped up, are doing a great job of steering us through an unprecedented crisis and are willing to work with others, even the old enemy, all for the good of the country.

Deleted User wrote: »

They were willing to hand over the reins to the other parties. The other parties didn’t want the poisoned chalice, so FG stepped up, are doing a great job of steering us through an unprecedented crisis and are willing to work with others, even the old enemy, all for the good of the country.

That remains to be seen of course.

And it doesn't prove the theory, wrongly expressed that 'FG are the only party willing to lead'.

Fine Gael HAVE to lead..goodly, badly or greatly.
You can perform as many party political broadcasts as you like, it doesn't get away from that truth.

It is also much too early to judge how well they have done overall...they have certainly gotten some things right and some other things wrong.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And it doesn't prove the theory, wrongly expressed that 'FG are the only party willing to lead'.

.

You haven't disproved that either
You've just given an opinion as has Mark Daly
At least anyway, they are leading and at least they have credible albeit last resort options to explore for the Dáil to elect a new government
The only options other parties had,weren't credible
Current negotiations at least are but of course could fail
Hopefully not

RandomViewer

FF councillors have written to MM saying they do not a prove of FG our the Vegetables, Grassroots threatenening to leave party, expect similar from FG councillors, their rural supporters will not want Veggies either

James Brown

Mortelaro wrote: »

Not completely wrong for 4 reasons
1.They haven't expressed an unwillingness to do the care taking job properly
They do have the prerogative to sit on their hands doing nothing drawing their salaries
That's not what they want to do or are doing
2.Whilst coming third,they were willing to go into opposition but reserved the possibility of involvement with FF as a last resort
3.most other parties in the Dáil have at various stages ruled out FG
4.The last resort situation has arrived

They announced that they 'Relished' going into opposition. When approached by FF told FF on two occasions they were going into opposition. Then seem to have changed their mind. This is not a last resort, it's a complete change of tack, which is their right to do of course.
I believe Varadkar and others with the same personality are likely looking to hang on but IMO would slink off into the private world, (AKA being looked after by those they currently look after) if in opposition.

Deleted User wrote: »

They were willing to hand over the reins to the other parties. The other parties didn’t want the poisoned chalice, so FG stepped up, are doing a great job of steering us through an unprecedented crisis and are willing to work with others, even the old enemy, all for the good of the country.

As has been pointed out at great lengths, they are constitutionally bound to remain as a caretaker government until another is formed. They are doing exactly what every other party and politician has done over the last months, that is talking to see if a deal for government can be worked out.
'willing' had nothing to do with it. 'stepping up' has nothing to do with it.
They aren't getting in the way of the health professionals advice, mostly, and are true to form, working with FF to keep SF out which is more important than any family rivalry with FF or any 'stability' for that matter.

Bowie wrote: »

They announced that they 'Relished' going into opposition. When approached by FF told FF on two occasions they were going into opposition. Then seem to have changed their mind. This is not a last resort, it's a complete change of tack, which is their right to do of course.

When all other attempts at government formation are exhausted, then,we are at a last resort which is what FG told their voters pre election they'd explore and only at that point
So colour it up whatever way you like you are factually wrong again

As has been pointed out at great lengths, they are constitutionally bound to remain as a caretaker government until another is formed. They are doing exactly what every other party and politician has done over the last months, that is talking to see if a deal for government can be worked out.
'willing' had nothing to do with it. 'stepping up' has nothing to do with it.
They aren't getting in the way of the health professionals advice, mostly, and are true to form, working with FF to keep SF out which is more important than any family rivalry with FF or any 'stability' for that matter.

That of course is your opinion
Regarding Sinn Féin,unfortunately for them,they had/have realistically 'no way in' as too many elected T.D's and by extension a majority of the public don't trust them

Mortelaro wrote: »

That of course is your opinion
Regarding Sinn Féin,unfortunately for them,they had/have realistically 'no way in' as too many elected T.D's and by extension a majority of the public don't trust them

What does getting 20% of the vote say about how the other 80% of the electorate views you?
Maybe the other 80% think you are tired being trustworthy and competent and need a wee holiday?