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Child Item

If Work From Home becomes a thing...

bilbot79

I'd be tempted to buy a little apartment in the Canaries and spend my winters there, in fact I'd probably

1/ Sell my Dublin gaff

2/ By a cheaper Irish gaff in the countryside

3/ Buy a place in the Canaries

4/ Buy another place somewhere in Europe, Hvar or somewhere like that

And just spend weeks and months in each place.

How would the rest of you exploit work from home if you had it permanently?

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snotboogie

beauf wrote: »

All these things were already viable, they've been there for decades.

Yes, in cities and as we have urbanised the quality and variety of these services has increased. Look at Dublin Airport in 1970 compared to today, or the hospital offering in Cork City in 1970 vs today. If we deurbanize these services will suffer or cease to exist.

beauf

All these things were already viable, they've been there for decades.

snotboogie

beauf wrote: »

I don't agree with your prism.

But as services and opportunities are stripped from the rural locations and concentrated on urban centers as a short sighted cost cutting strategy and economic policy it causes urbanization. However this will cause stress, and bottlenecks in concentrated areas.

It causes stresses but there are massive economies of scale too. Vital services like universities, hospitals and airports need a large population base to make them viable. Services like broadband, gas, electricity, post and transport are all far cheaper as you up population density. The social benefits are huge too, you can have concerts, sports teams, good restaurants, shopping and large communities for diverse and unique interests. These are not possible on any scale outside of large urban areas. In rural areas these services tend to be far more generic, that's if they are available at all. Also, cities are robust. If we are all working from our McMansions with little to no physical contact with our employers, what's stopping the replacment of roles to Manila or Mexico or Nigeria?

beauf

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I am not saying that everyone is suited to the 9-5 environment, but most office environments are aligned to this model. If the person has 'conformed' to this model in the office, it will be a big jump for some to accommodate remote working and full schedule flexibility. For some, it would be a step too far.

I would argue that creative people are never suited to an office environment in the first place. That said, if you consider journalists as creative, they have to work off deadlines the same way the rest of us do, whereas a book author is a different matter.

The one thing I have learned over the years of working remotely, its not about you think or the effort you put in, its about the perception as to what you do and when you do it. As long as those around you, including your boss, believe you are doing a better job remotely than in the office, questions are rarely asked. If their perception is the opposite, that's when the issues arise.

I know you weren't, and I agree with all of that.

But we were verging on a booted and suited 9-5 good, everything else bad route.

DSN

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

That's not a "neat little plan" it is quite the juggling act if you d bothered to read it. And I haven't said it could be done full time with no child care.
And no where have I generalised and said there is free child care on tap from grand parents.

Of course it wouldn't work for everyone.

The question was how would wfh reduce child care costs and I outlined a particularly difficult situation to start with. Parents with three kids in 2nd class upwards would find it far easier as they will have them in school 5 1/2 hours .

You re the one who took my EXAMPLES as a result for everyone.
Nurses teachers gardai retail staff, plumbers, electricians, lab technicians, painters, cannot work from home in a practical way.. I didn't state that originally as I assumed most people could understand what an example was.
You obviously don't .
It's not fantasy at all.

For a lot of people it won't be easy and will require juggling and people are making those sacrifices as it is saving them money and hassle of getting childcare .

Most of the situation s I'm aware of its one of the couple who work from home.

People make all sorts of sacrifices, garda couples who barely see each other because they work opposite shifts to all them to care for their children- try doing something like that when your on a 24 hour roster shift work .

Then juggling a 9-5 job with childcare becomes a doddle

Sorry it's a fantasy work would allow you wfm & juggling kids/homework/kids bickering/full days when school shut under normal circumstances. I wfm all the time but still need childcare til 5th/6th. It will become more accepted though & it has its flexibility benefits long as people don't take advantage & double job. (Which is what it is & people have tried it it doesn't bode well for either party!)

jrosen

Having the work from home option will be hugely beneficial for a lot of people. Less commute, more time at home. Could even be better for local business in smaller communities.

Cost of travel.

My husbands company did a survey for who would come back to the office when they can re-open. It was less than 10%.

gnf_ireland

krissovo wrote: »

I have been based at home for nearly 9 years now and it really is great for a work / life balance. After a couple of years we sold up in Dublin and bought the old family farm in North Cork and also bought an apartment in southern Spain. It was fantastic before kids started school as we could move between the two homes out of season fairly cheaply and rent the apartment in season. Once kids started school we spent most their holidays in Spain but the last few years its getting expensive to fly to Marbella during the holidays. Work did not care as long as I was near an airport with easy travel to my European customer base. Based in Spain made my corporate travel at least 1/3 cheaper due to access to cheap flights.

The challenges I found were:
Unreliable broadband, I had to have multiple providers and 3g mobile options to remain productive.
Income tax residency can be an issue, it was also a positive one year when I did not qualify for tax residency anywhere so did not pay income tax.
Home maintenance is a pain and double bills
Airfares have been increasing significantly especially for families
After a while the novelty wears off and kids want to stay with friends

I think you hit the nail on the head there, with the idea of remote working has to suit the stage of life you are in and your personal circumstances. This is also very much were flexibility comes into the equation as well.

When I was in my 20's I spent the guts of a decade travelling the world, both as an employee of a multi-national company and then as an independent consultant for longer spells. It was fantastic and there is very little I would change about that time, even the post 9-11 airport experiences. Now I am in my early 40's, I really could not think of anything worse getting on flights every second week and living out of suitcases. Give me another decade until the girls are in their teenage years and I might welcome the break again

The biggest problem with something new is it becomes the norm and is no longer the attraction it once was and you want something different. That said, I firmly believe that remote working (with reliable broadband) will be a major catalyst to improve work/life balance, assist tackling climate change and also the housing crises in our urban centres, as well as the saviour of rural Ireland.

gnf_ireland

beauf wrote: »

Not everyone works well in a 9-5 environment.
They work in bursts, and often at night. Especially creative people.

There is a different between that and slacking off.

I am not saying that everyone is suited to the 9-5 environment, but most office environments are aligned to this model. If the person has 'conformed' to this model in the office, it will be a big jump for some to accommodate remote working and full schedule flexibility. For some, it would be a step too far.

I would argue that creative people are never suited to an office environment in the first place. That said, if you consider journalists as creative, they have to work off deadlines the same way the rest of us do, whereas a book author is a different matter.

The one thing I have learned over the years of working remotely, its not about you think or the effort you put in, its about the perception as to what you do and when you do it. As long as those around you, including your boss, believe you are doing a better job remotely than in the office, questions are rarely asked. If their perception is the opposite, that's when the issues arise.

gnf_ireland

gladerunner wrote: »

Where i work in the civil service, they have opened up the systems to allow us to work over a 7 day period ( to enable childcare responsibilities and other arrangements outside of work)
This flexibility would allow me to work more hours, no commute ( which was an hour each way ), I could work early in the morning and during school time, and work even an additional 2/3 hours in the evening if required. Thus fulfilling my work and childcare requirements.

Also, the positive effects on the environment with less cars on the road. I see it as a win win.

A good manager doesnt need to see you in the office to know you are doing a good job

I think it does really depend on the role and the level of collaborative versus independent work that someone does. If the level of collaboration is high, that level of flexibility can be tough to achieve - but if its independent working then its pretty easy to be flexible with schedules.

If someone is customer facing (internal or external customers), for example a support type role, this flexible is difficult to accommodate, whereas if someone needs to have task x done by date y, its a different matter.

gnf_ireland

beauf wrote: »

Another problem is a lot of managers and places don't measure productivity or keep metrics.
They don't have "tools" to manage. They literally have to see people in the office, or talk to them face to face to manage things. So they are unable to function if they can't do those things.

100% agree with this. I think project managers in particular struggle with remote working as they don't have their metrics to quantify progress. I thought it was PMI 101 that effort does not always equal results.

Ultimately it is down to trust, control and metrics and when those are lost, some people feel powerless and want the status quo to return. The longer it goes on, the further away the status quo will become

gnf_ireland

Cyrus wrote: »

what kind of career will someone have if they cant be responsible for themselves and their own time

You would be absolutely amazed. So many people and company cultures have little respect for time management. 90% of the meetings I attend fail to start or end on time, and trying to get people to vacate a meeting room on time can be close to impossible. Its all time management, or lack there of !

This can be an issue for people when they get 'engrossed' in something and forget the world about them. It can be both a positive and negative trait, depending on the role and company !

krissovo

I have been based at home for nearly 9 years now and it really is great for a work / life balance. After a couple of years we sold up in Dublin and bought the old family farm in North Cork and also bought an apartment in southern Spain. It was fantastic before kids started school as we could move between the two homes out of season fairly cheaply and rent the apartment in season. Once kids started school we spent most their holidays in Spain but the last few years its getting expensive to fly to Marbella during the holidays. Work did not care as long as I was near an airport with easy travel to my European customer base. Based in Spain made my corporate travel at least 1/3 cheaper due to access to cheap flights.

The challenges I found were:
Unreliable broadband, I had to have multiple providers and 3g mobile options to remain productive.
Income tax residency can be an issue, it was also a positive one year when I did not qualify for tax residency anywhere so did not pay income tax.
Home maintenance is a pain and double bills
Airfares have been increasing significantly especially for families
After a while the novelty wears off and kids want to stay with friends

[Deleted User]

jester77 wrote: »

My office just posted their list of rules for when returning. Have to register when you will be in the office, cannot be at the same time as the person beside you and opposite you, company will provide a mask and it must me worn when not at desk, now required to log in when arriving at work, no meetings unless super urgent, and then only 2 people allowed with distance, meeting room must be aired for 1 hour afterwards, no beer deliveries allowed, not allowed to move around building unless urgent and it must be logged, no more than 2 people in common areas at a time.

Which kinda takes a lot of the social interaction out of working in an office - not much point in going back for that.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

anyone who cant manage their own time, unless they have founded the company, is unlikely to find themselves with an assistant to manage their schedule.

Can't say thats been my experience.

One of the problems with working in the cloud and remote working, is those, especially managers, who do not know how to use a computer, are now helpless. They can't turn around and ask someone to send an email for them etc. Work a calendar, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyV0IVItlM4

jrosen

It has the potential to offer people a better work life balance. The thousands of people commuting every day could be halved. Just the impact of that alone, more people shopping locally because they are around more. It could be really beneficial to smaller communities.

Companies could reduce their overheads by needing less office space. Again a plus for the business itself.

I cant wfh, my husband has always had the option, he does maybe a day a week. He said he might do a second day. He enjoys the office space.

Cyrus

beauf wrote: »

That's why some people don't work well in isolation, but work well in a team. Why they need assistants to manage schedules and such. Or just structure.

All sorts of people. Though if you work in a specialized area people will be very similar.

anyone who cant manage their own time, unless they have founded the company, is unlikely to find themselves with an assistant to manage their schedule.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

what kind of career will someone have if they cant be responsible for themselves and their own time

That's why some people don't work well in isolation, but work well in a team. Why they need assistants to manage schedules and such. Or just structure.

All sorts of people. Though if you work in a specialized area people will be very similar.

beauf

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I....When they are in the office, the structure is there and they can work within that easier. Without that structure they hit the snooze button a few times too often in the morning, go for a coffee at 11am, meet someone and stay an hour etc, and can end up working until 10pm trying to catch up, if they are that way inclined. We all know people who cannot manage their own time....

Not everyone works well in a 9-5 environment.
They work in bursts, and often at night. Especially creative people.

There is a different between that and slacking off.

gladerunner

If working at home becomes a thing, it will offer so much more flexibility.
Less petrol and parking costs will be like a raise, add less lotto money, birthday money, leaving money and lunches out. All nice of course, but not a necessity.

Where i work in the civil service, they have opened up the systems to allow us to work over a 7 day period ( to enable childcare responsibilities and other arrangements outside of work)
This flexibility would allow me to work more hours, no commute ( which was an hour each way ), I could work early in the morning and during school time, and work even an additional 2/3 hours in the evening if required. Thus fulfilling my work and childcare requirements.

Don't forget, creches are grand places, but they are not the ideal scenario for small children, especially ones already tired after a normal school day. I cant imagine parents wanting to go back readily to the madness before the Pandemic.

Also, the positive effects on the environment with less cars on the road. I see it as a win win.

A good manager doesnt need to see you in the office to know you are doing a good job

Kevhog1988

Im a single dad wfh at the moment with my son whos 8 and my 2 parents. I print his school stuff the night before and get everything ready so he knows what hes doing during the day. I then do my normal work day and check his stuff as we get through the day. Seems to work well so far but have to say my parents are a great help between 3 and my finish time at 5.30pm. I would gladly work from home constantly and have him at home also with me doing his school drops etc. I think it would be fairly simple to get a routine to do everything and possible take turns with a neighbour to do the school run.

beauf

Another problem is a lot of managers and places don't measure productivity or keep metrics.
They don't have "tools" to manage. They literally have to see people in the office, or talk to them face to face to manage things. So they are unable to function if they can't do those things.

beauf

snotboogie wrote: »

Urbanization since 1970 is arguably the most notable trend in human activity. Everything is being viewed through the prism of a family with parents in their mid 30's to mid 50's. College students will still need to attend a college, upon graduating will the 20 somethings be happy to move to a village in rural Ireland and work remotely? As people hit their 60' they will want to be closer to medical facilities and as they get less mobile the McMansion which requires a 5 mile drive to the nearest Aldi and a 20 mile drive to the nearest GP will be a lot less appealing.

I don't agree with your prism.

But as services and opportunities are stripped from the rural locations and concentrated on urban centers as a short sighted cost cutting strategy and economic policy it causes urbanization. However this will cause stress, and bottlenecks in concentrated areas.

Cyrus

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Its not that they don't care about their career per se, its more they struggle with that level of responsibility to manage their own time properly.

what kind of career will someone have if they cant be responsible for themselves and their own time

gnf_ireland

Cyrus wrote: »

My general feeling is that people who care about their career will be fine, people who just see it as a job will be more likely to take the mick. its the same in the office environment as well but easier to control.

I agree to a point. There are some people who are just terrible working without structure, and many people get overly distracted when working from home. Its not that they don't care about their career per se, its more they struggle with that level of responsibility to manage their own time properly.

When they are in the office, the structure is there and they can work within that easier. Without that structure they hit the snooze button a few times too often in the morning, go for a coffee at 11am, meet someone and stay an hour etc, and can end up working until 10pm trying to catch up, if they are that way inclined. We all know people who cannot manage their own time.

But yes, on top of those you have the group that simply don't care and they will only do the bare minimum required in the office, and much less than that in a remote environment.

Gavin "shels"

I believe in my current role, people who work remotely abroad are on contractor contracts and are paid at the local salary rates not Irish rates.

My previous manager used to live down the country, would come to the office once a week, sometimes twice.

Personally I used to work at home maybe twice a month, longest previous to this was a week while our office renovations. Wouldn't be a huge fan of 100% working from home but I have had a proper setup since my college days, desk, proper office chair (which I've let my fiancee use until our one on order arrives), dual monitors, etc... My own job have been setup from working at home since long before I started there over 2 years ago so always prepared - our office is usually empty on a Friday. We've several city centre offices, I can't see us keeping them all.

Cyrus

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Yes, it was becoming a thing in a lot of work places, especially when its an employees market and companies have to be flexible. Its a much bigger challenge during a recession when employers tend to hold the balance of power.

Some companies (and managers) are better than others. Its all down to trust really and I have known as many employees to break that during working from home as managers who fail to understand it.

it all boils down to trust, in my own situation i trust all the mangers that report to me totally, and in reality they had ended up working more rather than less.

Some of them have teams of more experienced / better paid people reporting to them, again they have been great, but some of them have a higher proportion of staff in the 30-40k bracket and unfortunately some of them arent really pulling their weight, disappearing throughout the day, taking an age to respond on IM, not responding to queries from external parties.

That for us is the issue, as it all falls back on their manager to resolve which is unfair on him.

My general feeling is that people who care about their career will be fine, people who just see it as a job will be more likely to take the mick. its the same in the office environment as well but easier to control.

gnf_ireland

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Know a partner in a major accountancy practice who told me last year that working at least part time from home was something most accountants in Dublin now expect if they are moving to a new job. She said it is hard enough to recruit them anyway, so not offering working from home part time wasn’t really an option.
Surely working from home is already a thing?

Yes, it was becoming a thing in a lot of work places, especially when its an employees market and companies have to be flexible. Its a much bigger challenge during a recession when employers tend to hold the balance of power.

Some companies (and managers) are better than others. Its all down to trust really and I have known as many employees to break that during working from home as managers who fail to understand it.

gnf_ireland

beauf wrote: »

I don't think they care. They don't get it. Never will.

Company culture will become more important in the interview process over time. If someone earns 5k a year less, but has the opportunity to live further away and avoid the stresses of life in an urban setting (including house prices & commuting time), it will become important.

Some will never get it - that I understand. Some don't get it now, never mind when things get back to the new normal

gnf_ireland

I am lucky enough to be in a job that has a relative amount of flexibility, and I would have tended to spend around 2 days a week working at home most weeks for the last decade. Because of this, I am also lucky enough to have an office in the house, and is fully kitted out to support working from home, complete with monitors, printer etc. I knew I was likely to have a lot more working from home (nature of the project I am working on) back in December, so I bought myself a jabra spreaker to use with the likes of teams, webex and zoom, making video calls much easier.

But our current environment is not normal working from home. Most people are not set-up for it, and many people have children at home trying to mind/home school them while doing a day job. Lots are trying to juggle lots right now, and also many getting serious cabin fever at this point. Peoples work patterns have had to change to accommodate their situations, and while most employers have been accommodating, that wont last for ever. I have also found out over the years, 100% remote is very very difficult both socially but also you lose contact with your colleagues and becomes a case of out of sight/out of mind. And of course it really depends on the industry you work in and the role you do in it

The idea that one poster had about collecting kids from school multiple times, feeding them lunch etc while working from home would require serious flexibility and way beyond anything most people could expect to have, especially on a regular basis. It would require a role that is very output orientated and the ability to work in a very low touch environment (ie no calls or instant messages). I have found I was able to do this, on occasion, when by day was a bit freer than normal, but on the whole it was not practical. The bigger challenge was to be able to guarantee, every Wednesday (for example), I would be able to do pick-up and I could be relied upon. 90% of the time it would have been fine, but the 10% would make it very difficult.

I do think over time, a ~40% onsite/~60% offsite option will become more common place, but employers will end up putting restrictions on the home work environment - i.e. must have a dedicated work space that can be locked (for security purposes). But its likely it will come with expectations around response times for instance messages (i.e. you are online and available during the working day).

It will be interesting to see how it does work, and the impact on people's well-being also. It has positives and negatives, and its easy to focus on the positives in these cases. But one thing it should assist with is the migration of people from urban areas where housing demand is out of control and into more rural settings. It would be a bizarre twist of faith if covid-19 ends up being the savior for rural Ireland !

beauf

hmmm wrote: »

...When it's over and we have the opportunity to go back to "normal", I expect many of the more traditional managers to demand everyone goes back to the office. Fine, but that will impact on their ability to retain and recruit new staff.
....

I don't think they care. They don't get it. Never will.