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CHAdeMO v CCS

Stealthirl

Originally posted as a reply but thought it was worth it's own thread

On the Chademo v CCS issue
Currently there are

Chademo
Nissan EVs registered here (leaf/ENV) - 3,239
The triplets (Mitsubishi I-MIEV/Peugeot Ion/Citroën C-Zero) - 18
Total = 3,257 (could not find any 1st gen soul EVs oddly

)

CCS
Hyundai Kona - 1,084
Hyundai Ioniq - 460
E-Golf - 338
BMW i3 - 246
Kia Niro - 72
Kia e-Soul - 62
Audi e-tron - 44
Jaguar I-Pace - 42
Mercedes-Benz EQC - 4
Total = 2,352

Tesla
Model S - 184
Model 3 - 168 CCS
Model X - 81
Total = 433

Type2 only
Zoe 465

Could not find any Mercedes-Benz B class or Smart EV numbers

Left out the Twizzy as it's only 3pin

Thats a total of 6,507 with Chademo representing just over 50% and CCS just over 36%
Yes Chademo is in decline but with the Leaf being so popular it will be a long time before it's gone as there's no indication it would switch to CCS

I don't think i left any BEV's out and my sums are right but open to correction.

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Soarer

Basically, whichever standard the porn industry goes with will win out.

Kramer

CHAdeMO v3.0 is coming & poised to topple CCS :eek:.

500kW (maximum current 600A)
Liquid-cooling technology
Smaller diameter cable
Locking/unlocking mechanism from the connector

And, of course, bidirectional :cool:.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/

KCross

Kramer wrote: »

CHAdeMO v3.0 is coming & poised to topple CCS :eek:.

500kW (maximum current 600A)
Liquid-cooling technology
Smaller diameter cable
Locking/unlocking mechanism from the connector

And, of course, bidirectional :cool:.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/chademo-and-china-release-new-ev-quick-charging-standard-in-a-bid-to-leapfrog-the-industry/

I dont agree with his assessment of "... we could see a change to the balance of EV charging protocols"

It wont change anything really for Europe.

CCS is going to dominate here once VAG start delivering and CHAdeMO will dominate in asia.
Both will coexist and be further improved and adopted. Neither will "win out", causing the other to die... CCS for europe, CHAdeMO for asia... thats all.

slave1

And Tesla Model S still the only car to be able to use the big 3 chargers, Tesla/CCS/Chademo

ELM327

Absolutely pointless and irrelevant outside of Asia anyway.
Additionally, if it's limited to 600a (the tesla model 3 peaks at 666a already) it is relying on 833.33v batteries to achieve 500kW. Nonsense.
Also, it's still requiring an AC and a DC separate socket on the car.

Kramer

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128000_chademo-3-0-fast-charging-for-evs-revealed-might-be-backward-compatible-with-ccs

I dunno, they say it might be backwards compatible with CCS & has a lot going for it.
In fairness, when the lads there in China get involved, they have the clout to quickly spread this throughout the world.

With China's support, v3 could go viral

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

In fairness, when the lads there in China get involved, they have the clout to quickly spread this throughout the world.

Nah, it doesn't work like that. They have long been used to adapting whatever product they are selling to the country they are selling it to. They have no problem making the same cheap electric appliance with 5 different AC plugs for the US, europe, UK, etc.

CCS is the standard in Europe

Even the likes of Tesla who very much do their own thing (which in many ways was superior), have seen this. If you can't beat them, join them. They're now adapting all their superchargers in Europe and all their cars to be able to use CCS

ELM327

This will not do anything to CCS in europe. CCS in NA is now more prevalent too.

Just give it up already. Move to CCS, make an adapter for old cars that can't charge on CCS (or give up on them) and we have one unified standard

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Nah, it doesn't work like that. They have long been used to adapting whatever product they are selling to the country they are selling it to. They have no problem making the same cheap electric appliance with 5 different AC plugs for the US, europe, UK, etc.

CCS is the standard in Europe

Even the likes of Tesla who very much do their own thing (which in many ways was superior), have seen this. If you can't beat them, join them. They're now adapting all their superchargers in Europe and all their cars to be able to use CCS

It's not a "can't beat", as the superchargers were better than other methods (and still are).

All that has changed is the following:
-Model 3 can charge natively with CCS as opposed to older cars that need adapter
-The modified type 2 dc could not deliver much more power, so they switched to a modified CCS plug. Interesting to note, their cars charging on a V3 SuC actually breaks the CCS protocol (like the type 2 DC broke the type 2 protocol). It exceeds the CCS2.0 limit of 500a.

beauf

Dardania wrote: »

Very revealing numbers, and yes deserves it's own thread. I didn't realise just how strong the leafs numbers were.

It's an interesting design decision by Renault with the zoe- do they take both ac and DC over that type 2 connector?

Where is the Zoe in those numbers?

liamog

beauf wrote: »

Where is the Zoe in those numbers?

It was in the Type2 section.

The choice of Renault to provide CCS with the facelift Zoe show's they've given up on FastAC. Do they even offer 43kW AC on the current model?

JohnC.

Are there figures for CCS installations? I was just looking at an article with global Chademo figures.
https://insideevs.com/news/423639/chademo-dc-charging-points-32000-chart

32,300 globally and nearly half of those are in Europe, with 14,400. That’s up 56% on last June (in Europe), while Japan almost stalled, only adding about 100 in a year.

liamog

JohnC. wrote: »

Are there figures for CCS installations? I was just looking at an article with global Chademo figures.
https://insideevs.com/news/423639/chademo-dc-charging-points-32000-chart

32,300 globally and nearly half of those are in Europe, with 14,400. That’s up 56% on last June (in Europe), while Japan almost stalled, only adding about 100 in a year.

As your link says, CCS enabled cars surpassed CHAdeMO in Europe last year. Every rapid charger in the EU is required to have at least a CCS connector. So for every CHAdeMO added at there will be at least one more CCS.

I don't think we'll see CHAdeMO die until cars start shipping with ChaoJi (CHAdeMO 3.0 and GB/T unified). At that point, I can't see a big investment in switching over the infrastructure for the new connector. The big techincal difference is the protocol. CHAdeMO using canbus for signalling whereas CCS uses HomePlug Green PHY. At some point I think there could be a move to allow ChaoJi over the CCS connector. May as well treat the physical connector like USB C and allow multiple communication protocols.

Lantus

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors. I'm thinking economy of scales and access to a standardised infrastructure.

Same goes for the WiFi 5g they are developing different systems and processes for.

It's the same old silly mistakes that will stifle and hold back development.

liamog

Lantus wrote: »

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors. I'm thinking economy of scales and access to a standardised infrastructure.

It has been standardised. At this point it's CCS in Europe, ChaoJi will be Japan/China. Other parts of the world will likely pick between those two. North America is a bit of a basket case, free market rules over standards, but it looks like CCS will win long term, but Tesla will still maintain their own connector.

KCross

Lantus wrote: »

It's a chronic shame that ev manufacturers didn't coordinate their efforts in this regard to standardise the connectors.

You can blame the Germans for that. The japanese had developed CHAdeMO and rolled it out back in 2010. Its a perfectly good standard with bi-directional capability an all.

A few years later when the Germans decided that they wanted to join the EV game they werent willing to pay the fees for CHAdeMO so created their own standard and obviously had the clout within the EU to make CCS the preferred standard going forward from there.

If they had rolled with CHAdeMO we wouldnt be having the conversation.

Water under the bridge now... CCS is where it's at for Europe.

ELM327

... and all cars would have to have massive fuel flaps with two ports underneath.
I like the neatness of CCS. Not to mention the more advance comms.

liamog

It's not as simple as the Germans wanting an alternative. Tepco were reluctant to release CHAdeMO as a standard, and the VDE + Ford and GM wanted a more elegant solution than two ports. I think part of the ChaoJi change is to allow a single socket with Type1/Type2 just like ccs.

Stealthirl

Nissan should have just switched the Leaf to CCS outside Japan when the L40 came out, one of several things they should have done with the L40

slave1

Easy to forget the Leaf is here since 2011 so why would Nissan change from CHAdeMO, was CCS even out there in 2011?

Oh, you said L40, sorry missed that, fair comment but I can’t see them moving anytime soon. With them aledgely reducing footprint in Europe all future Leafs could come from Japan.
At least they moved to Type 2 with the L40

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Easy to forget the Leaf is here since 2011 so why would Nissan change from CHAdeMO, was CCS even out there in 2011?

Oh, you said L40, sorry missed that, fair comment but I can’t see them moving anytime soon. With them aledgely reducing footprint in Europe all future Leafs could come from Japan.
At least they moved to Type 2 with the L40

That was due to regulations

liamog

unkel wrote: »

Really? CHAdeMO has been obsolete for many years. I know Leafs still sold well until last year, but I'd like to see some SIMI stats based figures to show this. I doubt it, if I'm honest.

And even if it were the case, why would anyone anywhere build any new infrastructure with tax payers money to cater for cars from ancient history? New infrastructure is for the cars of the future. Not for the cars of yesteryear.

I pulled data from beepbeep and added to a Google Sheet.

Looks like CHAdeMO is currently ahead by 1200 cars.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tB_jWJf5cZjw36mn9enQ_vU0JDuDe1s-ZE4xFyFwgkI/edit#gid=1699030877&range=M5

It's not perfect, I've treated all Zoe's as AC for the moment

Irishjg

... are there less than 11k EVs in the country ? Wow thought it would be far greater than that.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

I pulled data from beep and added to a Google Sheet.

Cheers!

liamog wrote:

Looks like CHAdeMO is currently ahead by 1200 cars.

Think I'm gonna win the bet with ELM327

5 months left...

Not that I'm happy. CCS is the EU standard and should be mandatory on all cars sold in the EEA.

liamog

For new cars its 3920 vs 3685 CHAdeMO, it's all those pesky obsolete imports corrupting our fleet

kanuseeme

Irishjg wrote: »

... are there less than 11k EVs in the country ? Wow thought it would be far greater than that.

Its very small number indeed for 10 years of sales, compare it to Toyota hybrids for only this year and last at 12k,

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Cheers!

Think I'm gonna win the bet with ELM327
5 months left...

Not that I'm happy. CCS is the EU standard and should be mandatory on all cars sold in the EEA.

What was the precise text of the bet?
I hope past ELM hasn't stung me with "overall" vs "new cars this year"

liamog

Well you are winning on new cars sold in Ireland, just those pesky brits ruining your plans.

Stealthirl

liamog wrote: »

Looks like CHAdeMO is currently ahead by 1200 cars.

As i said, plenty of life still left in CHAdeMO but Nissan should have switched to CCS with the 40's outside Japan [along with actual thermal battery management]

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

What was the precise text of the bet? I hope past ELM hasn't stung me with "overall" vs "new cars this year"

It was about total number of Chademo vs CCS cars by December 2020

You were saying CCS, I was saying Chademo.

I'll see if I can find the posts...