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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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deiseindublin

So, LV mentioning predictive grading on LLS was a good move, and it's all the media's fault?

bren2001

Rosita wrote: »

I take your point totally but Varadker still should have clarified it in his recent address. It is astonishing this didn't occur to the speech-writer. And Harris should not have gone on a solo run about LCs back in school in May if they want to avoid having to clarify things haven't changed.

Harris and Varadker are going around like two student public speakers at the moment, really seeming to be intoxicated with the non-adversarial spotlight and are far too prone to loose comments.

I've read a lot of posts from people saying it should have been in the roadmap or Leo should have addressed it directly. I don't agree with that sentiment at all, at the end of the day, it effects around 55k people. That's a really small number. Leos speech and the roadmap are to outline how things would progress for the majority. I don't see any justification for it being included in the document or in the speech. There was nothing on other examinations set to take place.

The amount of airspace this is getting is insane. This is not the governments doing, it's the medias and other political parties trying to make political gains.

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point in the minister continually announcing ‘the plan hasn’t changed’.

I take your point totally but Varadker still should have clarified it in his recent address. It is astonishing this didn't occur to the speech-writer. And Harris should not have gone on a solo run about LCs back in school in May if they want to avoid having to clarify things haven't changed.

Harris and Varadker are going around like two student public speakers at the moment, really seeming to be intoxicated with the non-adversarial spotlight and are far too prone to loose comments.

Mardy Bum

Rosita wrote: »

I'd imagine there's something in them more often than you think. Education correspondents in newspapers will have their contacts. The Connaught Telegraph reported that it was planned to close schools a week before it happened. So I'd imagine the national newspapers are even more on the ball.

There have been articles about the GAA being in discussion with the government to get the special dispensations for training and such like and this was flat out denied by the GAA's president.

There is one useful education correspondent and she works with RTE. The rest are mouth pieces.

JPF82

How much longer will Joe McHugh be Minister for Education anyway? Whenever we get a new Government agreed he might be gone. I feel so sorry for my Leaving Cert class at the moment. So much speculation in the media. It is hard for them to filter it out and stay focused.

deiseindublin

I am taking it at face value, but media are in a spin all over again with the pair of them.

Random sample

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's an awful pity nobody told LV that so, when he fueled the fire all over again by mentioning predicted grades on the bloody LLS.

Oh I agree. That shouldn’t have happened. And Simon Harris shouldn’t have been talking about getting schools back either. But I think we have to take the plan at face value for now, and leave it at that.

deiseindublin

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point in the minister continually announcing ‘the plan hasn’t changed’. Without speculation, the last piece of information we got was that a timetable would be made available in June.

It's an awful pity nobody told LV that so, when he fueled the fire all over again by mentioning predicted grades on the bloody LLS.

brighterspark

Recent announcements by political parties are the result of politicians at last listening to parents, students and many teachers.

Minister McHugh has stated that by waiting till early June to release the timetable he will have a better picture of the health situation. This is patent nonsense – no one knows what the situation will be on 29th of July - to quote Dr Holohan when asked about an American football match in late August (which I appreciate is not the same as exams!)

“All I would be doing is speculating in relation to where we would be at the end of August.”

Is this also not very likely to have been the advice Minister McHugh would have also received regarding August?
Is it fair or reasonable to ask our students to continue to study for an examination that might not happen? No matter what, the doubt and speculation will continue throughout the summer, new outbreaks are very likely hence the need for continued testing. How is anybody supposed to block that all out and continue on regardless?
Many commentaries I have read on students favouring predicted grades, seem to take the position that they are somehow looking ‘an easy way out’. I find this a very insulting way to regard our young adult’s legitimate opinion. What it reflects is students’ confidence in our professionalism and that their teachers do indeed know them well and should be able to fairly and accurately carry out this task.

What we can be certain of is that no one knows if it will be possible to have these exams so how can we expect our students to obtain the results that reflect academic ability - they are more likely to be a reflection of mental resilience and level of parental support !

km79

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point in the minister continually announcing ‘the plan hasn’t changed’. Without speculation, the last piece of information we got was that a timetable would be made available in June. That should be the end of it until June. We are a month off that now, and the minister is being put under pressure to make announcements. That’s not good for students.

Being under pressure by the health minister flippantly talking about schools reopening , his Taoiseach mentioning predictive grades and an education roadmap with no mention of the Leaving Cert
As has been said previously when I called for clarity it is an evolving situation
It has joe evolved into an almost untenable situation for teachers and parents of LC students. Mixed messages every side
He has to lay out how he sees the current LC proposal working as many people don’t think it will
He needs to do that sooner rather than later

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

Arguably it does serve them in the sense that it at least conveys the unease that is likely to be there among students at the sense of drift on the issue.

I don’t see the point in the minister continually announcing ‘the plan hasn’t changed’. Without speculation, the last piece of information we got was that a timetable would be made available in June. That should be the end of it until June. We are a month off that now, and the minister is being put under pressure to make announcements. That’s not good for students.

lulublue22

I think the whole situation is a shambles. As the parent of a relatively good LC student ( who was on target to achieve his first choice)I’m shocked and upset at how hard he is finding adjusting to online learning. I can’t fault the school they are doing their best. He is just really really struggling to stay motivated and on top of things. This type of learning doesn't seem to suit him at all in contrast to his less academic non exam year sibling who has taken to it like a duck to water.

I feel for this years LC . I’m not a fan of predicted grades at all but the thoughts of LC sitting the exams after nearly 4 months out of school doesn't fill me with confidence either. (Provided they go ahead.)

At the moment the choice seems to be between 2 equally problematic scenarios.

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

The speculation in the media is unfair and political. It doesn’t serve exam candidates at all.

Arguably it does serve them in the sense that it at least conveys the unease that is likely to be there among students at the sense of drift on the issue.

Rosita

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'd be mindful of articles related to the LC in the paper. They are mostly attempts to sell more papers. The industry is in a precarious situation.

I'd imagine there's something in them more often than you think. Education correspondents in newspapers will have their contacts. The Connaught Telegraph reported that it was planned to close schools a week before it happened. So I'd imagine the national newspapers are even more on the ball.

Rosita

Millionaire only not wrote: »

We are quiet aware of your qualifications, who am I to question your judgement.
What was u said yesterday,
An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

Let the people here make up there own mind on the attitude of the examiner’s answers .!

Vey good. Now that you've gotten that out of your system maybe you'd deal with the question I asked please. You said that your daughter got full marks in the oral Irish exam last year. My question is how do you know what her mark was in the oral last year?

km79

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'd be mindful of articles related to the LC in the paper. They are mostly attempts to sell more papers. The industry is in a precarious situation.

They are not making the quotes from the politicians up
Some of these quotes have been silly and poorly advised
I question some of the motives of some of the more recent ones however

Mardy Bum

I'd be mindful of articles related to the LC in the paper. They are mostly attempts to sell more papers. The industry is in a precarious situation.

bren2001

Rosita wrote: »

As was pointed out here by a few people the other day the government was very sloppy in not referencing the LC in that statement. I would assume that a Plan B would be part of any discussion but a poorly configured statement has brought that to the fore. Prof Gary Murphy of DCU said yesterday on Radio 1 that they had been advised that under proposed social distancing they had been advised that a 240 seat lecture theatre could hold only 24 people. If that's a general guide (as distinct from DCU's own supposition) then it's hard to imagine any LC taking place and even harder to imagine the school scenario in September not being chaotic and largely on-line based still.

That's a 240 tiered lecture theatre. The tiering introduces a 3rd dimension into the equation i.e. the vertical and this significantly alters the numbers. However, a flat room would still suffer from a significant reduction in capacity.

This number assumes no alteration to the lecture theatre. There are workarounds however, installing plexiglass between desks for example could increase the capacity of a room etc.

I would suspect capacity exists in Dublin for exams quite easily if you factor in the RDS, conference centre, hotel ballrooms etc. but may be problematic in more remote locations. It also requires an increase in invigilators. A solution needs to be found here. The Department have said they are assessing this already.

Random sample

The speculation in the media is unfair and political. It doesn’t serve exam candidates at all.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

How do you know what her mark was in the oral last year? I'm an LC oral examiner confidentiality of marks is very strict.

Last year they were given exact breakdowns for the first time. It was on their online account.

It’s one of the reasons there was an increase in candidates seeking an appeal. They knew exactly how close to the next grade they were and sought appeals on that basis. Obviously, their individual written and oral examiners did not know candidates had been left on a borderline, but a candidate left 1/2 marks off a grade would know it, and appealed as a result.

km79

Rosita wrote: »

As was pointed out here by a few people the other day the government was very sloppy in not referencing the LC in that statement. I would assume that a Plan B would be part of any discussion but a poorly configured statement has brought that to the fore. Prof Gary Murphy of DCU said yesterday on Radio 1 that they had been advised that under proposed social distancing they had been advised that a 240 seat lecture theatre could hold only 24 people. If that's a general guide (as distinct from DCU's own supposition) then it's hard to imagine any LC taking place and even harder to imagine the school scenario in September not being chaotic and largely on-line based still.

Yikes !

Purefrank128

km79 wrote: »

... the effect of loose statements...

... I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades...

Rosita

As was pointed out here by a few people the other day the government was very sloppy in not referencing the LC in that statement. I would assume that a Plan B would be part of any discussion but a poorly configured statement has brought that to the fore. Prof Gary Murphy of DCU said yesterday on Radio 1 that they had been advised that under proposed social distancing they had been advised that a 240 seat lecture theatre could hold only 24 people. If that's a general guide (as distinct from DCU's own supposition) then it's hard to imagine any LC taking place and even harder to imagine the school scenario in September not being chaotic and largely on-line based still.

bren2001

km79 wrote: »

This is exactly what I feared would happen
Some mess now
I wonder was plan b even being considered before the media pressure
Or has it is being formulated in direct response to it?

All I know is once again this has made the job of LC teachers and indeed their parents much more difficult. Some are going to latch on to this again and become unfocused and unmotivated .
And before I get a lecture on July 29th still being there I am aware of this
I am also aware of the dealings I’ve had over the last few weeks with LC students and parents and the effect loose statements from politicians and subsequent media coverage has had .

Everyone needs clarity now . On the operation of Plan A first and foremost. If people can see that actually workable it will calm the calls for predicted grades somewhat
If not then they have a problem and I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades !

Considering you take issue with every press release and every newspaper article makes your job harder, what's your solution? Run the exams? Predictive grading? No college next year?

Millionaire only not

Rosita wrote: »

How do you know what her mark was in the oral last year? I'm an LC oral examiner confidentiality of marks is very strict.

We are quiet aware of your qualifications, who am I to question your judgement.
What was u said yesterday,
An implied part of the task in the exam is seeing if you have the judgement and nerve under stress.

Let the people here make up there own mind on the attitude of the examiner’s answers .!

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Back on topic with more media coverage this morning about plan B

‘Plan B’ for Leaving Cert exams under active consideration
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-b-for-leaving-cert-exams-under-active-consideration-1.4244118

This is exactly what I feared would happen
Some mess now
I wonder was plan b even being considered before the media pressure
Or has it is being formulated in direct response to it?

All I know is once again this has made the job of LC teachers and indeed their parents much more difficult. Some are going to latch on to this again and become unfocused and unmotivated .
And before I get a lecture on July 29th still being there I am aware of this
I am also aware of the dealings I’ve had over the last few weeks with LC students and parents and the effect loose statements from politicians and subsequent media coverage has had .

Everyone needs clarity now . On the operation of Plan A first and foremost. If people can see that actually workable it will calm the calls for predicted grades somewhat
If not then they have a problem and I Hope Plan B involves more than just getting the teachers to predict grades !

Rosita

Millionaire only not wrote: »

She was quiet happy to do her orals , she had her 40% last year too .

How do you know what her mark was in the oral last year? I'm an LC oral examiner confidentiality of marks is very strict.

mirrorwall14

Back on topic with more media coverage this morning about plan B

‘Plan B’ for Leaving Cert exams under active consideration
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-b-for-leaving-cert-exams-under-active-consideration-1.4244118

Millionaire only not

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I'm not at all troubled or vicious. I simply pointed out how exams were marked and that didn't suit you - it's that simple.

The reason I mention the ten years marking, if I didn't do a good job - I wouldn't be there - simple as that.

As already mentioned, one of the best things in this country is the impartiality of the JC and LC - you correct what is front of you - no excuses - the only exception is where there are waivers.

Best of luck to your daughter - she already has 40% - be happy.

I don't teach Irish though

She was quiet happy to do her orals , she had her 40% last year too .

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So what you're saying is 'my daughter got an A in most sections so the examiner should have said 'ah shure go on give her the H1'

The grade she gets is based on her overall cumulative mark across the paper and oral and aural.

I've been marking for 19 years (not in languages), and have often seen papers where the student has answers close to full marks on every question and then you come to one question and they do poorly. And they lose enough marks so their overall mark ends up in the H2 category (still very good) instead of H1. And that's just the way it is. If they were a H1 student the last question would have been as good as the rest of their paper.

Yes well I agree with u 100% in our case it went from H1 to H3 . I know for all her papers she would have expected her H1 but she messed up and that was that .
In her defence she was not a million miles off the question and in all honesty must have deserved some mark . Now if your saying I’m wrong then why did they slightly improve the mark all be it 15 marks for that question.
Now I’m not a lawyer but I’d safely take a bet when your wrong how wrong are u ?
Just to finish with comments like today
1- part of the task to see how students have judgement and nerve under stress
2-comments like I’m 10 years marking papers , who am I to question u .

Now we’ll beg to differ how we access children for there future careers, but remember there teenagers without mistakes in life doing there best.