If Work From Home becomes a thing...

Now that the world knows how relatively well working remotely can function, there is a whole sub-continent that will aim itself to take your IT job off-shore.

Be very careful of advocating how well remote working is

dubrov wrote: »

It's not sustainable for any longer than 2 weeks without a breakdown

Lol.

Its amazing how some people do actually try to do crazy schedules, with mammoth commutes for extended periods.

dubrov

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

You re not reading the posts then.
. It's not non workable . It's hectic but believe it or not it is and currently being done by a number of people. I know one of them and that's their schedule and would have been. In September they would have had it becoming easier as their youngest is moving into primary school. They make it work.

It's nothing to do with moving down the country. I didn't say it was. You're unable or unwilling to read posts and deliberately conflating points trying to make a different argument

It's not sustainable for any longer than 2 weeks without a breakdown

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Economics are now going to work against cities, not just in Ireland, everywhere. It’s not down to Covid-19, that might even delay it as people thinking working from home is more difficult than it actually is, because they have no childcare right now.
In an Irish context a Donegal based office worker can do their job for a lower price than a Dublin one, because of the price of property in the two counties. The winners in the short term will be employers for certain as well as workers who live or want to live in rural areas. The big losers will be commercial property owners in cities.
It’s not just Ireland, the so-called flyover States in America now have advantages no one saw until the last few years for example.
Not strictly working from home, but learning from home is going to be way more prevalent, would expect very few people studying part time to go to physical classes in the future.

I don't think people will accept different wages doing the same job. Especially not in a unionised environment. The private sector will always be you get what you negotiate, and in that situation you are probably aware of the going market rate for the job and what you are worth.

As for remote learning, that only goes so far. Classroom is a richer experience, even from a social level, networking, to experience a different environment etc.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

...believe it or not it is and currently being done by a number of people. I know one of them and that's their schedule and would have been.....

You don't realise it, but you've just confirmed the point they were making. Really it was more of an comic observation, until you started trying to defend it.

Most people are all for working for home if it suits the job and the person. There really isn't one size fits all.

Cyrus wrote: »

I’m struggling to see what point you are making ? You presented a non workable timetable as a solution and then basically admitted it was unworkable !

No one is going to move down the country if that’s whats waiting for them

You re not reading the posts then.
. It's not non workable . It's hectic but believe it or not it is and currently being done by a number of people. I know one of them and that's their schedule and would have been. In September they would have had it becoming easier as their youngest is moving into primary school. They make it work.

It's nothing to do with moving down the country. I didn't say it was. You're unable or unwilling to read posts and deliberately conflating points trying to make a different argument

Economics are now going to work against cities, not just in Ireland, everywhere. It’s not down to Covid-19, that might even delay it as people thinking working from home is more difficult than it actually is, because they have no childcare right now.
In an Irish context a Donegal based office worker can do their job for a lower price than a Dublin one, because of the price of property in the two counties. The winners in the short term will be employers for certain as well as workers who live or want to live in rural areas. The big losers will be commercial property owners in cities.
It’s not just Ireland, the so-called flyover States in America now have advantages no one saw until the last few years for example.
Not strictly working from home, but learning from home is going to be way more prevalent, would expect very few people studying part time to go to physical classes in the future.

Cyrus

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

The irony of you using "deaf ears" &#55357;&#56900;
I neither said nor implied it was solely a scheduling issue.

I’m struggling to see what point you are making ? You presented a non workable timetable as a solution and then basically admitted it was unworkable !

No one is going to move down the country if that’s whats waiting for them

beauf wrote: »

I could reply with a litany of things that can happen to make that unworkable on a daily basis. But since you think it's a solely scheduling issue I know it would fall on deaf ears. You've also left out a ton of stuff.

Nothing to do with working from home. Working from home is great if you have the facilities and it suits.

The irony of you using "deaf ears" ðŸ™„
I neither said nor implied it was solely a scheduling issue.

snotboogie wrote: »

My point is that there are not enough desirable towns to drive this idillic ruralization. Irish people who move back to "de country" overwhelmingly move to big one off houses and not to villages or towns. There is nothing to suggest that Covid will change this. Not sure what you many by forward thinking as all studies suggest that we need to urbanize more rather than embrace decentralisation

Need to urbanize or that we are urbanizing...

Because they are not the same thing. People are being driven into cities through economics

snotboogie wrote: »

I have no faith in wfh "saving rural Ireland" there very few scenic small towns like Dingle. For every Kenmare and Bantry there are 10 Tipp Towns and Fermoys. People don't want to live in small town Ireland and if a wfh gets people out of Dublin, Cork and Galway it will mostly be to one off houses in the middle of nowhere. Two trips a week to the local Aldi 10 miles away won't save rural Ireland. It will encourage people to retreat into the own families and isolate from community.

It just takes the political will to reduce the one off houses. Proper planning and town development with well designed houses would solve a lot. Not everyone wants to live in cities.

Towns of a reasonable size could be earmarked for development and good infrastructure and broadband provided. And people should be encouraged to move out of some of the drab dead villages we have dotted around the country. Or at the very least not build anymore houses in them.

jester77

A sensible alternative is a wework type setup in smaller towns, where people can rent the offices and have everything they need. Good internet connection, security, meeting rooms, office facilities, etc. Instead of travelling half way across the country, you just travel into your local town, plus it also supports the local cafes/restaurants.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

And I m saying that example is not in any way ideal. ...

I could reply with a litany of things that can happen to make that unworkable on a daily basis. But since you think it's a solely scheduling issue I know it would fall on deaf ears. You've also left out a ton of stuff.

Nothing to do with working from home. Working from home is great if you have the facilities and it suits.

snotboogie wrote: »

My point is that there are not enough desirable towns to drive this idillic ruralization. Irish people who move back to "de country" overwhelmingly move to big one off houses and not to villages or towns. There is nothing to suggest that Covid will change this. Not sure what you many by forward thinking as all studies suggest that we need to urbanize more rather than embrace decentralisation

Because urbanisation doesn't have to mean large town's only . We don't have to do exactly what Germany does.. By all means stop one off housing but to give an example. Virginia in county Cavan draw an imaginary circle 2 km from the centre . Compulsory purchase if necessary and allow people to purchase 1/2 acre sites on which to build there own homes Or allow development of smaller site estates by developer.
Killinkere is a small village a few miles away . Repeat but with a 1km circle here. Allow larger 1acre sites for people who want them at a premium . Repeat for all small villages and towns . It's a compromise on people wanting one offs, allowing them to build or live within a couple of miles of their home house in a rural area.

snotboogie

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

People aren't making a decision to go to Dingle over tipp town. People are choosing to relocate out of Dublin to the town's they grew up in or close by. They don't isolate from their community .they become more involved .
They don't typically make two Aldi trips a week.

If might surprise you but a large proportion of people who grew up in portumna would like to live in Portumna as adults. Likewise with inis oirr , with kanturk, with kilbeggan. A combination of who they marry or where they work has an impact and if you're a nurse from nenagh in at Vincent's married to a Garda from manor Hamilton based in store street you re not going to live in portlaoise. But once you've had children your forced to consider your options and the benefits of choosing (in this example) north tipp or north Leitrim to move to.
I'm not optimistic of any forward thinking on the part of the government/public service to de centralise but it is something that would be embraced e

My point is that there are not enough desirable towns to drive this idillic ruralization. Irish people who move back to "de country" overwhelmingly move to big one off houses and not to villages or towns. There is nothing to suggest that Covid will change this. Not sure what you many by forward thinking as all studies suggest that we need to urbanize more rather than embrace decentralisation

beauf wrote: »

I think the point they are making is your example is very idealised and is mostly impractical in the real world. Not that it can't be done. But if you have a very tight cram packed schedule, it rarely goes to plan.

And I m saying that example is not in any way ideal. 20 minutes work then 35 minutes getting kids out of work maybe grabbing a cup of tea yourself and a slice of toast because you have. To be ready for a morning meeting at 930 and only getting back to the house before that. Then work like a demon as you have to get our by 1245 as any later than that and there are delays at the playschool . Back to desk at 115 having driven nine minutes each way and having to prep lunch.then 30 minutes intensive work again as you have another meeting at 330 and you've to spend another 40 minutes collecting and prepping lunch before then..
Not until after that meeting that you can begin the wind down as you know that that any interruption s after that won't interfere with your work as you can always work late. The next batch of tasks font really have to be ready before midnight when the team in another time zone starts their day. But you do like to try and maintain some normality so try to get all done by 6pm so you can have some family time before bed time. Hardly ideal is it

Trust me that's a hell of a lot more hectic than driving 40minutes to your office for 830working till 5 and coming home leaving it all in the office.

snotboogie wrote: »

I have no faith in wfh "saving rural Ireland" there very few scenic small towns like Dingle. For every Kenmare and Bantry there are 10 Tipp Towns and Fermoys. People don't want to live in small town Ireland and if a wfh gets people out of Dublin, Cork and Galway it will mostly be to one off houses in the middle of nowhere. Two trips a week to the local Aldi 10 miles away won't save rural Ireland. It will encourage people to retreat into the own families and isolate from community.

People aren't making a decision to go to Dingle over tipp town. People are choosing to relocate out of Dublin to the town's they grew up in or close by. They don't isolate from their community .they become more involved .
They don't typically make two Aldi trips a week.

If might surprise you but a large proportion of people who grew up in portumna would like to live in Portumna as adults. Likewise with inis oirr , with kanturk, with kilbeggan. A combination of who they marry or where they work has an impact and if you're a nurse from nenagh in at Vincent's married to a Garda from manor Hamilton based in store street you re not going to live in portlaoise. But once you've had children your forced to consider your options and the benefits of choosing (in this example) north tipp or north Leitrim to move to.
I'm not optimistic of any forward thinking on the part of the government/public service to de centralise but it is something that would be embraced e

Blazer

I work in a multinational who have advocated working from home for well over 15 years.
We used to have one developer ringing into our conference calls from his beachfront house in Hawaii, used to drive us all nuts as back then Ireland didn’t really have the internet capability back then.
By 2007 I was well able to do it but nowhere as grand

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

That's not a "neat little plan" it is quite the juggling act if you d bothered to read it. And I haven't said it could be done full time with no child care.
And no where have I generalised and said there is free child care on tap from grand parents.

Of course it wouldn't work for everyone.

The question was how would wfh reduce child care costs and I outlined a particularly difficult situation to start with. Parents with three kids in 2nd class upwards would find it far easier as they will have them in school 5 1/2 hours .

You re the one who took my EXAMPLES as a result for everyone.
Nurses teachers gardai retail staff, plumbers, electricians, lab technicians, painters, cannot work from home in a practical way.. I didn't state that originally as I assumed most people could understand what an example was.
You obviously don't .
It's not fantasy at all.

For a lot of people it won't be easy and will require juggling and people are making those sacrifices as it is saving them money and hassle of getting childcare .

I think the point they are making is your example is very idealised and is mostly impractical in the real world. Not that it can't be done. But if you have a very tight cram packed schedule, it rarely goes to plan.

Jim2007 wrote: »

And you think that will not change, if customer demand changes....

They used to charge by the month here in Switzerland too when I came here 30 years ago, but not they are only too willing to charge by the hour because the market has changed.

You don't need the service for say 7:00am to 6:00 - 7:00 pm, if your day only starts and 9 and finishes at 5... you don't need a full time service, if you both work from home, you don't need a full time service if you your neighbours work from home and you share child minding....

And what is very common here now is what they call "the day mother" - the neighbouring housewife who watches you kids for may be 5 hours a day as a "private arrangement" => no tax.

If a large portion of the population's work habits change, then a lot of other things will change as well.

Sounds like it became unviable as a business. So lots of people stopped doing it. So more casual arrangement became the norm. Childcare is very poorly paid in general. Hence the tax free status for childminders. I expect if they lose a lot of hours due to WFH a lot will simply stop doing it.

huskerdu wrote: »

This is a fantasy written by someone who does not juggle 3 kids and a job.

So so many things can go wrong every day so this neat plan will fall apart .

A lot of people I know who are wfh with kids at the moment constantly juggling things , working later to make up the work that didn’t get done when the kids needed attention.

And no , saying it’s all grand because people have free childcare on tap from grandparents is also a sweeping generalisation which is not true for most people .

Definitely, this has proved that wfh is viable for a lot of people , but not full time with no childcare .

That's not a "neat little plan" it is quite the juggling act if you d bothered to read it. And I haven't said it could be done full time with no child care.
And no where have I generalised and said there is free child care on tap from grand parents.

Of course it wouldn't work for everyone.

The question was how would wfh reduce child care costs and I outlined a particularly difficult situation to start with. Parents with three kids in 2nd class upwards would find it far easier as they will have them in school 5 1/2 hours .

You re the one who took my EXAMPLES as a result for everyone.
Nurses teachers gardai retail staff, plumbers, electricians, lab technicians, painters, cannot work from home in a practical way.. I didn't state that originally as I assumed most people could understand what an example was.
You obviously don't .
It's not fantasy at all.

For a lot of people it won't be easy and will require juggling and people are making those sacrifices as it is saving them money and hassle of getting childcare .

Most of the situation s I'm aware of its one of the couple who work from home.

People make all sorts of sacrifices, garda couples who barely see each other because they work opposite shifts to all them to care for their children- try doing something like that when your on a 24 hour roster shift work .

Then juggling a 9-5 job with childcare becomes a doddle

Cyrus wrote: »

So you are advocating the black market to resolve child care ? For 5 hours ? What happened the half of the year they are off school ?

It's not black market. It is fully legal, and even encouraged;

http://www.childcareonline.ie/index.php/childminders/childminder-supports/childminders-tax-relief-scheme

snotboogie

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Say a couple are both in the same boat both could attend the office one or two days per week if thats a requirement.
Could live in Dingle , drive up Monday morning leave 430 check in to hotel in maynooth , train in to city , work late , back to hotel that evening , back in Tuesday and train back out by 6 home by 10pm but then you re finishing work +home.
It's gas looking at all the public bodies which when forced to have managed to get working from home up and running within weeks, let alone private companies.
I am not optimistic, but I think it is a great opportunity to "save" rural Ireland and reduce housing costs in Dublin among hundreds of other positives

I have no faith in wfh "saving rural Ireland" there very few scenic small towns like Dingle. For every Kenmare and Bantry there are 10 Tipp Towns and Fermoys. People don't want to live in small town Ireland and if a wfh gets people out of Dublin, Cork and Galway it will mostly be to one off houses in the middle of nowhere. Two trips a week to the local Aldi 10 miles away won't save rural Ireland. It will encourage people to retreat into the own families and isolate from community.

Cyrus

Jim2007 wrote: »

And you think that will not change, if customer demand changes....

They used to charge by the month here in Switzerland too when I came here 30 years ago, but not they are only too willing to charge by the hour because the market has changed.

You don't need the service for say 7:00am to 6:00 - 7:00 pm, if your day only starts and 9 and finishes at 5... you don't need a full time service, if you both work from home, you don't need a full time service if you your neighbours work from home and you share child minding....

And what is very common here now is what they call "the day mother" - the neighbouring housewife who watches you kids for may be 5 hours a day as a "private arrangement" => no tax.

If a large portion of the population's work habits change, then a lot of other things will change as well.

So you are advocating the black market to resolve child care ? For 5 hours ? What happened the half of the year they are off school ?

Cyrus

huskerdu wrote: »

This is a fantasy written by someone who does not juggle 3 kids and a job.

So so many things can go wrong every day so this neat plan will fall apart .

A lot of people I know who are wfh with kids at the moment constantly juggling things , working later to make up the work that didn’t get done when the kids needed attention.

And no , saying it’s all grand because people have free childcare on tap from grandparents is also a sweeping generalisation which is not true for most people .

Definitely, this has proved that wfh is viable for a lot of people , but not full time with no childcare .

Exactly I’ve seen some rubbish posted on boards but that must be the most nonsensical post I have ever had the misfortune to read

huskerdu

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Most people with kids 3+ could wfh.
Eg start at 8-820 and check emails/daily schedule, older kids do most of the dressing themselves so 15-20 mins to get them out do school + playschool drops 0845-0910 work till 1250, collect from playschool and give them lunch.20 mins checking mails, small tasks etcc. Back to pick up second child at 2 give them lunch already prepared and work 45 mins and repeat at 2:50-310 for third child before working for the evening getting the dinner on at 510 for five minutes and then working till 6ish . That's 7:30-800 hours of work every day.
Commute time now zero , reducing stress of traffic etc. Starting work earlier , finished later so workflow managed for ten hours instead of 8.
No childminders fees saving 3-12000 per annum.

And that's a difficult situation. As kids get older they can all be collected at same time, become more able to feed themselves, get ready for school.
By working from home , more often than not there are grand parents nearby who in most cases enjoy thw routine of collecting grand kids . They could do the middle of the day collection s give the lunches either which frees up another hour .

This is a fantasy written by someone who does not juggle 3 kids and a job.

So so many things can go wrong every day so this neat plan will fall apart .

A lot of people I know who are wfh with kids at the moment constantly juggling things , working later to make up the work that didn’t get done when the kids needed attention.

And no , saying it’s all grand because people have free childcare on tap from grandparents is also a sweeping generalisation which is not true for most people .

Definitely, this has proved that wfh is viable for a lot of people , but not full time with no childcare .

jester77

I wfh 50/50. I pick up my kids early some of the days. Having them in the background is not an option, you can't work properly with them popping in looking for something or they start fighting with each other and you have to go out to sorry it out.

Lots of advantages to wfh. I get to see more of my kids, can go to the gym during the day, cook my own food, no distractions, etc.

Not sure about working from anywhere though. I work in Germany and we have lots of remote colleagues in different countries. But only in countries where we have a registered office for tax purposes. What I have done is work for a few weeks in different countries, but I was always resident in Germany.

After 20 + years of terrible traffic in many parts of Ireland it should ease quite a lot. I’d expect people to socialise a bit more, they’ll have time and meeting other people will be seen as more important if you don’t meet anyone during working hours.