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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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jrmb

The Irish Times wrote:

The Leaving Cert exams are likely to get underway on Wednesday, July 29th, the Minister for Education Joe McHugh has said.

In a live Instagram interview with the youth website Spunout.ie, Mr McHugh said he hoped to be in a position to formally announce the date in consultation with education partners soon.

HGe said he was keen for exams to begin on a Wednesday so students do not face five days of exams in their first week.

A more detailed timetable will not be finalised until early June, he said, as officials want to have the most up-to-date advice available before making decisions.

Leaving Cert likely to get underway on July 29th - McHugh

bren2001

km79 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0421/1132983-leaving-cert-possible-date/

A live instagram chat
Give me strength
Himself and Harris are pure try hards. "down with the kids"
Do your bloody job

He's the Minister for Education and interacting with kids on a platform that is frequently used by them. That is him doing his job. You've complained on numerous occasions that he doesn't involve stakeholders. You're now complaining that he is interacting with stakeholders. You seem to nitpick and moan about anything and everything.

rainbowtrout

I think I prefer when official announcements are made rather than information coming out on instagram chats with the official confirmation coming later.

But, at least the whole predicted grades things has finally been ruled out.

It's an interesting comment that McHugh said that students can't be a room for more than 2 hours at a time at the moment. So is he waiting to see if things improve so exams are going to take place as normal or do they adjust each exam to be two hours long by taking chunks out of the exam. Or do they split a paper into two papers so they still do the same exam?

r93kaey5p2izun

I'm glad he acknowledged the LCAs have been somewhat forgotten about. He probably doesn't have a clue how it even works.

If they reduce the exam time and therefore cut the paper, it would be no bad thing - offering some choice would then be a good solution which would also help to deal with the issue of unfinished courses.

rainbowtrout

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I'm glad he acknowledged the LCAs have been somewhat forgotten about. He probably doesn't have a clue how it even works.

If they reduce the exam time and therefore cut the paper, it would be no bad thing - offering some choice would then be a good solution which would also help to deal with the issue of unfinished courses.

You're right. Choice would be the easiest solution and possibly the fairest one. Maybe there are some papers that don't lend themselves to it as well as others.

Treppen

McHugh was on the tonight show and said that their would be 'multi-million' investment in technology to help students engage.

It's a good thing I suppose but maybe only makes sense for Leaving Cert.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Treppen wrote: »

McHugh was on the tonight show and said that their would be 'multi-million' investment in technology to help students engage.

It's a good thing I suppose but maybe only makes sense for Leaving Cert.

Love the way they're throwing money at everything at the moment. The next budget won't be funny.

shesty

It will be horrendous.We are all going to pay for this.
The timing of this year's LC will be the least of everyone's worries come October/November.

Wanderer78

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote:

Love the way they're throwing money at everything at the moment. The next budget won't be funny.

shesty wrote:

It will be horrendous.We are all going to pay for this. The timing of this year's LC will be the least of everyone's worries come October/November.

Both ffg have promised there won't be austerity, with interest rates at record lows, some negative, there's no real need to increase taxes to service these new debts, they simply can be rolled over, virtually indefinitely, with the principal being serviced by existing revenues. but it will be interesting to watch both ffg fight the urge to return to their traditional conservative ways of balancing the books

shesty

I don't know if it will be a case of them having to fight an urge.They may simply have to go for some degree of austerity.
Massive short term investment in health,among other things will be needed long term to guard against a resurgence of this or similar.
Wouldn't fancy their chances though, we have taken a lot in terms of austerity in the recent past.It will be very hard to ask it of people again, even if it is not to the same extent.Although I suppose there is a marked difference between austerity to pay banks, vs austerity to beef up health and public services.

Wanderer78

shesty wrote:

I don't know if it will be a case of them having to fight an urge.They may simply have to go for some degree of austerity. Massive short term investment in health,among other things will be needed long term to guard against a resurgence of this or similar. Wouldn't fancy their chances though, we have taken a lot in terms of austerity in the recent past.It will be very hard to ask it of people again, even if it is not to the same extent.Although I suppose there is a marked difference between austerity to pay banks, vs austerity to beef up health and public services.

Austerity has no real data to support its introduction, it's ideologically based, we need to grow our way out of this, austerity does the opposite, sadly and disturbingly, more established parties don't see this at all, they are completely blindsitted by bad economic ideas, if they go down this road, we re screwed.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Both ffg have promised there won't be austerity, with interest rates at record lows, some negative, there's no real need to increase taxes to service these new debts, they simply can be rolled over, virtually indefinitely, with the principal being serviced by existing revenues. but it will be interesting to watch both ffg fight the urge to return to their traditional conservative ways of balancing the books

Have they promised no austerity or no rises in income tax ? There's a big difference. SF are arguing for no austerity.

ngunners

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Have they promised no austerity or no rises in income tax ? There's a big difference. SF are arguing for no austerity.

Not sure it counts as a promise but they are definitely trying to avoid going down the austerity road:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1132751/

Bobtheman

I think its down to the EU. The last time the Germans insisted on a bailout/austerity. This time there will proably be Virus bonds-debt will be mutual , We will still have huge debt-but a good portion of it will be guranteed by the EU. Then it depends on EU budgetary rules-they have been relaxed -but for how long ?

In 2008-we had to have some cutbacks-the state could not continue to spend as much as it did pre crash but it did not have to be so severe . Even the IMF said that afterwards. We were running into trouble before this outbreak-budgetary rules meant we could not invest as much as we wanted in public services-where we had huge deficits. SF somehow proposed coming up with 10 billion extra through various tax measures -they claimed this was costed but the Department of Finance said all SF costings had not been road tested. In otherwords the revenue earning and revenue elements had not been tested out there in the real world
I still believe they should have been given a chance to participate in Government even though I believed their proposals were delusional.

Wanderer78

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think its down to the EU. The last time the Germans insisted on a bailout/austerity. This time there will proably be Virus bonds-debt will be mutual , We will still have huge debt-but a good portion of it will be guranteed by the EU. Then it depends on EU budgetary rules-they have been relaxed -but for how long ?

In 2008-we had to have some cutbacks-the state could not continue to spend as much as it did pre crash but it did not have to be so severe . Even the IMF said that afterwards. We were running into trouble before this outbreak-budgetary rules meant we could not invest as much as we wanted in public services-where we had huge deficits. SF somehow proposed coming up with 10 billion extra through various tax measures -they claimed this was costed but the Department of Finance said all SF costings had not been road tested. In otherwords the revenue earning and revenue elements had not been tested out there in the real world
I still believe they should have been given a chance to participate in Government even though I believed their proposals were delusional.

im not sure ffg will ever allow alternatives such as sf in, theyre control freaks underneath it all, but i do think they ll slowly slide towards more centrist, possibly even left to some degree over the next short while, due to having to

Bobtheman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im not sure ffg will ever allow alternatives such as sf in, theyre control freaks underneath it all, but i do think they ll slowly slide towards more centrist, possibly even left to some degree over the next short while, due to having to

I was very tempted to Vote SF last time number 1 but held back as I really dont think its possible to have large tax cuts like getting rid of the property tax and massive increases in public expenditure. I voted SDP/LAB?GREEN.
However I believe FG/ff are making a mistake in excluding them. They could ask them to do certain things to enter Government-like renouncing the army council and being more tranparent about party funds. Now they are leaving them on the opposition benches. If they grow in seats next time-FG and FF wont be able to dictate a change in SF. SF might be in a position to lead a Government
I do not support viloence a political solution in the North. Sure I understand why it broke out but we didnt need 30 years of slaughtering peoole to get an agreement in 1998 that was quite similar to the one available in 1973!
Plus the IRA killed more catholics than the British army or UVF
Funy how SF now condemn the ReaL IRA for not taking the democratic route?!

km79

In state exam related news

http://twitter.com/JCforTeachers/status/1252932884224028674

political analyst

I'm aware of the reason for the Department of Education's decision not to use the predictive-grade system.

But couldn't it be used in combination with entrance exams (i.e. matriculation) for third-level college courses?

I believe that matriculation exams - either on their own or in combination with LC predictive grades - could be organised in exam halls with provision for social distancing.

ethical

Agreeing with Political Analyst.
Its time Colleges got on board,their silence has become deafening!
Lets face it,they could KEEP cost to a minimun,large exam halls for social distancing etc
After all the ASTIs Ms McDonald goes on about wearing the jersey (not that she ll be on the frontline in any case!), but its a huge opportunity for the 3rd level colleges to do their bit and wear the jersey.

Treppen

political analyst wrote: »

I'm aware of the reason for the Department of Education's decision not to use the predictive-grade system.

But ...

History Queen

km79 wrote: »

In state exam related news

http://twitter.com/JCforTeachers/status/1252932884224028674

Management in our school have asked us our opinions on the exams in September and have expressed the view that they feel it will add to what will already be a disrupted start to the school year.... they have asked us to think about what has been proposed and to propose any alternatives/opinions we may have. I think that school in Galway at least started the conversation, whether they were right or wrong to go on a solo run remains be seen.

political analyst

Treppen wrote: »

No

Why do you say that?

Random sample

Why are jct tweeting a message from the minister? Does anyone else find that wording odd?

thomasdylan

ethical wrote: »

Agreeing with Political Analyst.
Its time Colleges got on board,their silence has become deafening!
Lets face it,they could KEEP cost to a minimun,large exam halls for social distancing etc
After all the ASTIs Ms McDonald goes on about wearing the jersey (not that she ll be on the frontline in any case!), but its a huge opportunity for the 3rd level colleges to do their bit and wear the jersey.

I don't understand this, do you want colleges to sort out entrance exams instead of the Leaving cert. isnt this passing the buck? The colleges have been sorting out their own students and exams. They managed to get all the practicals and written exams for the final year health sciences students brought forward so they could start working earlier. 1000 medical students in 6 colleges were assessed and graduated 3 months early.

bren2001

political analyst wrote: »

I'm aware of the reason for the Department of Education's decision not to use the predictive-grade system.

But couldn't it be used in combination with entrance exams (i.e. matriculation) for third-level college courses?

I believe that matriculation exams - either on their own or in combination with LC predictive grades - could be organised in exam halls with provision for social distancing.

So a student wants to do Engineering, they apply to Trinity, UCD, DCU and TU Dublin. Sit 4 matriculation exams, wait on results, and then decide where to go? What if their first choice is Engineering but their second choice is Business, do they sit two matriculation exams in each University? Who writes the exam? What timeframe do Universities have to determine this and provide adequate time for students to prepare?

There's a whole heap of other issues relating to them which effectively mean it's a non-runner. At the end of the day, if students can sit a matriculation exam in a University and abide by social distancing, then they can sit the LC.

ethical wrote: »

Agreeing with Political Analyst.
Its time Colleges got on board,their silence has become deafening!
Lets face it,they could KEEP cost to a minimun,large exam halls for social distancing etc
After all the ASTIs Ms McDonald goes on about wearing the jersey (not that she ll be on the frontline in any case!), but its a huge opportunity for the 3rd level colleges to do their bit and wear the jersey.

Universities are doing their bit. In the same way second level teachers have moved online, Universities have done the same. This includes all CA and practical based assessment e.g. labs. They've spent the last few weeks redesigning invigilated exams into online exams, take-home exams, or other forms of assessment.

The Minister stated yesterday that students will not start until late October i.e. November. This requires first year to be completely restructured in order to meet the program outcomes. Ultimately, 3rd level institutions have enough on their plate and will aide the Minister if asked to do so e.g. the late start. There's not much else they can do at present.

There's a whole host of other issues in Universities that also need to be addressed due to the pandemic that are nothing to do with first years.

Pursefan

Random sample wrote: »

Why are jct tweeting a message from the minister? Does anyone else find that wording odd?

Nothing surprising these days about how our state bodies are communicating. They all seem to think Twitter is now the acceptable way to communicate! My school also considering doing summer tests for 3rdyrs instead of that ridiculous carryon in Sept.

km79

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/state-working-on-contingency-arrangements-in-case-leaving-cert-cant-go-ahead-in-july-education-minister-39148768.html

rainbowtrout

political analyst wrote: »

I'm aware of the reason for the Department of Education's decision not to use the predictive-grade system.

But couldn't it be used in combination with entrance exams (i.e. matriculation) for third-level college courses?

I believe that matriculation exams - either on their own or in combination with LC predictive grades - could be organised in exam halls with provision for social distancing.

You're proposing that third level colleges provide exams in exam halls to enter college, isn't this exactly what the LC does?

A large exam hall with 100 in it won't be any different from a smaller room with 8 in it.

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

In state exam related news

http://twitter.com/JCforTeachers/status/1252932884224028674

Interesting hashtag there.....

Why would they bother with the assessment task if they are not going to give the students a certificate. The science assessment task is only worth 10%.

km79

http://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1252987296703488001

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