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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Not sure driving an EV counts as personal exercise!

Woosh ...... <The joke>

Not sure a 150km trip counts as "a trip to the shop".

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Not sure driving an EV counts as personal exercise!

Just think of the sweating when on turtle mode with --- showing as range left, 4km+ from the rapid charger................:eek:.

I'd say any guard stopping an EV driver in those circumstances would well assume they had been exercising

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

More updates from eCars.

unkel wrote: »

"and between 2-6kW on the AC connector depending on your car type"

Surely this must be some mistake? If not, the ESB are bringing slow charging to a new level of slow :rolleyes:

https://www.esb.ie/docs/default-source/FNS/circontrol-raption-user-guide
Seems to suggest it's 22kW AC, but yet i've heard again "2-6kW on the AC connection" being mentioned.
Looks like the AC connection is via your own charging cable too.

Also heard the subscription fees will be waived during Covid 19.

[Deleted User]

Are these new chargers 22 Kw ? can only one DC be used at a time ? seems like a kind of a backwards step, sure, by all means replace AC with 22 Kw DC this is fine but what used to be 2 x charge points is now really 1 DC 1 AC.

Why not put 50 Kw DC ?

I'm not sure I get this ? not enough Coffee perhaps.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Are these new chargers 22 Kw ? can only one DC be used at a time ? seems like a kind of a backwards step, sure, by all means replace AC with 22 Kw DC this is fine but what used to be 2 x charge points is now really 1 DC 1 AC.

Why not put 50 Kw DC ?

I'm not sure I get this ? not enough Coffee perhaps.

They have put 50kW DC, but local supply is constrained to 44kW (ie 2*22kW) that was there before. So they allow 44kW DC or probably ~38 if someone uses the AC

[Deleted User]

ELM327 wrote: »

They have put 50kW DC, but local supply is constrained to 44kW (ie 2*22kW) that was there before. So they allow 44kW DC or probably ~38 if someone uses the AC

So it's a 22 Kw AC + 22 Kw DC ?

Shame 2 DC can't be used.

It really seems the ESB are leaving all the high power chargers to some other company.

ELM327

No, it's a 44kW DC with a 6kW AC

[Deleted User]

They said in the link on the previous page there was no charge to use the 22 Kw ac ?

KCross

Unless someone has personally connected AC and DC at the same time to one of these new chargers, we dont know.

The pics clearly show DC 50kW and the guide clearly says 22kW AC but what it actually does when both are connected at the same time is anyones guess as eCars have not been consistent with that with their existing chargers.

You could even have a situation where you get different behavior with these new chargers across sites based on local supply constraints.

ELM327

Yes it's a mistake. They made a big deal out of the 6kW AC on both facebook posts. I'd say they havent a clue anyway tbh.
If there's a site limit of 44kW a better use could have been 22kW DC but then would they charge for that at the same rate? Or free? or inbetween (like a half price rate for half price power)

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Unless someone has personally connected AC and DC at the same time to one of these new chargers, we dont know.

The pics clearly show DC 50kW and the guide clearly says 22kW AC but what it actually does when both are connected at the same time is anyones guess as eCars have not been consistent with that with their existing chargers.

You could even have a situation where you get different behavior with these new chargers across sites based on local supply constraints.

I'd say they have learned from Obama plaza and the new portlaoise charger that the 50kW hardware on a 44kW supply is going to be limited to 44kW.
It may be a 50kW capable unit but as the supply is only 44kW combined it wont deliver 50kW and will probably deliver a max of 35-36kW to the car after losses, if no one is on the AC

Meanwhile you could nip down to the Ionity or Tesla charger and get 3-4 times that. Says a lot for our national energy provider!!

unkel

I got charged €1.11 from eCars a few days ago. Thought, what the hell is that? Until I realised that 5 weeks ago, I needed a very quick topup in Ioniq as the guys from the car valet had left the car switched on for 4 hours straight while they were cleaning the car and I didn't have enough juice to make it home

So what are eCars using our tax millions for anyway? Obviously still not to install fast chargers then. Pathetic that they are now installing slower chargers than they did nearly 10 years ago :rolleyes:

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

It may be a 50kW capable unit but as the supply is only 44kW combined it wont deliver 50kW and will probably deliver a max of 35-36kW to the car after losses, if no one is on the AC

That will vary though. They could have more than 44kW available.

Its not just a case that it previously had 2x22kW AC therefore only 44kW available for the new unit.

There might be 60kW available there or they might have upgraded the supply when installing the new chargers.

You just dont know for each site unless you actually plug in. You cant assume anything.

unkel

They make "44kW supply" on the site sound like this is some sort of barrier that can not be overcome. Which of course is nonsense. ESB built all the connections for Tesla Superchargers and Ionity chargers in Ireland that can all do up to about 2,000kW. About 50 times what their own sites provide :rolleyes: And it's not like they have to do it with their own money, we the tax payers are paying heavily for this (and we're not paying a cent for Tesla Superchargers and very little via some indirect subsidies to Ionity)

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

That will vary though. They could have more than 44kW available.

Its not just a case that it previously had 2x22kW AC therefore only 44kW available for the new unit.

There might be 60kW available there or they might have upgraded the supply when installing the new chargers.

You just dont know for each site unless you actually plug in. You cant assume anything.

It's not the case for sure, no you are right.
However, as the existing 2*22kW AC to DC upgrades have shown power limits at around 40kW and they said themselves that it was limited to 44kW (an odd specific number that doesnt match anything else) I would believe it was power limit.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

They make "44kW supply" on the site sound like this is some sort of barrier that can not be overcome. Which of course is nonsense. ESB built all the connections for Tesla Superchargers and Ionity chargers in Ireland that can all do up to about 2,000kW. About 50 times what their own sites provide :rolleyes: And it's not like they have to do it with their own money, we the tax payers are paying heavily for this (and we're not paying a cent for Tesla Superchargers and very little via some indirect subsidies to Ionity)

Taxpayers funded very little of the network.
Most of it came from the EU via the Ten-T project, with a small amount of opex coming from the PSO levy. And the recent €10mn from direct taxation. Which is small change in the bigger scheme of things.
2.5% of one week's SW bill.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

And it's not like they have to do it with their own money, we the tax payers are paying heavily for this...

But they are using their own money, lots of it. Already millions in debt which will likely never be recovered.

The money they are getting from the taxpayer could not be characterised as "paying heavily".

unkel wrote: »

(and we're not paying a cent for Tesla Superchargers ...

You're not paying for Tesla Superchargers unless you buy a Tesla, since its a private network. So, thats exactly as it should be.

unkel wrote: »

.. and very little via some indirect subsidies to Ionity)

Its about 20% I think. Not insignificant.

If you consider the money that we are giving to eCars and the service they are/will provide into the future with AC and DC it will be a more useful service in the long term than the 6 or so DC only sites that Ionity will give you which will really only be for motorway runs. eCars are providing a much broader service than that.

I think the main issue so far is that all we are seeing from eCars are upgrades of existing sites and none of their multi charger hubs. They need to move that on quickly. Its a mystery why they havent after 18+ months of having announced it but I assume it will come.

[Deleted User]

Imagine putting in petrol or diesel pumps the took twice as long to fill up ?

So why should electric car drivers with more than 50 Kw charging capability have to put up with a network of under powered chargers ?

This isn't acceptable in my opinion of course, I got until November to decide whether to ditch the Rex or not and so far I've very far from being convinced to change and we still only have 2 x 50 Kw chargers only on 2 sites on the whole Island. It's really sad to be honest.

ELM327

We dont!
I rarely use the ecars network anymore except for the destination chargers.
Unless I find one on free vend.... the Navan FCP was free to use (screen lit up with a select your power screen) the other day.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

... we still only have 2 x 50 Kw chargers only on 2 sites on the whole Island. It's really sad to be honest.

It is.

The IEVOA supposedly talk to eCars regularly. I wonder are they giving eCars an earful and asking what the story is with the charging hubs. If not, they should be.

Anyone on here got insight into IEVOA activities?

ELM327

I know a couple of the committee read these boards on occasion. Beyond the links and documents they publish I have no further insight.

[Deleted User]

I Remember a lot of ass kissing being done to the ESB and lord look down on anyone who dare mention the network is anything but perfect.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

So why should electric car drivers with more than 50 Kw charging capability have to put up with a network of under powered chargers ?

Why should electric car drivers with cars capable of charging with 50 kW DC have to put up with only having a network of 22kW AC chargers in our provisional towns which they can often only use 7-11kW of?

Hubs are coming, but require planning permission and network upgrades. Replacing a 2x22kW AC with one of these DC lite chargers is a relatively simple equipment upgrade.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

Replacing a 2x22kW AC with one of these DC lite chargers is a relatively simple equipment upgrade.

The difference in costs is quite large. 2x22kW AC are cheaper than DC for some reason. Also you need cooling and extra power for the DC AFAIK.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

Why should electric car drivers with cars capable of charging with 50 kW DC have to put up with only having a network of 22kW AC chargers in our provisional towns which they can often only use 7-11kW of?

Hubs are coming, but require planning permission and network upgrades. Replacing a 2x22kW AC with one of these DC lite chargers is a relatively simple equipment upgrade.

Because AC is a lot cheaper and not everyone needs to charge at fastest speed when they have the time to plug in and leave the car there.

when the ESB were rolling out the network, Renault and Nissan told them they would have many more models on the road capable of having faster AC charging so the ESB rolled out a network of many 22 Kw x2 charge points. Not a bad idea but they were told a lot of porkies too.

We need AC as well as DC but I don't see replacing 2 x AC chargers with 1x 44 Kw DC charger a good thing. 2 x 20 Kw DC would have been a better idea, at least 2 cars can get a decent charge rate if these are supposed to be destination chargers.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

We need AC as well as DC but I don't see replacing 2 x AC chargers with 1x 44 Kw DC charger a good thing. 2 x 20 Kw DC would have been a better idea, at least 2 cars can get a decent charge rate if these are supposed to be destination chargers.

These aren't meant to be destination chargers, they're an expansion to the geographic spread of the DC charge network in a cost efficient manner. I'll now be able to add approx 140km of range in 30 mins which is suitable for a mid journey stop. If I was only getting 70km of range in that time, it's basically an annoying planning exercise.

I want faster chargers to be installed where it makes sense, but towns and supermarkets are the perfect place to install these 40-50kW chargers.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I think the main issue so far is that all we are seeing from eCars are upgrades of existing sites and none of their multi charger hubs. They need to move that on quickly. Its a mystery why they havent after 18+ months of having announced it but I assume it will come.

+1

I spoke to the ESB spokeswoman (who had a company car Ioniq electric BTW) at Newland's cross at the press launch of the upgraded charger there (was formerly CHAdeMO and replaced with a triple head) that I came across accidentally

That was about a year ago (from memory). She told me informally that tenders were out for the multi charger hubs and that process would take until September (of last year), after which successful bidders would be contracted to build the multi charger hubs. Yet here we are the guts of a year later and there is nothing...

liamog

unkel wrote: »

That was about a year ago (from memory). She told me informally that tenders were out for the multi charger hubs and that process would take until September (of last year), after which successful bidders would be contracted to build the multi charger hubs. Yet here we are the guts of a year later and there is nothing...

I'm really surprised they didn't rush at least one site through to gain some good publicity, if we had a halfway decent transport minister it would of probably happened. With the one we have, I'm surprised Stepaside doesn't have an 8 charger hub all capable of 350kW!

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

These aren't meant to be destination chargers, they're an expansion to the geographic spread of the DC charge network in a cost efficient manner. I'll now be able to add approx 140km of range in 30 mins which is suitable for a mid journey stop. If I was only getting 70km of range in that time, it's basically an annoying planning exercise.

I want faster chargers to be installed where it makes sense, but towns and supermarkets are the perfect place to install these 40-50kW chargers.

Not long ago people were suggesting these 50 Kw DC chargers be installed along the motorways

We need as many forms of charging we can get, 2 x 22 Kw AC chargers replaced by a single DC charger is fine except for the fact that's 2x chargers that could have charged 2 cars at the same time sufficiently in the time the drivers did their business in town. The time limit on these DC chargers might not allow them to do their business without having to come back and move the car.

I would much rather see 2 X 22 Kw chargers scattered all over town and see 150 Kw DC on the motorways. 2 x 20 Kw DC now that's a different matter and one I would much rater see as a suitable AC replacement.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

I'm really surprised they didn't rush at least one site through to gain some good publicity

Indeed or maybe just 3 or 4 of them on the busiest motorways between our cities

Would have cost a few million, but worth 10 times that in political capital :cool: