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All religious schools should be private.

Sean.3516

So the majority of public schools in this country exist and have existed under the patronage of the Catholic Church. This may have been appropriate when Ireland was a culturally and religiously homogenous country. However now that our society is a lot more pluralistic it may not be appropriate.

The original purpose of a catholic school was to provide education in a catholic context. ie. Reading, writing, arithmetic etc. while also inculcating and teaching the catholic faith. The fact that the proportion of devout catholics in the population has decreased while the proportion of catholic schools in the country has pretty much stayed the same has been to the detriment of BOTH catholics and non-catholics.

On one hand non-catholics are forced to have their children educated in a school with an ethos they may not share. On the other hand catholic schools have been forced to water down their catholicism. The fact that they're state funded has meant they cannot really discriminate in who they admit which means that in order to serve a non-catholic population they have had to compromise on the extent to which they can really TEACH catholicism. Everyone acknowledges pretty much that you can attend a catholic school in this country your entire childhood and leave knowing nothing about catholicism.

Wouldn't both parties be better served if we were to re-organise our school system so that all public schools are secular, while all religious schools must be run on a private basis. Catholic schools might successfully achieve their mission in teaching catholicism TO THOSE THAT WANT IT.

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Geuze

Note that of the 3,000 approx primary school in Ireland, most of them are private.

There are just a few owned by the ETB, mainly in west Dublin I think.

Do parents want all primary schools run by the VEC?

I don't.

Same goes for 2nd-level.

Do we want all secondary schools to be VEC/ETB schools?

I don't.

Pythagorean

In America, all Public schools are strictly non religious, they receive State funding, the teachers are well paid compared to their Catholic school counterparts. Most of these Catholic diocesan schools are funded by fees, private fund raising, etc, they exist on a shoestring, and are at constant risk of closure. One school of my acquaintance relied on weekly bingo sessions to try and meet their payroll !!. In America, if you wish your child to be educated with a particular religious ethos, then you have to accept that your choice of school is limited, and that you will have to pay for the privilege, and maybe accept lesser facilities etc, than they would have at a Public school. Our system here is not perfect, but I think it is better than the US model.

Mrs OBumble

So you think religious parents should pay for their kids education, and pay taxes to educate your kids too?

One eyed Jack

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Wouldn't both parties be better served if we were to re-organise our school system so that all public schools are secular, while all religious schools must be run on a private basis.

No :pac:

[Deleted User]

State funding means that there is oversight into the running of the school. Being private means that they have a greater degree of freedom to manage it the way they want.

I wouldn't want religious schools to have that degree of freedom anymore... especially once we start seeing schools being set up and run by other religions such as Islam. The RCC was bad enough.

So. Nope.

Edgware

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So you think religious parents should pay for their kids education, and pay taxes to educate your kids too?

Stop talking sense. This is Boards

Sardonicat

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So you think religious parents should pay for their kids education, and pay taxes to educate your kids too?

Yes. Or educate them about their religion themselves or within the parish.

Salary Negotiator

While I would prefer state funded schools to be non-religious I think most people in Ireland are happy with the current system.

I seem to remember a few schools asked the parents if they wanted to take over the board of management and remove the church from it but not enough parents came forward.

I’m no fan of the church but until the local population step up then the church are kind of stuck running the schools.

one world order

Teaching the young about God is the single most important gift a child will receive in school. So much learned in school does not stand as you become an adult, storing up knowledge in your short term memory for an exam that is quickly forgotten.

This world brings greed, envy, sexual immorality, bitterness, hatred and makes many people lost as society is obsessed with money, possessions and looks.

Some people don't want to accept they are a sinner and in need of salvation like everyone else. They hate God and hate the fact religion is thought in school.

God sent his son into this world to take the punishment for our sins by dying on the cross. He gave us the holy spirit to change our sinful hearts and battle the temptations this world throws at us.

God and the devil are real, demons, angels and hell are all real. We all have a soul and it is important to realise there will be a time of judgement for everyone, both the godly and ungodly.

[Deleted User]

one world order wrote: »

Teaching the young about God is the single most important gift a child will receive in school.

God no, Logical and critical thinking is the most important gift a child can receive in school.

And I'm saying that as someone who believes in God.

So much learned in school does not stand as you become an adult, storing up knowledge in your short term memory for an exam that is quickly forgotten.

This world brings greed, envy, sexual immorality, bitterness, hatred and makes many people lost as society is obsessed with money, possessions and looks.

Some people don't want to accept they are a sinner and in need of salvation like everyone else. They hate God and hate the fact religion is thought in school.

God sent his son into this world to take the punishment for our sins by dying on the cross. He gave us the holy spirit to change our sinful hearts and battle the temptations this world throws at us.

God and the devil are real, demons, angels and hell are all real. We all have a soul and it is important to realise there will be a time of judgement for everyone, both the godly and ungodly.

And... you've proven exactly why logical and critical thinking is a far greater gift. Frankly, your philosophy is horrible. Thankfully, it doesn't reflect religion outside of the nutcases in the US or Opus Dei.

Salary Negotiator

[Deleted User] wrote: »

God no, Logical and critical thinking is the most important gift a child can receive in school.

And I'm saying that as someone who believes in God.

And... you've proven exactly why logical and critical thinking is a far greater gift. Frankly, your philosophy is horrible. Thankfully, it doesn't reflect religion outside of the nutcases in the US or Opus Dei.

There’s a reason religious orders are so keen to indoctrinate kids when they are young. It’s because as they get older and learn logic and critical thinking it becomes harder to believe in a god.

[Deleted User]

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

There’s a reason religious orders are so keen to indoctrinate kids when they are young. It’s because as they get older and learn logic and critical thinking it becomes harder to believe in a god.

I disagree. I received both a Marist Brothers and Jesuit education... They sought to impart the ability to understand logical thinking. Religious orders do change over time.. and they're not equal in fanatical thinking.

mikemac2

It was already proposed when Ruari Quinn was minister. 1 out of every 8 Catholic schools would move patronage. Even Archbishop Martin was not against it but parents and locals were and the proposal went nowhere

It wasn’t defeated by a secret hierarchy OP, it was the same people in your town who did not want it

You would get stronger resistance from the Church of Ireland leadership and their 170 primary schools. They would plead they are a minority and need to be left alone.

Salary Negotiator

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I disagree. I received both a Marist Brothers and Jesuit education... They sought to impart the ability to understand logical thinking. Religious orders do change over time.. and they're not equal in fanatical thinking.

Not my experience after 14 years of receiving De La Salle education but I do agree that some do/are chang(e)ing.

I also think by and large the religious orders do a good job educating kids, I’d just prefer they had less say over the ethos of the majority of schools.

one world order

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

There’s a reason religious orders are so keen to indoctrinate kids when they are young. It’s because as they get older and learn logic and critical thinking it becomes harder to believe in a god.

It is harder to be an atheist than believe in God's existence. It is scientifically impossible to create everything from nothing. Some ungodly people have tried to push the theory we evolved from apes. If you question them they say the apes evolved from fish, that came from bacteria, that came from atoms that came from nothing. So the seas, mountains, animals, humans and all God's creation came from nothing, just some bacteria somewhere. Does this sound logical?

s1ippy

one world order wrote: »

Teaching the young about God is the single most important gift a child will receive in school. So much learned in school does not stand as you become an adult, storing up knowledge in your short term memory for an exam that is quickly forgotten.

This world brings greed, envy, sexual immorality, bitterness, hatred and makes many people lost as society is obsessed with money, possessions and looks.

Some people don't want to accept they are a sinner and in need of salvation like everyone else. They hate God and hate the fact religion is thought in school.

God sent his son into this world to take the punishment for our sins by dying on the cross. He gave us the holy spirit to change our sinful hearts and battle the temptations this world throws at us.

God and the devil are real, demons, angels and hell are all real. We all have a soul and it is important to realise there will be a time of judgement for everyone, both the godly and ungodly.

Pahahahahahaaaa!

[Deleted User]

one world order wrote: »

It is harder to be an atheist than believe in God's existence. It is scientifically impossible to create everything from nothing. Some ungodly people have tried to push the theory we evolved from apes. If you question them they say the apes evolved from fish, that came from bacteria, that came from atoms that came from nothing. So the seas, mountains, animals, humans and all God's creation came from nothing, just some bacteria somewhere. Does this sound logical?

So just to be clear, is 'sounds logical' now the appropriate test for choosing what beliefs should be taught in schools?

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't want religious schools to have that degree of freedom anymore... especially once we start seeing schools being set up and run by other religions such as Islam. The RCC was bad enough.

There are Jewish and Muslin primary schools in Ireland.

Vestiapx

one world order wrote: »

It is harder to be an atheist than believe in God's existence. It is scientifically impossible to create everything from nothing. Some ungodly people have tried to push the theory we evolved from apes. If you question them they say the apes evolved from fish, that came from bacteria, that came from atoms that came from nothing. So the seas, mountains, animals, humans and all God's creation came from nothing, just some bacteria somewhere. Does this sound logical?

Who made God?

statesaver

Geuze wrote: »

There are Jewish and Muslin primary schools in Ireland.

One of these schools will have a tolerant, inclusive and liberal outlook and the other will not.

[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

There are Jewish and Muslin primary schools in Ireland.

They're not completely independent, and therefore, the state can monitor how they treat their students.

statesaver wrote: »

One of these schools will have a tolerant, inclusive and liberal outlook and the other will not.

Don't be too quick to approve Jewish schools. They're just as likely to be hardcore religious and traditional.

work

statesaver wrote: »

One of these schools will have a tolerant, inclusive and liberal outlook and the other will not.

I don't understand it's like sesame street "one of these kids ain't quite the same
Well they may not be the same just really not that different so I have no clue which one you are referring to?

work

one world order wrote: »

Teaching the young about God is the single most important gift a child will receive in school. So much learned in school does not stand as you become an adult, storing up knowledge in your short term memory for an exam that is quickly forgotten.

This world brings greed, envy, sexual immorality, bitterness, hatred and makes many people lost as society is obsessed with money, possessions and looks.

Some people don't want to accept they are a sinner and in need of salvation like everyone else. They hate God and hate the fact religion is thought in school.

God sent his son into this world to take the punishment for our sins by dying on the cross. He gave us the holy spirit to change our sinful hearts and battle the temptations this world throws at us.

God and the devil are real, demons, angels and hell are all real. We all have a soul and it is important to realise there will be a time of judgement for everyone, both the godly and ungodly.

Well your well into the cult. Is it your God your talking about but what about the other cults magic cloud surfers?

AuldDaysul

Vestiapx wrote: »

Who made God?

Gods God did obviously...

Monday to Friday should be completely secular education in my opinion, Saturday and Sunday you can take your pick of the many Gods to learn about.

McGiver

There must be a total secularism. Total separation of the church and state. Not just Catholic Church but any church or religion must not control public school system. Schools must be fully secular. As on any other developed country. Ireland is lagging 100 years in this aspect. It's frankly embarrassing for a developed western European country.

Religious schools must be private. Parents wishing their children undergoing religious propaganda can opt for this at a cost and send their children to a private school. Everyone else should be spared of this.

Sean.3516

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So you think religious parents should pay for their kids education, and pay taxes to educate your kids too?

Well, I'd rather a system where one pays taxes at rate proportional to how much they use government services. With the exception of welfare of course since the purpose of welfare is to support people who otherwise couldn't pay for anything.

It's interesting how no one ever makes the argument you just made with regard to healthcare. I have to pay for someone else's use of the public healthcare even if I don't use public healthcare myself. But paying for someone else's use of public schools when I don't use public schools? That would be completely out of order!

Sean.3516

Deleted User wrote: »

State funding means that there is oversight into the running of the school. Being private means that they have a greater degree of freedom to manage it the way they want.

Yes. This is my whole point. If the Catholic Church wants to teach Catholicism to its adherents and this is something parents want, then there's no reason that they should be prevented from doing that.

If what you're concerned about is a possible re-occurrence of the abuses, the Church in fairness has taken steps to prevent this such as the rule that a priest can't be alone with children without a lay person present. Personally I don't think they've done enough to punish their own people when they've done stuff like this but to be fair they have taken measures to prevent it happening again. And obviously the fact that the school is private doesn't negate the role the state has in preventing abuse of children. We couldn't always count on the state to do this in old days as the state and church were in cahoots with each other but things are different now.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't want religious schools to have that degree of freedom anymore... especially once we start seeing schools being set up and run by other religions such as Islam. The RCC was bad enough.

So. Nope.

You may not like religion or the idea of teaching kids religious values but this is an issue of rights. People have a right to religion and exercise thereof. Parents also have a right to socialise and their children the way they like to the extent that they don't abuse them. We shouldn't impose the preferences of one group of people on another.

Sean.3516

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree. I received both a Marist Brothers and Jesuit education... They sought to impart the ability to understand logical thinking. Religious orders do change over time.. and they're not equal in fanatical thinking.

This is correct. People who cast aspersions about the Catholic Church being fanatical and fundamentalist really need to read more.

Catholicism has a pretty rich intellectual and philosophical side. There was an active effort in the Church to have revelation and rationality complement each other. The idea that everything in the Bible should be taken super literally is a relatively recent idea and a Protestant one at that.

St. Augustine was saying as early as 400AD that the Book of Genesis was entirely metaphorical and Aquinas actively appealed to Greek philosophy on issues of morality and the existence of God.

It's such a pity that this side of Catholicism is never taught in schools. Instead we've been stuck with this weird lovey dovey Christianity where Jesus is treated like some sort of hippy.

Geuze

McGiver wrote: »

Religious schools must be private.

Isn't this already the case?

The vast majority of primary schools are already private, and always have been.

They are owned by Educate Together, the diocese, the Church of Ireland, the Jews, the Muslims, etc.

There are a handful of public primary schools, owned by the ETBs.

Sean.3516

Geuze wrote: »

Isn't this already the case?

The vast majority of primary schools are already private, and always have been.

They are owned by Educate Together, the diocese, the Church of Ireland, the Jews, the Muslims, etc.

There are a handful of public primary schools, owned by the ETBs.

I guess we're not just talking about primary schools but secondary schools as well.

Yes this is true. Primary schools are mostly private but the state is still heavily invested in these schools on a regulatory level, provision of teachers wages, equipment and facilities etc. The fact that these schools operate in the public domain limits their ability to actually teach the faith as much as they might want.

What I'm proposing is that the state divest itself from schools that wish to stay religious so that the schools that genuinely care about this stuff can do it fully without interference from the state.