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Child Item

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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spurious

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Just discussing what may or may not happen so keep your FFS, tnx

There is zero chance the SEC will enter into contracts with people and not pay them.

km79

Will we get an update from SC ? Not that I expect much change now

jimmytwotimes 2013

spurious wrote: »

There is zero chance the SEC will enter into contracts with people and not pay them.

If you know for definite I'll take that as gospel so

Millem

Sec have not appointed anyone yet as a superintendent.
The rates of mileage/subsistence and daily rate will be in the envelope with the appointment letter.
People can take it or leave then.

km79

On matt Cooper now
A students view - I assume she was representing the now all powerful student Union
A parents view - she spoke very very well and made a lot of sense .
Again making the point that two weeks is not viewed as enough .
I again not two important words in the ministers proposal “at least “ 2 weeks
(Turns our she is an Irish Indo journalist ......)

Peter Lydon on for teacher view - commenting on class contact time . Speaking very well.
“Department have even shocking “

deiseindublin

Áine Hyland on DriveTime Radio 1 now, 17.49 start.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Áine Hyland on DriveTime Radio 1 now, 17.49 start.

Whatever she says will be listened to

km79

Student making a very valid point about contingency of a single student gets sick with covid 19............

It’s just a crazy crazy mess now
And when they try and sort it it will probably get bigger

HerrKuehn

km79 wrote: »

Student making a very valid point about contingency of a single student gets sick with covid 19............

It’s just a crazy crazy mess now
And when they try and sort it it will probably get bigger

What is the solution then?

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

Student making a very valid point about contingency of a single student gets sick with covid 19............

It’s just a crazy crazy mess now
And when they try and sort it it will probably get bigger

I get the feeling it's all window dressing.
In the end it's going to be predicted grades (not that I'm advocating for that!).

deiseindublin

But, there will be contingency arrangements this year, as per last year, so that is covered I would have thought.

km79

HerrKuehn wrote: »

What is the solution then?

Build Minister McHugh a time machine. Put him in it. Tell him not to heap more stress on and demotivate both teachers and students over the Easter holiday. Tell him to consult with ALL stakeholders and then come back after Easter with a well thought out plan !

Seriously though it is purely firefighting for his proposal now

Award all practical elements 100% - it is grossly unfair that some have and some have not. This will also help alleviate stress, free up study time and also save money which as we know is what is behind a lot of this. It will also reduce risks to teachers who will not have to travel around various schools inspecting various projects. And to students......the Ag Practical involves student interviews for example. Madness.
Cancel the JC completely. I have outlined the reasons why earlier on thread but in short it is pointless in September and creates more issues than it solves.

MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL
Engage with all key stakeholders NOW. Come up with a contingency now in the event that the LC is cancelled at a later date. This is likely imo. So they need to be ready.

km79

https://www.asti.ie/news/asti-will-work-to-support-delayed-leaving-certificate/

Going exactly as predicted

I do note they use the term “face to face “ rather than classroom though
Interesting

TheDriver

The ASTI statement is nicely said. We're all in this together but we must agree on it too. Love the wellbeing line at the end, nicely thrown in.

It wasnt me123

Just joined this thread so not sure if this has been put forward. I have a daughter supposedly doing LC in June 2020.

Why can't all the students who have completed 90+% of the curriculum and do not need points (like work or apprenticeships, etc) and have particpated in school for the last two years - this is easily checked by the school's records - get given a pass Leaving Certificate. No other grade just a pass to allow them to get on with their lives.

There is approximately 46,000 sitting LC this year. Of those possibly 50% go to college, the rest work, apprenticeships etc.
So that is approximately 23,000 children to sit the LC. Much easier to accommodate with social isolating than double that amount.

Or they can give everyone a LC and get the children going to college to do matriculation - which is what we all used to do.

I think the above options are better than saying to children, sit in limbo, have no holiday and keep studying just in case we do have the exam. And if you wanted to go to work, tough, sit at home on your own - which eventually will be for 5 months - and then perform at your best for the most important exam of your 12 years of school.

Madness and don't even get me started on their mental, the lack of wifi to participate in online learning, children who have special needs.

km79

http://twitter.com/Steve_360_/status/1250149891269185539

I think that’s a pretty good summary of the current LC “plan”

mirrorwall14

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Just joined this thread so not sure if this has been put forward. I have a daughter supposedly doing LC in June 2020.

Why can't all the students who have completed 90+% of the curriculum and do not need points (like work or apprenticeships, etc) and have particpated in school for the last two years - this is easily checked by the school's records - get given a pass Leaving Certificate. No other grade just a pass to allow them to get on with their lives.

There is approximately 46,000 sitting LC this year. Of those possibly 50% go to college, the rest work, apprenticeships etc.
So that is approximately 23,000 children to sit the LC. Much easier to accommodate with social isolating than double that amount.

Or they can give everyone a LC and get the children going to college to do matriculation - which is what we all used to do.

I think the above options are better than saying to children, sit in limbo, have no holiday and keep studying just in case we do have the exam. And if you wanted to go to work, tough, sit at home on your own - which eventually will be for 5 months - and then perform at your best for the most important exam of your 12 years of school.

Madness and don't even get me started on their mental, the lack of wifi to participate in online learning, children who have special needs.

Please, please, PLEASE email your concerns to all your local TDs. Better yet, ring them and speak to them! And tell every single parent and student you know to do the same. The teachers will not be listened to. They are not being consulted. The principal's body seem to be fully behind this. The TUI already seem afraid to rock the boat. ASTI seems to just be trying to reign things in. Unless the parents and students actually start kicking up a riot and yelling at their TDs nothing is going to change

It wasnt me123

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Please, please, PLEASE email your concernts all your local TDs. Better yet, ring them and speak to them! And tell every single parent and student you know to do the same. .....

I emailed Joe McHugh, Education Minister, last Thursday/Friday, awaiting a response. I emailed Mary Lou McDonald (but she was out sick with covid19) and Mattie McGrath but they just responded with we'll mention it.

DOes anyone know what the Irish Secondary Students Union is on this proposal?
My daughter has Asthma, she will not, under any circumstances, be sitting in an exam hall, either on her own or with 300 others.

titan18

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Steve_360_/status/1250149891269185539

I think that’s a pretty good summary of the current LC “plan”

To a lot of those points, you can just go give me a solution. Cos a lot of just sounds like complaining. It's easy to do that, what's this person's solution.

mirrorwall14

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I emailed Joe McHugh, Education Minister, last Thursday/Friday, awaiting a response. I emailed Mary Lou McDonald (but she was out sick with covid19) and Mattie McGrath but they just responded with we'll mention it.

DOes anyone know what the Irish Secondary Students Union is on this proposal?
My daughter has Asthma, she will not, under any circumstances, be sitting in an exam hall, either on her own or with 300 others.

I would also contact your own local FF/FG Td's. They'll likely be going into government. The secondary student union is against it I believe. It might be worth contacting the Asthma Society of Ireland.

km79

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I emailed Joe McHugh, Education Minister, last Thursday/Friday, awaiting a response. I emailed Mary Lou McDonald (but she was out sick with covid19) and Mattie McGrath but they just responded with we'll mention it.

DOes anyone know what the Irish Secondary Students Union is on this proposal?
My daughter has Asthma, she will not, under any circumstances, be sitting in an exam hall, either on her own or with 300 others.

Or be attending classes in July obviously
I’m sure many parents are of a similar mind
My youngest is in 3rd class . He doesn’t have underlying conditions (that we know of anyway!)
If they return before end of June I don’t think I will be sending him
For the sake of the few weeks it’s not worth the risk of him becoming a carrier .
Again I’m sure many other parents are of a similar mindset

I would hate to have a child in LC this year tbh
An impossible situation
My lad did his last year
He was also the last year to do the older Junior Cert in all subjects . Which I was also delighted about at the time .
A lot of this years LC student body were the first to do the new JC . And the English paper was a disaster of I remember correctly

km79

titan18 wrote: »

To a lot of those points, you can just go give me a solution. Cos a lot of just sounds like complaining. It's easy to do that, what's this person's solution.

See my earlier post
I’m not typing it out for the third time

This person is a LC student.
It’s not for them (or me really ) to give the solution to the mess of another persons creation

rainbowtrout

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Just joined this thread so not sure if this has been put forward. I have a daughter supposedly doing LC in June 2020.

Why can't all the students who have completed 90+% of the curriculum and do not need points (like work or apprenticeships, etc) and have particpated in school for the last two years - this is easily checked by the school's records - get given a pass Leaving Certificate. No other grade just a pass to allow them to get on with their lives.

There is approximately 46,000 sitting LC this year. Of those possibly 50% go to college, the rest work, apprenticeships etc.
So that is approximately 23,000 children to sit the LC. Much easier to accommodate with social isolating than double that amount.

Or they can give everyone a LC and get the children going to college to do matriculation - which is what we all used to do.

I think the above options are better than saying to children, sit in limbo, have no holiday and keep studying just in case we do have the exam. And if you wanted to go to work, tough, sit at home on your own - which eventually will be for 5 months - and then perform at your best for the most important exam of your 12 years of school.

Madness and don't even get me started on their mental, the lack of wifi to participate in online learning, children who have special needs.

Don't know where you are getting your figures from, but they are incorrect. 61,000 students are due to sit the LC this year.

https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2020-press-releases/PR20-03-19.html

Also 44,000 students went to third level last year. Out of approximately 61,000 students who sat LC in 2019. That's nearly three quarters. Some more would have continued to do PLCs (and some PLC colleges require a Leaving Cert).... and some of those students who go working now or do an apprenticeship will come back to education at some point and might want a Leaving Cert to access that education.

Why should they be done out of a proper Leaving Cert and be asked to make a decision now that could affect their access to education down the line? You are suggesting that the most disadvantaged students (academically and often socially) be given some mickey mouse bit of paper that says they attended, but still run the LC for the more academically able students.

Frankly I'm not sure how you could disadvantage students more than by this suggestion.

Dickie10

I was just going to say this, that would be a crazy thing to do. How in Gods name would you know when you might want a LC. I did a trade for 6 years after the Leaving Cert and now im a secondary teacher. You never know when these students need their Leaving Cert.

History Queen

Posting this with the caveat that the exams absolutely should not go ahead if not safe to do so. I am not qualified to make that call and indeed that is one reason why we are in this situation, the call cannot be made yet.

I do worry though for how desperate some students are to cancel the exams. While that's obviously an attractive short term solution I don't think they're looking at the biggger picture and while this year is horrendous for them in many ways , their lack of resilience is worrying too. Dealing with stress and the unexpected is a lifeskill we all have to learn.

Not getting the points/course you want because you struggled with these circumstances would be so difficult. Not getting the points/course you want because you never got a chance to sit the exam/someone else predicted your grade would arguably be even more difficult.

At the end of the day a lot of subjects have courses 90% completed if not finished already. Those doing music and or languages already have a passing grade secured (I understand the inherent inequality of this situation and think treating other projects/practicals the same might help a little).

On the other hand, students all have 2 extra months to study and yes independent study is challenging, (they do have access to and help from teachers although I understand this isn't perfect either) but those planning on going to 3rd level in Autumn are going to have to get used to independent study then anyway.

I'm not denying it is awful and unfair but I'm not sure there is a better solution given the circumstances we are in. I pity the decision makers in the department of education, there's no easy solve to this one.

It wasnt me123

rainbowtrout wrote: »

....]

...... Some more would have continued to do PLCs (and some PLC colleges require a Leaving Cert).... and some of those students who go working now or do an apprenticeship .....

....You are suggesting that the most disadvantaged students (academically and often socially) be given some mickey mouse bit of paper that says they attended, but still run the LC for the more academically able students.
.

Clearly you didn't read my post properly - I said give ALL the children a pass LC (if they fulfill the criteria I mentioned), if they want it so that they have a LC (not a mickey mouse piece of paper) so they can do PLC courses, work or apprenticeships and get on with their lives.

Then do exams, when safe to do so, for the children that want to go to college for points - there is no other reason to sit exams only for points. Personally I think they should do a matriculation exam for college entry - like we used to.

It wasnt me123

Dickie10 wrote: »

I was just going to say this, that would be a crazy thing to do. How in Gods name would you know when you might want a LC. I did a trade for 6 years after the Leaving Cert and now im a secondary teacher. You never know when these students need their Leaving Cert.

I said GIVE THEM ALL a LC based on their attendance over the last two years, their completion of the curriculum, etc.

Read the post.

Purefrank128

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I said GIVE THEM ALL a LC based on their attendance over the last two years, their completion of the curriculum, etc.

Read the post.

I think the point that people are making is that 50K+ students need and want a LC with, you know, actual results.

In the modern era, for the vast majority of students, just having a piece of paper saying they passed the LC would be of little or no use. They need results in all their subjects.

University matriculation exams ended almost 30 years ago for most institutions. Bringing them back would not solve the problems of having thousands of students sitting in exam halls for hours and having those exams marked properly and quickly.

Bringing back matriculation exams would, however, mean that universities would be writing exam papers in a rush to assess a curriculum with which they are unfamiliar, with the attendant poor quality exams/marking evident in matriculation exams when they were run prior to 1992.

randylonghorn

Except no matter how you dressed it up, affixed red seals and posh signatures to it, it_wasn't, employers etc. would never see it as a "real" Leaving Cert.

It's a bit like having a sports day and giving all the kids gold medals. That's fine when they're 5 or 6 and you just want to encourage them, and reward them for participation. But even they begin to see through it soon enough, let alone those around them.

Excuse my French, but it's a really sh***y way to reward youngsters who have worked hard and done their best to pass or get a fairly decent LC, regardless of whether they're going on to college or not.

Mind you, if things really go to hell in a handbag over the summer, we might find ourselves landed with choices which aren't much better! I'm slightly more optimistic, but we'll have to wait and see.

And I do most definitely sympathise with your underlying concerns about your daughter etc., and fully understand that you're just trying to figure out a better way going forward, just like everyone else in this thread.

annamarie2013

Rumblings on the radio and in the paper this morning that our Minister might not be in the final line up after the upcoming cabinet reshuffle.