Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

km79 wrote: »

Took me 45 minutes to articulate all my concerns and general grievances !

The response I received (I won’t be sharing it to be fair to the union rep who responded to me ) doesnt fill me with great confidence
Prepare to work in July would be my guess at the outcome

mirrorwall14

I think there are two things out of all the stuff coming out that have incredibly annoyed me in their complete ignorance/unfairness.

The first is that some practicals got 100% and others are still hanging over students head. There is literally nothing more to say on this. It should not happen.

The second is the proposal for third years is insane. All of it. Completely unfair on 15 year olds to expect them to sit any sort of exams or assessment having been out of the classroom all the way to September. I think it is a total disgrace that any Minister for education would inflict this on students

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I think there are two things out of all the stuff coming out that have incredibly annoyed me in their complete ignorance/unfairness.

The first is that some practicals got 100% and others are still hanging over students head. There is literally nothing more to say on this. It should not happen.

The second is the proposal for third years is insane. All of it. Completely unfair on 15 year olds to expect them to sit any sort of exams or assessment having been out of the classroom all the way to September. I think it is a total disgrace that any Minister for education would inflict this on students

I made those two points
I expect both will eventually be rectified
And the payoff will be at least two weeks “classroom instruction “ in July . Possibly the whole month
And it won’t be voluntary

Going on the TUI msg the SEC will probably have to look for volunteers to cover exams, if they go ahead at all. I doubt there will be any money to pay people to do it.

Classes in July also don't seem to be covered by contract so you'll do them if you want to, or if you feel there is a need to.

Some will be in a position to volunteer and some won't.

edit: behind it all, it's just hard to see how these exams will go ahead. Students or teachers with health conditions would be in a terrible position outside of the stress this is causing students in general

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Going on the TUI msg the SEC will probably have to look for volunteers to cover exams, if they go ahead at all. I doubt there will be any money to pay people to do it.

I see/hear nothing in the TUI message implying the need for volunteers in an unpaid sense. What in the message made you think that is likely?

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I see/hear nothing in the TUI message implying the need for volunteers in an unpaid sense. What in the message made you think that is likely?

"Then the LC exams will begin. The superintending and marking of the exams is SEC work, and those who wish to carry out this work will do so under contract to the SEC."

It's not part of your job, the SEC is a separate entity, so you'd have to engage separately with them as a volunteer I'd assume.

I would assume unpaid as the country wouldn't be able to afford money for that number of people. Or public perception wud be teachers getting paid overtime in current climate regardless of whether nurses or guards are claiming overtime at the moment.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

"Then the LC exams will begin. The superintending and marking of the exams is SEC work, and those who wish to carry out this work will do so under contract to the SEC."

It's not part of your job, the SEC is a separate entity, so you'd have to engage separately with them as a volunteer I'd assume.

I would assume unpaid as the country wouldn't be able to afford money to that number of people. Or public perception wud be teachers getting paid overtime in current climate regardless of whether nurses or guards are claiming overtime at the moment.

I'm with you on their implying it will remain voluntary as it always has been. I don't think the second part necessarily follows though. I was just confused how the TUI statement led you think anything like that, since they basically just said SEC will contract staff as normal.

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I'm with you on their implying it will remain voluntary as it always has been. I don't think the second part necessarily follows though. I was just confused how the TUI statement led you think anything like that, since they basically just said SEC will contract staff as normal.

They didn't say as normal tho, just that your contract for exams is with the SEC. I don't see them paying the increased number of supervisors, over a longer period than is usual, that will be needed in thole current climate. Just my impression of it, we all could be wrong.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

They didn't say as normal tho, just that your contract for exams is with the SEC. I don't see them paying the increased number of supervisors, over a longer period than is usual, that will be needed in thole current climate. Just my impression of it, we all could be wrong.

The TUI have said the intention is the JC supervisors will be used to accommodate the LC under the new circumstances. Not an increased number of supervisors, just both of the usual groups looking after the LC.

Jajadog

Does anyone know what might happen if a student becomes ill or suffers a bereavement in their Family during the exams? I know there was an option brought in to sit the exams in July ( under normal circumstances obviously) however my concern now would be that there may be quite a few students who will either get sick or suffer bereavements during the exams in July/ August considering the situation we’re in. Has the minister made any reference to that potential cohort does anyone know?

Mardy Bum

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

The TUI have said the intention is the JC supervisors will be used to accommodate the LC under the new circumstances. Not an increased number of supervisors, just both of the usual groups looking after the LC.

Most schools are already at capacity in terms of classroom availability without even bringing social distancing in so there won't be more supervisors. If hotels will are to be used this may require extra supervisors.

High possibility the LC won't even happen I feel unless things change hugely.

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

The TUI have said the intention is the JC supervisors will be used to accommodate the LC under the new circumstances. Not an increased number of supervisors, just both of the usual groups looking after the LC.

Dunno, some might withdraw their application to cover exams, especially if an applicant is older or with an underlying health condition. They'll prob need more, time will tell if they'll be working on a voluntary basis.

Time will tell.

Purefrank128

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

It's not part of your job, the SEC is a separate entity, so you'd have to engage separately with them as a volunteer I'd assume. I would assume unpaid.

SEC work is, like all non-slave work, voluntary. Furthermore, it has always been paid work - is there something that makes you think that it wont be paid work this year, apart from the financial situation in the country?

If the finances in the country are such that the SEC can't pay contract staff (i.e. superintendents and examiners) then we would be in a situation where the State would not be paying it's public servants, I assume. I have heard no suggestion that we are in any danger of anything approaching that situation.

CraftySue

Jajadog wrote: »

Does anyone know what might happen if a student becomes ill or suffers a bereavement in their Family during the exams? I know there was an option brought in to sit the exams in July ( under normal circumstances obviously) however my concern now would be that there may be quite a few students who will either get sick or suffer bereavements during the exams in July/ August considering the situation we’re in. Has the minister made any reference to that potential cohort does anyone know?

He did mention it, and said they were looking into the finer details on how best to accommodate this.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Most schools are already at capacity in terms of classroom availability without even bringing social distancing in so there won't be more supervisors. If hotels will are to be used this may require extra supervisors.

High possibility the LC won't even happen I feel unless things change hugely.

Yes, I think alternative venues may be required when reasonable accommodations centres are brought into the equation, but I don't understand how there wouldn't be more supervisors if the JC exams are not running in parallel? Can you clarify what you mean by that?

I myself am sceptical it will all go ahead, but hopeful it will - though the practical exam situation is simply untenable I think.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Most schools are already at capacity in terms of classroom availability without even bringing social distancing in so there won't be more supervisors. If hotels will are to be used this may require extra supervisors.

High possibility the LC won't even happen I feel unless things change hugely.

I just don’t see it working

Purefrank128 wrote: »

SEC work is, like all non-slave work, voluntary. Furthermore, it has always been paid work - is there something that makes you think that it wont be paid work this year, apart from the financial situation in the country?

If the finances in the country are such that the SEC can't pay contract staff (i.e. superintendents and examiners) then we would be in a situation where the State would not be paying it's public servants, I assume. I have heard no suggestion that we are in any danger of anything approaching that situation.

Only guessing, think they'll look for people to volunteer. This goes on as long as it looks like it might, we're possibly looking at paycuts next budget too.

Hope I'm wrong

Millem

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Only guessing, think they'll look for people to volunteer. This goes on as long as it looks like it might, we're possibly looking at paycuts next budget too.

Hope I'm wrong

The days will be shorter though so much less subsistence will need to paid out. I earn more in mileage and subsistence then the net amount for a daily rate of superintending exams. If there is only 1 exam per day, some days no subsistence will be paid (for a number of superintendents).

Millem wrote: »

The days will be shorter though so much less subsistence will need to paid out. I earn more in mileage and subsistence then the net amount for a daily rate of superintending exams. If there is only 1 exam per day, some days no subsistence will be paid (for a number of superintendents).

Be interesting to see how it'll work alright, if at all.

Less on subsistence and mileage but more days and people to pay so dunno. Sneaky feeling it'll be sold as a donning the green jersey for Ireland effort.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

"Then the LC exams will begin. The superintending and marking of the exams is SEC work, and those who wish to carry out this work will do so under contract to the SEC."

It's not part of your job, the SEC is a separate entity, so you'd have to engage separately with them as a volunteer I'd assume.

I would assume unpaid as the country wouldn't be able to afford money for that number of people. Or public perception wud be teachers getting paid overtime in current climate regardless of whether nurses or guards are claiming overtime at the moment.

Ya that just means the same as normal. If you sign up to work for the SEC you will get paid for the work. Nobody is forcing you to do it. That's the voluntary element of it.

The SEC have the same number of scripts to mark for LC as they did before this all started. It'll probably cost them more in terms of extra supervisors but they won't be asking people to do it for free. Nobody would be that nuts to sign up for free. They have a budget for it, why do you think this would suddenly disappear?

Millem

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya that just means the same as normal. If you sign up to work for the SEC you will get paid for the work. Nobody is forcing you to do it. That's the voluntary element of it.

The SEC have the same number of scripts to mark for LC as they did before this all started. It'll probably cost them more in terms of extra supervisors but they won't be asking people to do it for free. Nobody would be that nuts to sign up for free. They have a budget for it, why do you think this would suddenly disappear?

It won’t even be worth it financially for a lot of people because days will be shorter. I would have to pay more out to a babysitter. I am due at the end of August so too risky anyway!

Jajadog wrote: »

Does anyone know what might happen if a student becomes ill or suffers a bereavement in their Family during the exams? I know there was an option brought in to sit the exams in July ( under normal circumstances obviously) however my concern now would be that there may be quite a few students who will either get sick or suffer bereavements during the exams in July/ August considering the situation we’re in. Has the minister made any reference to that potential cohort does anyone know?

I would presume the bereavement exam could be factored in for early September if it was already planned for July. SEC always run exam centres in hospitals as and when the need arises. This is run of the mill stuff for them. I'd imagine the same would happen this year. I'd hazard a guess that they'll automatically be factoring in hospital exam centres this year above any year.

A girl in my school about 10 years ago was sitting her Junior Cert when her mother was dying. She sat the first couple of days in the school, then she had to go to Dublin as the family were called to the hospital, the SEC set up a centre for her there for her exams, after the funeral she came back to school and was able to resume her exams there. They do make the effort to accommodate students, this year it might be a bit more stretched but I can't see why the option wouldn't be there.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Only guessing, think they'll look for people to volunteer. This goes on as long as it looks like it might, we're possibly looking at paycuts next budget too.

Hope I'm wrong

Oh FFS. It's paid work, it always had been. You're scaremongering out of nothing.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Be interesting to see how it'll work alright, if at all.

Less on subsistence and mileage but more days and people to pay so dunno. Sneaky feeling it'll be sold as a donning the green jersey for Ireland effort.

Dunno if you've ever actually done any of this work, but if you have you'll know that it lays out clearly on the application forms what the rates of pay and subsistence are. You are applying for the work on that basis. If they offer you a position, that constitutes a contract. They are not going to turn around suddenly and ask people to do the work for free, it's hard enough to get people to do the work when it's paid. Your comments belong on the daily mail.

Subsistence and mileage will vary from examiner to examiner but in terms of supervision examiners are paid per exam. So doing two exams in one day is the same as doing one exam per day for two days.

Also subsistence and mileage rates are uniform across the public sector. You can't just go changing them on a whim.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh FFS. It's paid work, it always had been. You're scaremongering out of nothing.

Just discussing what may or may not happen so keep your FFS, tnx

I think they might struggle to get volunteers for supervising a special centre in a hospital for a coronavirus patient though! Not exactly the same as the usual hospital cases where risks to those in attendance would be low.

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I think they might struggle to get volunteers for supervising a special centre in a hospital for a coronavirus patient though! Not exactly the same as the usual hospital cases where risks to those in attendance would be low.

Ya that is a very distinct possibility. Although at least the corona virus cases for teenagers are relatively low. I would presume any teacher supervising in a hospital would be provided with PPE.

Then again if a person is serious enough to be hospitalised with C19 they may not be well enough to sit an exam.

Looking at the most up to date stats from the Dept of Health 1849 cases needed to be hospitalised. Of these 44 are in the 15-24 bracket. If you were to assume that they are distributed evenly across that age range there are probably 8-ish 17-18 year olds in that group. Assuming we will be well past the peak by the end of July/early August there may be little to no Leaving Cert corona virus cases hospitalised at that point. I'd imagine it would be perfectly possibly to set a student up in an office style room with windows so they could sit the exam in isolation and the examiner could sit outside and minimise contact.

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Just discussing what may or may not happen so keep your FFS, tnx

Well you're just making stuff up without any substance to it. That is as I already said, scaremongering.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Oh FFS. It's paid work, it always had been. You're scaremongering out of nothing.

They will have huge difficulty recruiting now more than ever . He has a point.
But sure according to the unions they wont come looking for more.........I wonder will they approach the INTO membership to do their bit for the "national interest" as our union is putting it........Wouldn't be one bit suprised with anything at this stage