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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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CWF

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That isn't what was proposed. It was proposed that practical exams take place as part of the main exam timetable in August, so Art, Engineering, Construction, Ag Science would fit in there. My guess is that because there is always a two week window to complete these practicals in May, that similar would happen in August. So a school's construction practical would take place on the day that no construction student has a particular subject, e.g. Home Economics, given that we are led to believe that there will be only one written exam per day.

That would work, the biggest issue there would be the need for practical examiners to assess around the country, as they wouldn't be available to supervise exams. I presume this is why they want the examiners who usually supervise JC to be used.

It was my understanding that the LC Practicals would take place in that two week period

Millem

OP if you want to be on payroll you will need to come in or doing whatever we are asked to do.

If what is being proposed goes ahead.....we will all be going in to supervise as students will be divided into smaller groups. I don’t teach 6th years. I teach an option subject so the class could be divided up to OL and HL etc. Or I could take some AEN students and do extra work with them....even exam prep/timing etc in general.

I have been taking parental leave this year (term time) and it still stands....so not getting paid when on parental leave and not working on parental leave days.

We have a few teachers coming back after Easter from maternity leave....they will be taking over online teaching.

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

It’s just unworkable
All of it
But focusing on just this aspect of it

It is inequitable
The “practical “ aspect of Irish and the foreign languages had 100% of marks awarded
Music the same

I am actually despairing at the compete and utter shambles of a “plan” the Dept/Minister have come up with
Who exactly is advising them/him
Depressing and scary

Can’t wait to see what happens if things continue to go pear shaped and July/Aug is a non runner

Remote practicals over Zoom maybe

Tbh I think this is a court case waiting to happen and I do not see why the minister has taken this stance. Music and Home ec get 100%. But just because I picked technology I had to do an extra exam on top of my subjects on top of all the stress of moving the leaving cert. this is fundamentally unfair and I underperformed as a result....

sullivlo

I would contact the principal and ask.

A friend of mine was covering a maternity contract last year and it also ended in May and the school were in a position to pay her for the month and the returning teacher took the non-academic classes back.

kippy

awny wrote: »

I’d say keep an eye on developments. I’d imagine that it will be negotiated with the department re paying subs to work during the summer. Teachers in parental leave, maternity leave, sick leave etc are all in the same boat.

To be honest, it would be very disruptive for pupils to have a new teacher for 2 weeks.

Very disruptive? Relative to what's going on at the moment it's not gonna effect them and sure in normal times isn't this a regular enough occurance?

rainbowtrout

CWF wrote: »

When are they supposed to do their practicals, September?

I don't know, this is a thread about LC Assessments and we haven't been given any detail about JC assessments only that anything related to JC will be done in September, so no point discussing how JC assessment would be done in the middle of July when they are not being done in July.

awny

I’d say keep an eye on developments. I’d imagine that it will be negotiated with the department re paying subs to work during the summer. Teachers in parental leave, maternity leave, sick leave etc are all in the same boat.

To be honest, it would be very disruptive for pupils to have a new teacher for 2 weeks.

mirrorwall14

The junior cycle continuous assessment list must be mental too

3rd years: assessment tasks for English, Science, Business Studies, Modern Foreign Languages and Irish was March 23rd. May not be completed. Project work for Metalwork, Technology, Materials Technology, Religion and Art. Metal work practicals

So they come back to do the official exams (albeit marked by us) and all of this.....

There will be knock on effects to second year too....

2nd years: English, Science, Business Studies, Modern Foreign Languages, Visual Art, Maths, Music, History, Geography, Home Economics. CBA1 deadlines were in May. Do they go in that September too?

rainbowtrout

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm thinking since Friday about how implausible it is for schools to have all assessments and practicals done in a 2 week block.

That isn't what was proposed. It was proposed that practical exams take place as part of the main exam timetable in August, so Art, Engineering, Construction, Ag Science would fit in there. My guess is that because there is always a two week window to complete these practicals in May, that similar would happen in August. So a school's construction practical would take place on the day that no construction student has a particular subject, e.g. Home Economics, given that we are led to believe that there will be only one written exam per day.

That would work, the biggest issue there would be the need for practical examiners to assess around the country, as they wouldn't be available to supervise exams. I presume this is why they want the examiners who usually supervise JC to be used.

CWF

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Junior Certs aren't coming back in the summer.

When are they supposed to do their practicals, September?

rainbowtrout

CWF wrote: »

LC Engineering Project deadline was March 6th so tools are down there. You can add the JC Metalwork practical to be done in that two week time frame

Junior Certs aren't coming back in the summer.

rainbowtrout

If you're finished your maternity leave in May, then you are back on the payroll and available for work.

History Queen

Hi, I don't have any specific information but I would imagine that you are taking over as would be the norm at any other time of year. Your sub will be going off payroll.

Msbookeeper

Hi all, I'm due to finish my maternity leave at the end of May, any one have guidance about teachers in that situation? Will I be taking over from my sub for the summer? Or return in September?

Millem

I can’t even see them having enough superintendents to supervise all these exams especially in Dublin where they are generally short.
Also having no childcare will only add to the shortage.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

I wonder do unions know this is all a non runner and will probably be just written exams hence why there is little discussion.

I wonder how much of it is just put out there as “bargaining chips “ so the union can be seen to get some “wins”
Call me a sceptic but ........
I think what may happen is
Practicals go
JC goes
June 15- July 15 “communication time “ goes
All to be replaced by
4 weeks of “classroom tuition “ for the month of July

All dependent on the health of the nation of course ......

r93kaey5p2izun

Also LCA Engineering and Graphics&Construction briefs need to be completed. This is not mentioned at all in the DES statement.

TheDriver

I wonder do unions know this is all a non runner and will probably be just written exams hence why there is little discussion.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

2 weeks is tight. A lot could be done in tandem but a good few of the above requires a teacher to be seconded. There's a lot of fantasy.....

It’s just unworkable
All of it
But focusing on just this aspect of it

It is inequitable
The “practical “ aspect of Irish and the foreign languages had 100% of marks awarded
Music the same

I am actually despairing at the compete and utter shambles of a “plan” the Dept/Minister have come up with
Who exactly is advising them/him
Depressing and scary

Can’t wait to see what happens if things continue to go pear shaped and July/Aug is a non runner

Remote practicals over Zoom maybe

r93kaey5p2izun

LCA Orals and LCA practical performance exams in Hair&Beauty, Ag/Hort, HCT, Office Admin, Leisure.

Aso, a lot of 5th Year LCAs do Irish and/or MFL as a single year course and sit the exam at the end of 5th Year. Are they to come in in July too?

And what about 5th Year LCA tasks? Would they just be pushed out to the next session?

TheDriver

2 weeks is tight. A lot could be done in tandem but a good few of the above requires a teacher to be seconded. There's a lot of fantasy.....

rainbowtrout

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
There can’t be any clashes

No I didn't mean that they should run at the same time, I meant one in the morning and one in the afternoon. I was just picking physics as an example. There are plenty of subjects which have small enough numbers which would mean the number of students who would sit two exams on one day (and be hanging around during the lunch break) would be small enough.

I'm going to take a wild guess that the numbers taking home economics and DCG probably don't overlap too much. Wouldn't be too hard to pick subjects with small number of overlapping students to try and get two subjects done on some days, if the current proposal is to have only one exam per day.

km79

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
There can’t be any clashes

2 physics
2 chemistry
5 biology
2 geography
1 applied maths in our school

Inspector Coptoor

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya I don't see any reason not to have two subjects in a day even if the core (English, Irish, Maths) were 1 per day for the first few days. All the rest are choice subjects, and once you get some of the more popular ones out of the way like Biology, French, Geography, there's no reason you couldn't have two in a day. I teach Physics and it's a small subject and would have small enough classes around the country. Can't imagine there's any school with more than one LC class. No reason that couldn't be paired with Geography or something similar where the chances of a large cohort of students doing both is small by virtue of the fact that Physics classes are smaller anyway. Same with lots of the random minority subjects like Latin, Italian, Applied Maths etc.

School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
There can’t be any clashes

CWF

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm thinking since Friday about how implausible it is for schools to have all assessments and practicals done in a 2 week block.

Was trying to make a list about what might happen when.

Mid July - in 2 weeks we have:
Computer Science Project
Engineering Project finished
Engineering Practical
History booklet
Geography booklet
Ag Science booklet
Art
PE performance test
Construction
Religion
Politics and Society

All the while teaching blocks?

August - extra exams to be timetabled:
Computer Science Exam
LCVP Exam
LCA ICT Exam
LCA Tasks Interviews

This is far from a complete list but I'd love if others added to it, just to see how hair brained it is when it's all put together.

LC Engineering Project deadline was March 6th so tools are down there. You can add the JC Metalwork practical to be done in that two week time frame

deiseindublin

I'm thinking since Friday about how implausible it is for schools to have all assessments and practicals done in a 2 week block.

Was trying to make a list about what might happen when.

Mid July - in 2 weeks we have:
Computer Science Project
Engineering Project finished
Engineering Practical
History booklet
Geography booklet
Ag Science booklet
Art
PE performance test
Construction
Religion
Politics and Society

All the while teaching blocks?

August - extra exams to be timetabled:
Computer Science Exam
LCVP Exam
LCA ICT Exam
LCA Tasks Interviews

This is far from a complete list but I'd love if others added to it, just to see how hair brained it is when it's all put together.

Rosita

Mehan2000 wrote: »

How will they facilitate junior cert exams if half of third years do TY and half do fifth year?

I think schools will have to hold the exams more or less straightaway at the start of the year (if there isn't too much talk of molly-coddling them for a few weeks beforehand) and defer the other students coming back for a week or two. It'd be mad to form TY and Fifth Year classes (well actually forming them is no harm) - but not much point in doing so and then creating disruption and hassle to timetabled classes.

On the other hand there looks like a good chance students will be coming in on a part-time piecemeal basis in September anyway so organising the exams might be less hassle than if the school was trying to be up and running fully with a full cohort of students.

All that said, the Dept statement said they would send out the papers and if that's the case the exams will gave to be timetabled the same in every school if the exam is not to be leaked far and wide. They also want assessment tasks/projects completed with no mention of when. That's one if the enormously ill-thought out issues raised by that the Dept statement re. the JC. Though I suppose it is only a proposal albeit a publicly-announced one.

alroley

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's too heavy going in the first three days. Both English papers used to be on the same day until 2009, until an examiner gave out Paper 2 in the morning instead of Paper 1, realised his mistake a couple of minutes later but students had seen some of the questions. He should have run the exam and the students be kept in with no contact with outside (no phones at lunch, lunch brought into them etc) and run paper 1 in the afternoon. He didn't do that, he didn't inform the SEC and a student from the school when they left English Paper 1 tweeted about Paper 2 and that's how the SEC found out. Paper 2 for the afternoon was cancelled and a new paper was run on the Saturday. Think it cost the SEC around €1 million to re-run the exam.

After that English was split over two days to prevent that happening again. Irish and Maths were already on separate days so the issue wouldn't arise. Splitting of English would have been welcomed anyway as it's a very heavy day with 5 or so hours of writing, so it was a welcome decision overall I think.

I did my LC that year and paper 2 was already meant to be on a different day because I remember finding out later that evening that it had been moved to Saturday.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya that part was conspicuously absent.

To be honest I don’t think there’s going to be any discussion about the ridiculousness that is the junior cert proposal until the LC is clarified and a bit more set up

RH149

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's too heavy going in the first three days. Both English papers used to be on the same day until 2009, until an examiner gave out Paper 2 in the morning instead of Paper 1, realised his mistake a couple of minutes later but students had seen some of the questions. He should have run the exam and the students be kept in with no contact with outside (no phones at lunch, lunch brought into them etc) and run paper 1 in the afternoon. He didn't do that, he didn't inform the SEC and a student from the school when they left English Paper 1 tweeted about Paper 2 and that's how the SEC found out. Paper 2 for the afternoon was cancelled and a new paper was run on the Saturday. Think it cost the SEC around €1 million to re-run the exam.

After that English was split over two days to prevent that happening again. Irish and Maths were already on separate days so the issue wouldn't arise. Splitting of English would have been welcomed anyway as it's a very heavy day with 5 or so hours of writing, so it was a welcome decision overall I think.

English had already been split before that- I remember telling my English class that for once the Dept of Ed had seen sense and acknowledged that two English papers on one day was far too much writing. That was why the mistake with the examiner accidentally giving out the wrong paper couldn't be rectified...it wasn't a matter of holding the students in the centre over lunch, he would have had to hold them there overnight as English P2 was scheduled for the following afternoon. Rescheduling for Saturday and using the back up paper was the only option.

I don't supervise for the State exams but ever since that disaster I don't just double check I triple check any mock papers before i hand them out!