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Home heating automation

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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deezell wrote: »

More than likely. Letting it drain it's internal battery is like a cold start, removing the battery would have the same effect, though would void warranty. At least it didn't end up as a pretty papepweight

Yeah I was cagey about removing the battery while it was still in warranty so I figured this was the next best thing. If it happens again I'll get on to them for a replacement.

More than likely. Letting it drain it's internal battery is like a cold start, removing the battery would have the same effect, though would void warranty. At least it didn't end up as a pretty papepweight

deezell wrote: »

In that case just invoke the warranty. Could jusr be a dud.

I actually managed to get my dead nest going again this morning surprisingly. I left it off the stand and unplugged for over a day until there was no blinking lights at all on it (it was blinking red for a good while). Then I plugged it in to a USB phone charger and left if for two days. Still no sign of life apart from the blinking green lgiht started up again. I stuck it on the stand this morning though and within a few seconds the little house logo appeared and it powered back up and reconnected.

Seems to be working fine now again. I don't know did it just get stuck doing an update or what.

championc wrote: »

Wow, many thanks for that huge and concise answer. That's provided me with a lot of direction.

One final question if I may - would "smart" TRV's be much more accurate than my current ones ? Or is it more about being able to control rads in an instant, being able to lower, raise, or shut them off ?

Using Tado as an example, their wall stats have a granularity of 0.1°, TRVs are 1°. Normal mechanical stats require about plus or minus 3° to throw a switch. Mechanical TRVs are more analogue, closing the valve as the temperature rises and the active sensor material expands. Smart TRVs replicate this, but but using second order calculations will anticipate rising (or falling) room temperature by learning rate of change of temperature, and respond according to the brands own algorithms. That way the room is not cycling hot-cold. I had some great lecturers on dynamic control systems back in the 70's, it's a whole science in itself. Kind of stuff you never forget.

Wow, many thanks for that huge and concise answer. That's provided me with a lot of direction.

One final question if I may - would "smart" TRV's be much more accurate than my current ones ? Or is it more about being able to control rads in an instant, being able to lower, raise, or shut them off ?

The only wiring necessary would be to bring back a switched live output from the Sunvic valve relay to fire the boiler for an upstairs timed event. This would give the upstairs a degree of independence from any timed downstairs events, though with your current setup, downstairs would now heat for both it's own and upstairs timed events, limited by the rad TRVs. If you were to install a general smart stat for the downstairs, and smart TRVs for the downstairs rads, it would now be possible to have independent control of downstairs as a zone, as the addition of the smart TRVs together act as a downstairs zone valve. This would be an easier installation option than having another zone valve fitted to isolate the downstairs CH flow. A single zone thermostat and receiver could be installed for general control of downstairs heating, with smart TRVs paired to this zone to call the boiler on an individual room basis through the stat relay. For upstairs, a similar setup, with a general thermostat operating the upstairs zone valve by its wireless relay, then a SL from the zone valve to call the boiler when the upstairs timing/temperature schedule dictates.
As the simplest option, you can replace your current timer with two smart stat receivers, Netatmo, Hive or Drayton Wiser. Tado also, but only one of these could be connected wirelessly to the receiver to fire the boiler, the other would need to be wired to operate the zone valve at the minimum.
In all cases, the upstairs zone will depend on the downstairs being active to supply heat, so a SL return from the zone valve is necessary in order to call the boiler for upstairs events. Your current TRVs will continue to limit room temperature anyway, and any or all of these can be replaced by smart TRVs to obtain individual room call for heat, or to turn off a room while the zone is heating. If you add smart TRVs to all rads, you will only require a single main stat receiver relay, as the upstairs zone valve could now be locked open, with upstairs flow control individualised on a room basis.
Perhaps a good and inexpesive start might be the Drayton Wiser Kit 3, with 2 wireless stats and a heat hub receiver. This would be a simple DIY install. Progress then to wiring the zone valve to call for heat independent of downstairs timing. Next, adding finer control with smart TRVs and so on. While the option to hear upstairs without sending flow to downstairs rads would require the addition of another plumbed in zone valve to give proper S plan plumbing, or smart TRVs on all downstairs rads, it's probably not a huge issue, as it would be seldom you might want to heat upstairs while completely zoning out downstairs, so additional plumbing probably not needed. You have the luxury of having existing TRV valve bodies already installed on your rads, reducing the cost of individual smart room control to the price of a DIY installed smart TRV, €60 per room more or less as offers appear. Start by looking at the smart stat brands listed above, all TRV capable, and figure out your preferences. For a full on TRV installation, the Honeywell Evohome packet might be attractive, if pricey. Posters here who have invested are very enthusiastic. You could spend hours just tinkering with the screen, instead of watching TV! If you're into smart home stuff, alarms, lights, cameras etc, you'll need to consider do you want a system that can have all these as extras on the brand app, or leave each to its own. Over to you now!

deezell wrote: »

So it depends on the CH timing to be on at the same time intervals in order to fire the boiler?

Correct. The heating must be on for the upstairs zone "switch" to do anything. I'm sure it can be re-wired if necessary. It's a Sunvic

championc wrote: »

I wired it myself when I installed the zone valve. It simply opens or closes on triggering, so does nothing with the system itself

So it depends on the CH timing to be on at the same time intervals in order to fire the boiler?

deezell wrote: »

So upstairs zone valve is on the HW timer, with boiler call/downstairs on the CH timer. I assume the boiler fires when an upstairs event occurs, and this is possible with those type of timers even when there is no direct connection to the boiler from zone valve switching, as by default these timers are supplied in gravity mode, (small switch at the back). What happens then is that the CH ON terminal goes live from a timed event from either zone, but the HW ON terminal is only used to operate the zone valve and bring in the upstairs rads. Normally, zone timers with a gravity mode are designed to be used with the CH circulation pump on zone 2, while zone timing 1 calls the boiler only thus heating HW by gravity, and CH if zone 1 has a timed event. It makes using smart controls with wireless stats a little trickier, as its not likely the zone valve relay microswitch is being used to call the boiler for upstairs events. If you want, you can check the back of the Grasslin to see if the switch is Gravity or Fully Pumped mode. This will determine if the zone fires the boiler independently of the CH terminal on the Grasslin, and will determine how it could be wired with smart stats and their relays.

I wired it myself when I installed the zone valve. It simply opens or closes on triggering, so does nothing with the system itself

So upstairs zone valve is on the HW timer, with boiler call/downstairs on the CH timer. I assume the boiler fires when an upstairs event occurs, and this is possible with those type of timers even when there is no direct connection to the boiler from zone valve switching, as by default these timers are supplied in gravity mode, (small switch at the back). What happens then is that the CH ON terminal goes live from a timed event from either zone, but the HW ON terminal is only used to operate the zone valve and bring in the upstairs rads. Normally, zone timers with a gravity mode are designed to be used with the CH circulation pump on zone 2, while zone timing 1 calls the boiler only thus heating HW by gravity, and CH if zone 1 has a timed event. It makes using smart controls with wireless stats a little trickier, as its not likely the zone valve relay microswitch is being used to call the boiler for upstairs events. If you want, you can check the back of the Grasslin to see if the switch is Gravity or Fully Pumped mode. This will determine if the zone fires the boiler independently of the CH terminal on the Grasslin, and will determine how it could be wired with smart stats and their relays.

deezell wrote: »

I'm assuming this Drayton timer is a two zone electronic timer. Can post it's model no, plus a picture. You have a combi boiler, (gas?), so again I assume no HW cylinder, HW on demand?

Apologies, the controller is a Grasslin QE2 and the TRV's are Myson (photos attached). And yes, HW is on demand. The Combi is a Vaillant Turbomax 824e

I'm assuming this Drayton timer is a two zone electronic timer. Can post it's model no, plus a picture. You have a combi boiler, (gas?), so again I assume no HW cylinder, HW on demand?

Hi all,

I have a Combi boiler and 10 rads. I have a single zone value fitted to the pipe connecting upstairs, so I can have downstairs or the whole house on. I currently have a Drayton timer, where the DHW connection controls the Upstairs facing zone valve. All 10 rads have TRV's. We have no room stat anywhere.

Is there any Smart system which is worth looking at ? I don't want anything which requires a subscription. Would digital TRV's be much better than analog / mechanical ? Are all of these Smart systems just designed to work with the boiler only and maybe just a few main TRV's

Thanks in advance

Mickeroo wrote: »

Cheers. It was installed by electric Ireland only a month ago so I would hope they'd replace it.

In that case just invoke the warranty. Could jusr be a dud.

deezell wrote: »

If it doesn't recharge and restart, the only other suggestion I can make at this stage is to open up the back cover, then the inner cover and remove the LiPo battery. If you have access to a multi meter check the terminal voltage on it. Should be 3.7V. If the battery is ok, unplugging for a while might be enough to reset the boot of the Nest. It's a long shot, but sometimes works on duff phones. Batteries are available on Amazon and elsewhere.

Cheers. It was installed by electric Ireland only a month ago so I would hope they'd replace it.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yeah have tried all that, there's no nest logo when it restarts. Just the blank screen and flashing light at the top. I think it's bricked itself somehow tbh.

It's currently plugged into a phone charger so will see does it manage to right itself over the course of the day.

If it doesn't recharge and restart, the only other suggestion I can make at this stage is to open up the back cover, then the inner cover and remove the LiPo battery. If you have access to a multi meter check the terminal voltage on it. Should be 3.7V. If the battery is ok, unplugging for a while might be enough to reset the boot of the Nest. It's a long shot, but sometimes works on duff phones. Batteries are available on Amazon and elsewhere.

51v5jEnbmkL._AC_SY400_.jpg

51v5jEnbmkL._AC_SY400_.jpg

Yeah have tried all that, there's no nest logo when it restarts. Just the blank screen and flashing light at the top. I think it's bricked itself somehow tbh.

It's currently plugged into a phone charger so will see does it manage to right itself over the course of the day.

Also from a search
How to manually restart if your Nest thermostat is frozen or stuck

Press your thermostat ring and hold it down until the screen turns off (about 10 seconds). Then let go of the ring.
Press and release the ring to turn it back on and complete the restart process. You'll see the Nest logo when it begins to start up.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Thanks Deezell. It's just showing as offline in the app at the moment, I tried restarting it manually by holding it down but nothing doing. I can see the screen is on in low light but it's just blank and the led is just blinking away. I left it off the stand for a bit and LED went red but goes back to green as soon as it's back on the stand.

THe light on the heat link is yellow btw so I think that means it doesn't see the stat.

So it's lost connection. The Nest is actually battery powered with a built in phone style lithium ion battery. This only lasts a couple of hours without being charged from the stand, then the stat will power off. It seems to be trying to power up from the stand, but not managing to get enough to boot up. Afaik any decent phone usb charger will power the nest, in case it's own power adapter has a poor connection. Also, does the existing adaptor plug into the stand? Iirc, the actual Nest also has a mini usb socket at the back, for direct connection. Check this out first.

Thanks Deezell. It's just showing as offline in the app at the moment, I tried restarting it manually by holding it down but nothing doing. I can see the screen is on in low light but it's just blank and the led is just blinking away. I left it off the stand for a bit and LED went red but goes back to green as soon as it's back on the stand.

THe light on the heat link is yellow btw so I think that means it doesn't see the stat.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Anyone ever had an issue with a nest thermostat where it's black screen with a small green light blinking at the top?

Google tells me the green light means it's updating software or restarting but it's been like that for a few hours now.

The wireless signal path between the nest and the Heatlink relay use NEST WEAVE protocol over BLE ( Blue tooth low energy protocol). This is a low enough bit rate transmission, so although the update rate available to the Nest via your home Wi-Fi is plenty fast, the two devices communicate at a much slower rate, so updates take a reasonable time if data has to be passed from the Nest (connected to Wi-Fi) to the Heatlink (BLE). It's generally ok to reboot the Nest if your Wi-Fi connection to it is ropey, even during an update, but first check your connectivity to the Nest via the app, see what it says.
The Tado thermostat for example, has the Wi-Fi connection in the bridge, while the stat only connects to the bridge using 6LoWPAN, a very low energy low bit rate connection, only Kilobits/sec. This is needed because the Tado runs on batteries, as do most other smart stats, so battery life is a priority. A new from the box Tado with old firmware can take overnight to update

Anyone ever had an issue with a nest thermostat where it's black screen with a small green light blinking at the top?

Google tells me the green light means it's updating software or restarting but it's been like that for a few hours now.

deezell wrote: »

Perfect plan. Cylinder Thermostat will keep cylinder topped up during the summer or winter, timer really only useful to knock the HW off during holidays, weekends away (☹), or if you have a badly insulated cylinder and only want HW in short timed spurts, 70's style.

Super - nah I think I'm taking your advice on the basis that it's easier to just heat the tank of water and keep it hot, unless as you say, we're away for an extended period.

Thanks a mill :-)

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi Deezell,

Yep so I do indeed have the Ext. Kit as I want Tado to handle the HW tank and stop ourselves using the immersion in the summer. At the moment we only have valves to control ground floor & 1st floor, with an open pipe all the way to the HW tank from the boiler. So we're planning to install a 3rd valve on the HW tank pipe so that can also be switched on/off by Tado.

We'll also use the Ext.Kit for our wireless stat on the ground floor, but we'll hardwire the landing one as we have an easy route down via the pipes to the Tado controller beside the boiler for that one.

Regards,

P.

Perfect plan. Cylinder Thermostat will keep cylinder topped up during the summer or winter, timer really only useful to knock the HW off during holidays, weekends away (☹), or if you have a badly insulated cylinder and only want HW in short timed spurts, 70's style.

deezell wrote: »

No, these are mechanical stats. Firstly, Tado will have nothing to do with their boiler call via their zone valve relay, UNLESS you get the Tado ext. kit and use it for HW timing. Regardless, the mechanical nature of the cylinder stat has a fair amount of hysteresis, that is, it will need to heat the water a good few degrees past the setting to cut out, then cool a good few degrees below to cut in again, say, set for 60°, it will heat till 63° ( timer permitting), cut the boiler, and will have to cool to 57° to turn on again.

Hi Deezell,

Yep so I do indeed have the Ext. Kit as I want Tado to handle the HW tank and stop ourselves using the immersion in the summer. At the moment we only have valves to control ground floor & 1st floor, with an open pipe all the way to the HW tank from the boiler. So we're planning to install a 3rd valve on the HW tank pipe so that can also be switched on/off by Tado.

We'll also use the Ext.Kit for our wireless stat on the ground floor, but we'll hardwire the landing one as we have an easy route down via the pipes to the Tado controller beside the boiler for that one.

Regards,

P.

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Awesome, thank you for that.

One other question. Am I missing something, or will Tado not keep firing the boiler every time the tank drops even 1 deg below the set temp on that Thermostat? Say I set it to 60 deg, if the tank drops to 59 deg, will it fire the boiler to bring it back up again?

Cheers

No, these are mechanical stats. Firstly, Tado will have nothing to do with their boiler call via their zone valve relay, UNLESS you get the Tado ext. kit and use it for HW timing. Regardless, the mechanical nature of the cylinder stat has a fair amount of hysteresis, that is, it will need to heat the water a good few degrees past the setting to cut out, then cool a good few degrees below to cut in again, say, set for 60°, it will heat till 63° ( timer permitting), cut the boiler, and will have to cool to 57° to turn on again.

deezell wrote: »

Cylimder stat like this. You strap it to tank, if the tank is a foam insulated one you cut a stat shaped hole in it.
This is the only place I've found still delivering online sales. Woodie's, Screwfix were overwhelmed with onl8ne orders.
https://www.mcmahons.ie/cylinder-pipe-thermostat

Awesome, thank you for that.

One other question. Am I missing something, or will Tado not keep firing the boiler every time the tank drops even 1 deg below the set temp on that Thermostat? Say I set it to 60 deg, if the tank drops to 59 deg, will it fire the boiler to bring it back up again?

Cheers

Thanks for checking that - their video made it look so simple! Still not a big job I guess but I would get someone to do this for me rather than messing around with the wiring

https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/node/24

paddyb wrote: »

Thanks had a look at the Drayton site and it looks like their controller will slot on to the wiring back panel of the eph so no wiring will be needed

Looks can be deceptive. Drayton use the same backing plate as a 2 zone standard controller with the terminals reassigned. EPH use a backplate with 2 additional terminals for the extra zone.

WISER 3 ZONE

EPH3 ZONE

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Hi Deezell,

Sorry to dig up an old post. One thing I forgot to ask on this was what types of mechanical stats you would recommend for a HW tank? I don't have anything on my tank at the moment to regulate the temp, other than a big tap to open or close the amount of hot water fed into it and we've guessed the temp of the water by running the hot tap and measuring. I also agree that we probably don't need regular smart access to this information, just set it and leave it, and adjust it if going away or whatever. Do you have a particular one that you would recommend, as we are aiming to get our Tado and new valves installed in the coming months so we can have control over our heating, as over this winter it was all over the place!

Cheers

Paul.

Cylimder stat like this. You strap it to tank, if the tank is a foam insulated one you cut a stat shaped hole in it.
This is the only place I've found still delivering online sales. Woodie's, Screwfix were overwhelmed with onl8ne orders.
https://www.mcmahons.ie/cylinder-pipe-thermostat