Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is so embarrassing...Josepha retweeting the exact same tweet.

https://twitter.com/ciarakellydoc/status/1246429238317715457

Is that not Ciara Kelly, and yes it's not embarassing - it's still a stupid idea.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes...because I can accept that something I said was wrong and rethink. I didn't know that people sent out had to do 2 weeks quarantine nor that the pilots were not allowed off the plane until somebody said it here..so I do what I always do...I looked for another possibility/solution.
I didn't just throw my hands in the air and say...ah that can't be done.

You could just say the Governmen/HSE got this one right.

https://twitter.com/ciarakellydoc/status/1246429238317715457

This is so embarrassing...Josepha retweeting the exact same tweet.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I would have no doubt about it.

But if you know that and I know that, shouldn't somebody spending 200 million have known it too?

As I keep saying, we could have ended up with a much much higher or even total defective rate.

What measures have been put in place to ensure quality in subsequent orders would be good to know too.

But 'questioning' seems to be not allowable.

Of course they knew there is a risk with orders form China but anyone with experience in the industry would know that there isn't a lot you can do except check the order on delivery and liaise with the supplier to ensure the quality of subsequent orders and if that doesn't work maybe add financial penalties in the procurement contract and in the background try an find an alternative supplier.

But in a pandemic your hands are tied even more.

blackwhite wrote: »

Indeed. Applying the most basic aspect of critical thought or analysis does seem to be completely beyond you alright. We saw it before in your despicable defences of anti-vaxxers (but only Shinner anti-vaxxers mind). "I'm just asking questions" isn't a defence for proffering knowingly dangerous theories time and again.

Anyone with half a brain could have figured out that the 14-day quarantine being imposed by the Chinese would prevent flying out inspectors - all of course except our resident "businessman"

Your solution is to send out an inspection team and wait 2 weeks to get 75% of the consignment approved and shipped.

The simpler and safer solution - which was followed - was to take the delivery immediately and inspect it on arrival in Ireland and have use of the 75% of confirming PPE without delay.

But f*ck anyone who happens to die because of the delays by you "just asking questions" - right Francie? They're not as important as point-scoring for SF on the internet :rolleyes:

Pretty much. There's no end to easy answers SF won't promote.

blackwhite wrote: »

Usually people can last more than 2 hours without catching themselves in a lie.

That's not your original suggestion

Yes...because I can accept that something I said was wrong and rethink. I didn't know that people sent out had to do 2 weeks quarantine nor that the pilots were not allowed off the plane until somebody said it here..so I do what I always do...I looked for another possibility/solution.
I didn't just throw my hands in the air and say...ah that can't be done.

Yurt! wrote: »

If he made such a claim I'd agree with you, but I don't believe he did.

No, but is this really a situation where you want ambiguity - no context when you're providing information is probably not where we want to be.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

But the idea that a homemade mask, with no filter insert can stop you picking up the virus when its aersolised is a reckless one, and not something, I think, public reps should be encouraging.

If he made such a claim I'd agree with you, but I don't believe he did.

eastie17

Are balaclavas considered PPE? If they are I'd expect SF to step up and crack open that bunker with all the guns in it and the Northern Bank cash and hand it over to the HSE.
They could use some of the cash to buy more PPE from China as well

jh79 wrote: »

Unless you worked in the industry you wouldn't know this but in India and China it's like the wild west when it comes to supplying the medical / pharma industry.

Feckers in China once even built a fake second pharma plant exclusively for show to foreign regulators so they could get away with non-compliance in the real plant.

I know some of the counterfeit stuff we get sent to evaluate is almost indistinguishable from our own products - a few years ago we just had to worry about packaging being counterfeited, now its whole assemblies and components.....so I'm not sure how even a well trained team of auditors/assessors on an airport apron could even hope to inspect enough PPE, in sufficient detail to pass or reject a consignment - it's fantasyland stuff from people who have no clue how the real world runs.

tikkahunter

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WTF?

Where did I say anything about two weeks? I said we have people out there already with business expertise and who know and have dealt with companies there. Were they tasked to help here? Could they have helped?

With 200m at stake, we could just as easily ended up with none of it usable...is the point here. As other countries found to their cost...as posted by somebody last night, Finland's entire consignment was defective.

See the red herring is the gear was defective, none of the stuff we got was defective Francie, it was approved by the WHO , the main issue was some of the gowns where 3/4 length sleeve , obviously made for Chinese people or with a 3/4 length sleeve you would wear the longer gloves that go past the elbow but the gear was of a standard that complies with regulation. The stuff they where donated from the likes of that dick head Paddy Cosgrove (who was trying to act billy big balls) was sourced from alibaba and spurious sites was not up to standard, other countries fell into that trap in desperation, Spain for instance and Belgium. Then you see twitter stories where they say they got defective PPE from China , but not that they bought from spurious suppliers, that headline gets buried. We done very well to get the gear we did when demand is high and cut throat at the moment.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said we have people out there already with business expertise and who know and have dealt with companies there. Were they tasked to help here? Could they have helped?

Usually people can last more than 2 hours without catching themselves in a lie.

That's not your original suggestion

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Had it been me, knowing China's reputation for varying quality I'd have sent a team out there to inspect the product before accepting it. A bit of logistics required but certainly doable. The defective materials were discovered very quickly on arrival...that could have been picked up in China by random sampling.

jh79 wrote: »

Unless you worked in the industry you wouldn't know this but in India and China it's like the wild west when it comes to supplying the medical / pharma industry.

Feckers in China once even built a fake second pharma plant exclusively for show to foreign regulators so they could get away with non-compliance in the real plant.

I would have no doubt about it.

But if you know that and I know that, shouldn't somebody spending 200 million have known it too?

As I keep saying, we could have ended up with a much much higher or even total defective rate.

What measures have been put in place to ensure quality in subsequent orders would be good to know too.

But 'questioning' seems to be not allowable.

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're taking this. The professional on the podcast more or less said that the advice from the competent British authority on wearing homemade masks wasn't a bad one.

Just that it won't stop you picking up virus particles, which some commentators are suggesting - for example O'Rourke's tweet doesn't say "wear a maks if you are symptomatic or think you are infected" thus leaving the clear impression that a folded bandana will protect a healthy individual from contracting the virus.

The studies suggest surgical masks will limit the shedding of the virus (the Cowling study) and the PHE study suggests likewise and, additionally, that certain household materials may also hold some potential when it comes to limiting the shedding of the virus.

But the idea that a homemade mask, with no filter insert can stop you picking up the virus when its aersolised is a reckless one, and not something, I think, public reps should be encouraging.

jh79 wrote: »

Unless you worked in the industry you wouldn't know this but in India and China it's like the wild west when it comes to supplying the medical / pharma industry.

Feckers in China once even built a fake second pharma plant exclusively for show to foreign regulators so they could get away with non-compliance in the real plant.

I could tell you stories about this type of carry-on in China (regretfully from personal experience) but I'd be going way off topic

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WTF?

Where did I say anything about two weeks? I said we have people out there already with business expertise and who know and have dealt with companies there. Were they tasked to help here? Could they have helped?

With 200m at stake, we could just as easily ended up with none of it usable...is the point here. As other countries found to their cost...as posted by somebody last night, Finland's entire consignment was defective.

Unless you worked in the industry you wouldn't know this but in India and China it's like the wild west when it comes to supplying the medical / pharma industry.

Feckers in China once even built a fake second pharma plant exclusively for show to foreign regulators so they could get away with non-compliance in the real plant.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WTF?

You can try and deny your post history all you want. It's there for anyone to read back on your defence of anti-vaxxers who were "just asking questions"

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say anything about two weeks? I said we have people out there already with business expertise and who know and have dealt with companies there. Were they tasked to help here? Could they have helped?

With 200m at stake, we could just as easily ended up with none of it usable...is the point here. As other countries found to their cost...as posted by somebody last night, Finland's entire consignment was defective.

You advocated flying out inspectors - ignoring the fact that they'd be quarantined for 2 weeks as soon as they left the plane in China.

Of course - we could have dithered around as you advocate for 2 weeks, and have another country swoop in and divert our allocated supplies away to someone else (as Trump has been seen to do plenty of times).

Better get a consignment with a usable percentage now, than wait 2 weeks to get the same usable quantity and open the risk of someone gazzumping our order (as well as exposing front-line workers to a needless two-week delay).

blackwhite wrote: »

Indeed. Applying the most basic aspect of critical thought or analysis does seem to be completely beyond you alright. We saw it before in your despicable defences of anti-vaxxers (but only Shinner anti-vaxxers mind). "I'm just asking questions" isn't a defence for proffering knowingly dangerous theories time and again.

WTF?

Anyone with half a brain could have figured out that the 14-day quarantine being imposed by the Chinese would prevent flying out inspectors - all of course except our resident "businessman"

Your solution is to send out an inspection team and wait 2 weeks to get 75% of the consignment approved and shipped.

The simpler and safer solution - which was followed - was to take the delivery immediately and inspect it on arrival in Ireland and have use of the 75% of confirming PPE without delay.

But f*ck anyone who happens to die because of the delays by you "just asking questions" - right Francie? They're not as important as point-scoring for SF on the internet :rolleyes:

Where did I say anything about two weeks? I said we have people out there already with business expertise and who know and have dealt with companies there. Were they tasked to help here? Could they have helped?

With 200m at stake, we could just as easily ended up with none of it usable...is the point here. As other countries found to their cost...as posted by somebody last night, Finland's entire consignment was defective.

walshb

Ballso wrote: »

Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

But they only ever demand them solutions of others......yo do it, you do it, you do it....

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So making some attempt at inspecting goods before dispatch is 'naive'. okie doke.
Remind me not to give you a job in procurement so.

It is if you are getting deliveries from China and India on a weekly / monthly basis.

The procurement contract sets the specs for the product and they are inspected on arrival as to whether they meet that requirement before being released for use.

That is how all pharma companies do it. it's the most efficient way of doing it.

Otherwise you would need a permanent presence in the country you are sourcing from.

Multinationals operate differently to small SME's like i'm assuming you work for.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How the f**k do you what is and isn't feasible if you don't ask questions?

Again, all it took was a photo on Twitter to explain to the nation what the problems were with the shipment.

Indeed. Applying the most basic aspect of critical thought or analysis does seem to be completely beyond you alright. We saw it before in your despicable defences of anti-vaxxers (but only Shinner anti-vaxxers mind). "I'm just asking questions" isn't a defence for proffering knowingly dangerous theories time and again.

Anyone with half a brain could have figured out that the 14-day quarantine being imposed by the Chinese would prevent flying out inspectors - all of course except our resident "businessman"

Your solution is to send out an inspection team and wait 2 weeks to get 75% of the consignment approved and shipped.

The simpler and safer solution - which was followed - was to take the delivery immediately and inspect it on arrival in Ireland and have use of the 75% of confirming PPE without delay.

But f*ck anyone who happens to die because of the delays by you "just asking questions" - right Francie? They're not as important as point-scoring for SF on the internet :rolleyes:

aido79 wrote: »

I'd put them in the category of "better than nothing" from what I've read similar to closing your eyes when using an angle grinder instead of using goggles or safety glasses.
Still no solution for frontline staff who are the main end users of the ppe required.

I don't think the SF TD in retweeting an account talking about how to make homemade masks is suggesting they are adequate for PPE purposes for frontline.

It is however in-line with competent British authority advice on masks for the general public if you don't have access to professionally made masks.

Which is what someone was getting hot and bothered about

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So making some attempt at inspecting goods before dispatch is 'naive'. okie doke.
Remind me not to give you a job in procurement so.

To be taken seriously you need to be explain how this inspection could have been done without delaying the delivery by weeks.

jh79 wrote: »

The questioning isn't the problem it's your naive proposed solutions that are getting lambasted.

Do you not think that such a well resourced party like SF should have a better understanding of how these things work?

Is it incompetence or opportunistic point scoring behind this is the real question.

So making some attempt at inspecting goods before dispatch is 'naive'. okie doke.
Remind me not to give you a job in procurement so.

aido79

Yurt! wrote: »

He basically said they're not as bad as you'd imagine, that if it seals off the nose and mouth it basically does the same job as a surgical mask for the general public

The podcast is up online if you wish to have a listen

I'd put them in the category of "better than nothing" from what I've read similar to closing your eyes when using an angle grinder instead of using goggles or safety glasses.
Still no solution for frontline staff who are the main end users of the ppe required.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

....both of which refer to virus shedding, not that homemade masks will protect you from picking up aersolised particles - if you have a home-made mask on, and there's a shedder close with no mask, you're goosed!

The conclusion seems to be me that mask-wearing may help, but the implication, given the reference to not drawing supplies away from medics etc, is that they need to be proper masks, not bandanas or yer ma's scarf folded neatly

I'm not sure where you're taking this. The professional on the podcast more or less said that the advice from the competent British authority on wearing homemade masks wasn't a bad one.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

Where did they give up?

They did the best possible with the circumstances presented to them - and as a result managed to secure a large consignment of PPE, of which 75% was viable.

Your solution offered seemed to be to fanny around for 2 weeks waiting for a team to pass quarantine, and then do inspections that would have resulted in the same 75% being passed and arriving a couple of weeks later.

I guess all the extra infections that two week delay would bring is worth it just to score some political points though - we've seen time and again exactly what Francie's attitude to balancing civilian casualties against "the cause"

blackwhite wrote: »

What was it we said about shifting the goalposts :rolleyes:

If the business had a choice between waiting an extra 14 days for supplies that they business would fail without; or taking immediate delivery to avoid business failure. They'd take the risk of having to discard a percentage of the supplies.

What they wouldn't do is piss around proposing solutions that they know aren't feasible - or try to ignore what reality is presented to them

How the f**k do you what is and isn't feasible if you don't ask questions?

Again, all it took was a photo on Twitter to explain to the nation what the problems were with the shipment.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When dealing with a known source of dodgy supplies, would it not occur to you to put some scrutiny in place?
We have people there already, exposed to the virus everyday.

The very fact that a supplier knows that a consignment is likely to be scrutinised will often stop them chancing their arm.

I don't know if it was logistically possible to do all this...but I am certainly not going to censor or protect by not asking questions.
Questions need to be asked all the time. And answers need to be forthcoming. It's called transparency.

The questioning isn't the problem it's your naive proposed solutions that are getting lambasted.

Do you not think that such a well resourced party like SF should have a better understanding of how these things work?

Is it incompetence or opportunistic point scoring behind this is the real question.