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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Pkiernan

I haven't seen or heard anything from Mary Lou, Slab Murphy and other good Republicans in ages.

What's going on?

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blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

What was it we said about shifting the goalposts :rolleyes:

If the business had a choice between waiting an extra 14 days for supplies that they business would fail without; or taking immediate delivery to avoid business failure. They'd take the risk of having to discard a percentage of the supplies.

What they wouldn't do is piss around proposing solutions that they know aren't feasible - or try to ignore what reality is presented to them

Yurt2

aido79 wrote: »

Did he show any evidence of how effective these would be against viruses?

He basically said they're not as bad as you'd imagine, that if it seals off the nose and mouth it basically does the same job as a surgical mask for the general public

The podcast is up online if you wish to have a listen

aido79

Yurt! wrote: »

Actually I was listening to a British medical professional on the Economist podcast who was saying that in the absence of masks, as hoc created masks from tea-towels or other materials are an acceptable substitute.

He was commenting on British CDC advice on the same.

But bash away

Did he show any evidence of how effective these would be against viruses?

threeball

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

You can't get in to the fcuking country for 14 days. The pilots couldn't even get off the plane. How do you propose sending a team to oversee production, or should the health staff just sit around for 3 weeks while we get the minute details sorted.

Yurt2

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

The British don't have a CDC - are you talking about the ECDC or HPE or HPS?

Don't know what the name of it is exactly, but the equivalent org of the CDC in the US. The gent was commenting on their advice which was on using other materials to make masks in the absence of professionally produced ones.

Feel free to listen to the podcast if you so wish, it's the Economist's Editor's Pick podcast latest one

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet...others are saying there is nothing essentially wrong with wearing non medical masks.
I don't think he was suggesting these for frontline medical staff was he?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ecdc-non-medical-face-masks-in-busy-closed-spaces-could-be-considered-993107.html

I see more and more people wearing some type of mask from cheap throw away ones to scarves. (cue balaclava jokes )

Maybe he wasn't but you still haven't answered what the frontline staff should wear during the 2 week delay in getting the ppe from China under your procurement system.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

So insted of taking delivery of an order of 100,000 pieces of PPE having 80% meeting the required standards, you waste couple of weeks getting 80,000 pieces of the required standard and possibly expose IDA staff to COVID-19.

That's what you would do?

When dealing with a known source of dodgy supplies, would it not occur to you to put some scrutiny in place?
We have people there already, exposed to the virus everyday.

The very fact that a supplier knows that a consignment is likely to be scrutinised will often stop them chancing their arm.

I don't know if it was logistically possible to do all this...but I am certainly not going to censor or protect by not asking questions.
Questions need to be asked all the time. And answers need to be forthcoming. It's called transparency.

Sultan_of_Ping

Yurt! wrote: »

Actually I was listening to a British medical professional on the Economist podcast who was saying that in the absence of masks, as hoc created masks from tea-towels or other materials are an acceptable substitute.

He was commenting on British CDC advice on the same.

But bash away

The British don't have a CDC - are you talking about the ECDC or HPE or HPS?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet...others are saying there is nothing essentially wrong with wearing non medical masks.
I don't think he was suggesting these for frontline medical staff was he?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ecdc-non-medical-face-masks-in-busy-closed-spaces-could-be-considered-993107.html

I see more and more people wearing some type of mask from cheap throw away ones to scarves. (cue balaclava jokes )

Non-medical face masks doesn't mean any old mask - what's the filtration efficiency of a bandana?

Cloth masks would be useless for viruses - the particles would jus slip throug the weave no matter how many folds you put in it. So unless you can pop in some kind of efficient filter all you are doing is creating a false sense of security which will lead people into situations where they think they are protected but they are most definitely not.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

Why the link to the Embassy team?

Are you suggesting that our man or woman in Beijing, a career civil servant diplomat, is qualified to assess the product quality of PPE equipment?

If you are, you really should think again. Whatever the qualities of our diplomats, and I would personally know quite a significant number of them from my time in the civil service, and many if not most of them, are brilliant at what they do, they certainly don't qualify as inspectors of PPE.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Not at all, the issue is to deal with the crisis, not make it worse by adding confounding factors.

If someone came to us and said "make reagent" or "make test kits" - we'd say 'no' (after we'd finished laughing).

If someone goes to Lilly and says "make reagent" - Lilly will say "no problem, just let us get the 'recipe' then we're away"

If that loon Tully goes into Abbott in Cootehill and says "I hear Abbott employ thousands in Ireland and you make Covid-19 test kits, maybe you could make some here" they might say "sure, no problem - can SF tell us how to convert an infant formula line to make reagent......and in the mean time what are the rest of the world going to do when we take 15% of the world's production capacity for skimmed milk for use in infant formula off line?"

Except, she didn't say that, did she?

As I said to blanch last night, it is not as if other deputy's haven't made suggestions that were wrong in fact or just plain loony tunes...FG/FF?Lab the Greens (lets grow veggies on our windowsills everyone!)

The bile unleashed from the FG protection racket here is a sight to behold sometimes.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have people there already, clearly versed in local business. Did they have a role?
I mean, it wasn't as if spotting the problems with the gear was a specialised skill. A simple photo of the problems with the equipment on Twitter showed every man woman and child what the issue was with it.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

So insted of taking delivery of an order of 100,000 pieces of PPE having 80% meeting the required standards, you waste couple of weeks getting 80,000 pieces of the required standard and possibly expose IDA staff to COVID-19.

That's what you would do?

Yurt2

aido79 wrote: »

What's even worse is the fact that he is a medical scientist at St James hospital

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_O'Rourke

It's very worrying that someone from a medical science background would spread this.

Actually I was listening to a British medical professional on the Economist podcast who was saying that in the absence of masks, as hoc created masks from tea-towels or other materials are an acceptable substitute.

He was commenting on British CDC advice on the same.

But bash away

FrancieBrady

aido79 wrote: »

What's even worse is the fact that he is a medical scientist at St James hospital

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_O'Rourke

It's very worrying that someone from a medical science background would spread this.

Yet...others are saying there is nothing essentially wrong with wearing non medical masks.
I don't think he was suggesting these for frontline medical staff was he?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ecdc-non-medical-face-masks-in-busy-closed-spaces-could-be-considered-993107.html

I see more and more people wearing some type of mask from cheap throw away ones to scarves. (cue balaclava jokes

)

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

Not at all, the issue is to deal with the crisis, not make it worse by adding confounding factors.

If someone came to us and said "make reagent" or "make test kits" - we'd say 'no' (after we'd finished laughing).

If someone goes to Lilly and says "make reagent" - Lilly will say "no problem, just let us get the 'recipe' then we're away"

If that loon Tully goes into Abbott in Cootehill and says "I hear Abbott employ thousands in Ireland and you make Covid-19 test kits, maybe you could make some here" they might say "sure, no problem - can SF tell us how to convert an infant formula line to make reagent......and in the mean time what are the rest of the world going to do when we take 15% of the world's production capacity for skimmed milk for use in infant formula off line?"

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

This is the SF mantra

aido79

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

.....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.

What's even worse is the fact that he is a medical scientist at St James hospital

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_O'Rourke

It's very worrying that someone from a medical science background would spread this.

FrancieBrady

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......

.......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

Sultan_of_Ping

aido79 wrote: »

What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?

Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

.....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.

tikkahunter

jh79 wrote: »

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

We are supplied vials from the best manufacture of vials in the world , same with stoppers and caps - even being the top manufactures we have ran into issues with one of them at some stage and the batch was delayed. Even the top manufactures make mistakes but you buy from them without inspection ,these defects just show up later on in production. Like all companies you take them at their word - its no different weather your buying PPE or cups for the canteen.

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......

.......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.

We have people there already, clearly versed in local business. Did they have a role?
I mean, it wasn't as if spotting the problems with the gear was a specialised skill. A simple photo of the problems with the equipment on Twitter showed every man woman and child what the issue was with it.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

aido79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?

Sultan_of_Ping

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'

You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.

Ok, then you want to go down the semantic route that's fine - changing production volumes is easy - you can probably generate some change in hours/days - bringing extra capacity online, even in an atmosphere of regulatory forebearance, takes weeks.

And stopping production of certain drugs, devices etc is axiomatic in your proposals - facilities switching to produce reagents or testing kits are not producing something else, production is being displaced, which means someone has to go without.

And you still no notion of what a "vital drug" is or how to identify one.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Our company has banned international travel unless there is an exceptional business need.

Now, is going over to China to inspect an order that could be inspected on delivery an exceptional business need given that there is no evidence that the supplier could even replace the faulty stock at source?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Its an emergency and we cant really afford to be picky can we.

smurgen

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Sorry, but where in that final article you linked does it say Harris and/or the HSE bought PPE rom Alibaba?

Hahahaha man take a chill pill that was a joke. Although in the age of trump etc I suppose I should be more careful with my language.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

China wouldn't let anyone off the planes,they have a 2 week quarantine...

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.