FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

Drumpot wrote: »

This is a crisis scenario. To talk about disbanding the current government, that has thus far been excellent, is mindnumbingly stupid.

Shame on other parties only interested in themselves , desperate to stop FG from their sterling work. It is not and should not be a priority to change government and if all parties really were interested in doing what’s right they would leave the government and authorities to get through this.

There is no benefit to changing up the people running the show. It’s like a house on fire , with firemen trying to put it out who arrived first on the scene.. But some egotistical chief comes along and wants to change a more experienced fire crew with ones with no experience just because it’s protocol or some other bullsh^t ideal.

It really is clear that it’s killing FF and SF to see FG do such a superb job. I was chatting with a lifetime FF supporter today who said he thinks this FG have been the best Irish government in his lifetime and I tend to agree. I don’t care what happened before they cancelled the parade, when we needed them most as a nation they stood up to the plate. I wouldn’t want anybody else getting us through this right now and it would be usa/uk level idiot self destructive level to change them before this is resolved.

To be fair I think any party in government would be doing a good job, after all they are following advice from experts not determining what to do themselves.

The difficult decisions are yet to be taken, and it would be unfair to the next government to have to deal with the repercussions of any decision being made without at least having some input.

As to a new election, if FG/FF can't make up the numbers in the next week or two then there has to be a new election. Obviously an election cant take place in current circumstance so its a case of allowing FG continue for a fixed time period (4 to 6 months maybe and a review at that point) or a unity government being formed so that legislation could be passed until an election can safely take place.

If it is agreed that FG continue for that period, there would have to be a full confidence and supply agreement put in place so that any legislation urgently require could be easily passed.

Even though I certainly would not be voting FG, I see no reason why FG should not be allowed to continue in government for a limited time period until such time as an election could be safely carried out, the risk of a Unity government creating delays in decisions might warrant that.

Of course the other side of the argument would be with FG wanting to withdraw to the back benches and unlikely to be part of government after a new election, would it be fair for other parties that could form that government not to have any input being that they are going to have to deal with the repercussions of any decision made while while the crisis is ongoing.

It is certainly not tolerable for things to continue as is for months, with a government not being able to pass legislation quickly if needed.

Suckit wrote: »

Don't know what caretakers you have been watching, but 'excellent', sterling' and 'superb' are not close to the words I would use to decribe them.

Of course, there are some people that listened to Leo's speeches and thought that was all the work done there.

Actually I’ve been watching the virus unfold since the end of January and can compare our response with other countries.

It’s clear to anybody who has a basic grasp of this crisis, that we have been very lucky with how it’s been handled. And that includes the Leo speeches that seem to go above a lot of people’s heads.

Fann Linn

Drumpot wrote: »

Actually I’ve been watching the virus unfold since the end of January and can compare our response with other countries.

It’s clear , anybody who has a basic grasp of this crisis, that we have been very lucky with how it’s been handled. And that includes the Leo speeches that seem to go above a lot of people’s heads.

Well in fairness, we were probably one of the last country's to get it so were able to learn from other countries mistakes.

Suckit

Drumpot wrote: »

Actually I’ve been watching the virus unfold since the end of January and can compare our response with other countries.

It’s clear , anybody who has a basic grasp of this crisis, that we have been very lucky with how it’s been handled. And that includes the Leo speeches that seem to go above a lot of people’s heads.

You think you are alone in watching it unfold? And as it unfolded here?
I doubt any of Leo's speeches went above anyone that is over 3.
We may be lucky how it has been handled, and you can praise the wrong people all day long for it, as is your right, but please don't try and convince others. Anyone that has a very basic grasp of how it has been handled from the start here, can see how slow out of the gates FG were.
Half of them were still in hiding. Leo fecked off to America and still told us the St Patricks day parade was going ahead, no need to drag the rest up again, but it wasn't until the arrogance subsided enough, that they started listening to the HSE and actually getting it right.

Anyone could do that, and wouldn't need to throw in a €50,000 speech for effect.

efanton wrote: »

To be fair I think any party in government would be doing a good job, after all they are following advice from experts not determining what to do themselves.

The difficult decisions are yet to be taken, and it would be unfair to the next government to have to deal with the repercussions of any decision being made without at least having some input.

As to a new election, if FG/FF can't make up the numbers in the next week or two then there has to be a new election. Obviously an election cant take place in current circumstance so its a case of allowing FG continue for a fixed time period (4 to 6 months maybe and a review at that point) or a unity government being formed so that legislation could be passed until an election can safely take place.

If it is agreed that FG continue for that period, there would have to be a full confidence and supply agreement put in place so that any legislation urgently require could be easily passed.

Even though I certainly would not be voting FG, I see no reason why FG should not be allowed to continue in government for a limited time period until such time as an election could be safely carried out, the risk of a Unity government creating delays in decisions might warrant that.

Of course the other side of the argument would be with FG wanting to withdraw to the back benches and unlikely to be part of government after a new election, would it be fair for other parties that could form that government not to have any input being that they are going to have to deal with the repercussions of any decision made while while the crisis is ongoing.

It is certainly not tolerable for things to continue as is for months, with a government not being able to pass legislation quickly if needed.

I’m not sure how anybody could say with confidence that it’s clear any party would be doing the same. What exactly makes you think that?

If he of the opinion that theoretically an alternative government could do a better or worse job but the cost to change now coupled with the uncertainty it would bring makes that a risk not worth taking.

Drumpot wrote: »

Actually I’ve been watching the virus unfold since the end of January and can compare our response with other countries.

It’s clear , anybody who has a basic grasp of this crisis, that we have been very lucky with how it’s been handled. And that includes the Leo speeches that seem to go above a lot of people’s heads.

But the actions taken by FG were not their decisions. Yes they choose to take best advice, but they certainly did not come up with those ideas or actions themselves.

The problem is the measures FG have taken are only sustainable for a short time. Either the latest restrictions worked or they didn't. If they worked what next?
If they didn't do we impose yet more restriction, close airports and limit travel even for commuters that are currently working?.
Those are going to be really serious decisions and none of them are going to be cheap and will severely impact our country for years to come.

Surely you are not suggesting that thing carry on as they are without an elected government in power?
I doubt the FG leadership would stoop so low to take advantage of a virus outbreak to cling on to power, are you suggesting they should?

Suckit wrote: »

You think you are alone in watching it unfold? And as it unfolded here?
I doubt any of Leo's speeches went above anyone that is over 3.

We may be lucky how it has been handled, and you can praise the wrong people all day long for it, as is your right, but please don't try and convince others. Anyone that has a very basic grasp of how it has been handled from the start here, can see how slow out of the gates FG were.

Half of them were still in hiding. Leo fecked off to America and still told us the St Patricks day parade was going ahead, no need to drag the rest up again, but it wasn't until the arrogance subsided, that they started listening to the HSE and getting it right.

Anyone could do that, and wouldn't need to throw in a €50,000 speech for effect.

My views and knowledge on this are clear for all to see since the first Covid 19 thread in here. I was savagely negative of the government up until they started taking meaningful action around the cancelling of the parade.

Highlighting Leo Going to America And presuming his speech was pointless shows you just don’t get it. These are insignificant gripes that are quite petty.

One thing WHO and Dr Alyward said back in early feb was that the governments of countries need to be proactive and they need to have their populations be on board with what needs to be done.

Our government have done both to a very high degree. Part of communication is our leader speaking to the people when they need to speak. I don’t think Leo has taken the piss with this and while some of you scoff at them, the world doesn’t revolve around you. A lot of people found those speeches inspirational and important.

In terms of our tiered approach to the lockdown, again I applaud how quickly they have changed things up when needed. The reason Leo made that speech in USA was because they were acting quickly. Just like changing the testing criteria was needed and it was done regardless of how it looked.

But some of you can only see and accept the negative. Like Dr Aylward said, no matter how ready you think you are for this , you are never fully ready.

This is a crisis, I don’t think some of you get it. This is about the least worst decisions being made and making as few mistakes as possible. We aren’t in control of everything.

efanton wrote: »

But the actions taken by FG were not their decisions. Yes they choose to take best advice, but they certainly did not come up with those ideas or actions themselves.

The problem is the measures FG have taken are only sustainable for a short time. Either the latest restrictions worked or they didn't. If they worked what next?
If they didn't do we impose yet more restriction, close airports and limit travel even for commuters that are currently working?.
Those are going to be really serious decisions and none of them are going to be cheap and will severely impact our country for years to come.

Surely you are not suggesting that thing carry on as they are without an elected government in power?
I doubt the FG leadership would stoop so low to take advantage of a virus outbreak to cling on to power, are you suggesting they should?

Very disingenuous post there.

They were elected into power and the parties that had the chance to form a government didn’t bother enough to make it work in an alternative government.

The most important thing right now is that the powers that be, including the government, be allowed to steer the country out of this crisis.

Your post really is a soapbox load of waffle to suggest this is a democratic issue. I cant leave my house without potentially getting arrested, democracy should be on hold while the people managing this, are allowed to manage it.

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m not sure how anybody could say with confidence that it’s clear any party would be doing the same. What exactly makes you think that?

If he of the opinion that theoretically an alternative government could do a better or worse job but the cost to change now coupled with the uncertainty it would bring makes that a risk not worth taking.

Are you suggesting the Leo did not take advice and he and his ministers made it up all by themselves and decided what action to take without advice? Of course they did not, they did exactly what they were advised to do.

Thankfully the health advisers we had advised getting a grip on this crisis as soon as possible. Dont forget in the UK they followed the advice of their health experts, but it turned out not to be the best advice after all.

I dont like Michael Martin or what he stands for at all, but I fail to see how he would have done anything different to what Leo did considering that both would have been following the same advice and simply implementing it.
You could argue about the implementation of advice given, and whether this would be done better by one party over another but you certainly could not argue that the actions taken by FG would have been any different to those of FF or SF, except of course SF wanted the airports shutdown, and argued vehemently that €210 was simply not enough as an emergency payment for those forced out of their jobs.

FrancieBrady

Drumpot wrote: »

Very disingenuous post there.

They were elected into power and the parties that had the chance to form a government didn’t bother enough to make it work in an alternative government.

The most important thing right now is that the powers that be, including the government, be allowed to steer the country out of this crisis.

Your post really is a soapbox load of waffle to suggest this is a democratic issue. I cant leave my house without potentially getting arrested, democracy should be on hold while the people managing this, are allowed to manage it.

What the hell is that about?

Are you the guy from the GRA that wanted human rights suspended the other morning?

FG showed their true colours in the Dáil again today. The 'collegiate approach fraying with Madigan arrogantly losing it' , as one pundit put it.

Crisis or no...seems the old FG haven't gone away you know.

efanton wrote: »

Are you suggesting the Leo did not take advice and he and his ministers made it up all by themselves and decided what action to take without advice? Of course they did not, they did exactly what they were advised to do.

Thankfully the health advisers we had advised getting a grip on this crisis as soon as possible. Dont forget in the UK they followed the advice of their health experts, but it turned out not to be the best advice after all.

I dont like Michael Martin or what he stands for at all, but I fail to see how he would have done anything different to what Leo did considering that both would have been following the same advice and simply implementing it.
You could argue about the implementation of advice given, and whether this would be done better by one party over another but you certainly could not argue that the actions taken by FG would have been any different to those of FF or SF, except of course SF wanted the airports shutdown, and argued vehemently that €210 was simply not enough as an emergency payment for those forced out of their jobs.

We don’t know how other parties would of reacted or what advice they would of taken or even how quickly they would of acted. I won’t pretend to know if they would Of been better or worse if you don’t pretend to be factually sure of the case either way.

Perhaps having an outgoing government has allowed them to make the tougher calls that a new , inexperienced government might of balked at making. In short FG had very little to lose by making calls that needed to be made regardless of popularity.

Fann Linn

Drumpot wrote: »

We don’t know how other parties would of reacted or what advice they would of taken or even how quickly they would of acted. I won’t pretend to know if they would Of been better or worse if you don’t pretend to be factually sure of the case either way.

Perhaps having an outgoing government has allowed them to make the tougher calls that a new , inexperienced government might of balked at making. In short FG had very little to lose by making calls that needed to be made regardless of popularity.

They'll be handing the reins over shortly to MM soon according to RTE so we'll be able to compare and contrast.

Drumpot wrote: »

Very disingenuous post there.

They were elected into power and the parties that had the chance to form a government didn’t bother enough to make it work in an alternative government.

The most important thing right now is that the powers that be, including the government, be allowed to steer the country out of this crisis.

Your post really is a soapbox load of waffle to suggest this is a democratic issue. I cant leave my house without potentially getting arrested, democracy should be on hold while the people managing this, are allowed to manage it.

Nothing disingenuous about it.

FG do not have a majority in the Dail, and therefore should have no expectation of remaining in government as it currently stands. If they cant form a coalition with FF then they have no more right than FF, SF or any other party to be in power.

I agreed that in current circumstance it might be sensible to leave FG in place with an agreed confidence and supply agreement from ALL parties until such time as it was safe to hold an election.

And yes it is very much a democracy issue. Look what Viktor Orbán has done in Hungary claiming it is necessary because it is a national emergency.. Are you suggesting that democracy should be set aside if there is a national crisis?

efanton wrote: »

Nothing disingenuous about it.

FG do not have a majority in the Dail, and therefore should have no expectation of remaining in government as it currently stands. If they cant form a coalition with FF then they have no more right than FF, SF or any other party to be in power.

I agreed that in current circumstance it might be sensible to leave FG in place with an agreed confidence and supply agreement from ALL parties until such time as it was safe to hold an election.

And yes it is very much a democracy issue. Look what Viktor Orbán has done in Hungary claiming it is necessary because it is a national emergency.. Are you suggesting that democracy should be set aside if there is a national crisis?

I’m saying there is no benefit to changing our government now. It’s not a democracy issue because FG were voted into power. It’s not a democracy issue because FF and SF And independents have the choice to form a government.

I’m saying if they all really cared about what’s best for the country they would accept that in exceptional circumstances we have to make exceptional sacrifices. We are not allowed leave our houses because of the crisis, not because FG are trying to seize power or do some sort of nefarious act like In Hungary. That’s a silly comparison

Dr Tony Houlihan's advice now to keep the nursing homes open not looking great.

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1245692318231007235?s=19

smurgen wrote: »

Dr Tony Houlihan's advice now to keep the nursing homes open not looking great.

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1245692318231007235?s=19

Wrong thread, this is where people think it’s more important to change government then remain focused on the crisis.....

Drumpot wrote: »

Wrong thread, this is where people think it’s more important to change government then remain focused on the crisis.....

I thought this is the thread where we discuss the governments, sorry caretakers government's inaction? Like shutting nursing homes to visitors during a pandemic.

James Brown

tobsey wrote: »

That's your, as usual baseless, opinion. No evidence that it is happening or that it will.

They might change and act out of character, true enough. The private hospitals and clinics will make a fortune. I see Mr. O'Brien and Larry Goodman are in the biz.

tobsey wrote: »

The trolley crisis disappeared pretty much overnight. Why was that? The number of admissions to hospital fell massively. That indicates that people were clogging up the hospitals without good reason...

Covid19.
There you have it folks. And these are the people peddling 'we're all in this together'. Nasty party.

tobsey wrote: »

Austerity so FG can look after their own? Laughable. We'll spend billions more this year than we'll receive in tax. We'll need austerity in the coming years to pay for it. Keep telling yourself that only the ordinary citizen will pay for it and the wealthy won't if it makes you feel better. The stock market collapses over the last few weeks completely negate your argument. The wealthy have lost plenty already. Much more tha ordinary people.

You know the billions to be spent aren't FG's right? Sounds like you need reminding.
I'm going by the last financial crisis were those who were on top are back on top and the rest of us have only ourselves to blame and anyone homeless is pretending and anyone on a hospital trolley needn't be there. Nurses are too well paid etc. As I say, nasty arrogant selfish party.

smurgen wrote: »

I thought this is the thread where we discuss the governments, sorry caretakers government's inaction? Like shutting nursing homes to visitors during a pandemic.

Ah ok, so it’s an echo chamber I’ve stumbled into.... actually makes sense now ..

James Brown

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah ok, so it’s an echo chamber I’ve stumbled into.... actually makes sense now ..

If you're short on a FG defence that's on you.

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah ok, so it’s an echo chamber I’ve stumbled into.... actually makes sense now ..

Yet here you are.still...

FrancieBrady

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah ok, so it’s an echo chamber I’ve stumbled into.... actually makes sense now ..

Have you read the thread...far from an echo chamber.

Suckit

Drumpot wrote: »

My views and knowledge on this are clear for all to see since the first Covid 19 thread in here. I was savagely negative of the government up until they started taking meaningful action around the cancelling of the parade.

Highlighting Leo Going to America And presuming his speech was pointless shows you just don’t get it. These are insignificant gripes that are quite petty.

One thing WHO and Dr Alyward said back in early feb was that the governments of countries need to be proactive and they need to have their populations be on board with what needs to be done.

Our government have done both to a very high degree. Part of communication is our leader speaking to the people when they need to speak. I don’t think Leo has taken the piss with this and while some of you scoff at them, the world doesn’t revolve around you. A lot of people found those speeches inspirational and important.

In terms of our tiered approach to the lockdown, again I applaud how quickly they have changed things up when needed. The reason Leo made that speech in USA was because they were acting quickly. Just like changing the testing criteria was needed and it was done regardless of how it looked.

But some of you can only see and accept the negative. Like Dr Aylward said, no matter how ready you think you are for this , you are never fully ready.

This is a crisis, I don’t think some of you get it. This is about the least worst decisions being made and making as few mistakes as possible. We aren’t in control of everything.

Would you give over with your nonsense that you think 'some of you don't get it' BS. I have no intention of reading over your posts to see that you (amongst thousands of others) were aware of this....

I don't really care either tbh.
And no, highlighting Leo going to America was one thing, I did not say his speech was pointless. I actually said he paid quite a lot for it, which would imply the importance of it.
I do however think Leo going to America was pointless and stupid, but not the worst thing that was done, but as you have been following it from the start you already know that. You may have mentioned that a few times already, as though it gives you some kind of amazing insight to the whole thing. :rolleyes:
It is also worth pointing out that repeating that you watched it unfold doesn't mean sh*t.

Thanks for explaing that last bit though

This is a crisis, I don’t think some of you get it. This is about the least worst decisions being made and making as few mistakes as possible. We aren’t in control of everything.

#Lawdylawdy.

Btw, it's not about 'accepting the negative'..

McMurphy

This is awkward (but absolutely hilarious):pac:

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1245683336246431750?s=09

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

This is awkward (but absolutely hilarious):pac:

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1245683336246431750?s=09

Oh dear.

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m saying there is no benefit to changing our government now. It’s not a democracy issue because FG were voted into power. It’s not a democracy issue because FF and SF And independents have the choice to form a government.

I’m saying if they all really cared about what’s best for the country they would accept that in exceptional circumstances we have to make exceptional sacrifices. We are not allowed leave our houses because of the crisis, not because FG are trying to seize power or do some sort of nefarious act like In Hungary. That’s a silly comparison

So would you not agree that would be a good argument for a Unity government?

If FG wish to remain in government then why have they not formed a government?

What is the reluctance of FG to form a Unity government, or seek an agreement with other parties so that they can continue with full support of the Dail until such time as an election could be called if they too cared about the country?

Would you agree that the current situation is not sustainable. As I have said previously there's really two choices in the current situation if FG and FF cant get their act together, that FG get an confidence and supply agreement in order to continue as is until it is safe for a election to take place, or a Unity government can be formed. If FG are doing such a brilliant job I'm sure they would have no problem getting the a C&S agreement for a time limited period.

The truth is if it was possible to have an election tomorrow morning , despite FG doing a reasonable job in this crisis, they would not come close to winning.
The boost they might get from their handling of the virus crisis would be minor because as I have already pointed out the decisions made so far in the crisis were not political decisions.

Suckit

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m saying there is no benefit to changing our government now. It’s not a democracy issue because FG were voted into power. It’s not a democracy issue because FF and SF And independents have the choice to form a government.

I’m saying if they all really cared about what’s best for the country they would accept that in exceptional circumstances we have to make exceptional sacrifices. We are not allowed leave our houses because of the crisis, not because FG are trying to seize power or do some sort of nefarious act like In Hungary. That’s a silly comparison

That post doesn't make a lot of sense, and one of your previous posts agrees.

Drumpot wrote: »

I’m saying there is no benefit to changing our government now. It’s not a democracy issue because FG were voted into power. It’s not a democracy issue because FF and SF And independents have the choice to form a government.

I’m saying if they all really cared about what’s best for the country they would accept that in exceptional circumstances we have to make exceptional sacrifices. We are not allowed leave our houses because of the crisis, not because FG are trying to seize power or do some sort of nefarious act like In Hungary. That’s a silly comparison

Need I remind you that Leo has already formally handed his resignation in to the president. FG have not been voted into power. They are only in power until such time as a new government can be formed.

Even at that FG along with FF have done appalling bad. Eight weeks and they still havent decided to form a government. So much for your 'meaningful action' and being 'proactive'.

FG have simply done what they were told to do. Some of it has been good, some of it less than par for the course.
Did FG really think people could survive on 210 p/w, and pay mortgages and rent?
Did they have to have public opinion persuade them to shut down parades?
why are they letting banks charge interest when they promised a freeze?
Why are ordinary citizens restricted to 2km and yet all our airports are still fully open with no checks whatsoever or quarantine for those entering the country?
Why have they made an almighty balls up of the testing/contact tracing, surely contact tracing should have commenced at the point of the test not two weeks later?
Why were SF calling for emergency payments at least a week before FG got round to it?
Why did FG suggest there should be no need whatsoever of the weekly Leaders questions?

Im not say they have done atrociously, in a crisis mistakes are going to be made, and that would be the case for any party, but you assertion that only FG are capable of handling this crisis is to be honest laughable.