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Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

ancapailldorcha

This thread is a continuation of the megathreads for discussing the presidency of Donald Trump and any matters which relate to this.

Please keep discussion civil and constructive and bear the charter in mind before posting.

Update 16/5/20:

Threadbanned users:

Outlaw Pete
everlast75
mcmoustache
BonnieSituation

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Leroy42

Pete, what is the reason for the DNC holding up the bill?

Have they said it's about the November election or is that your assumption?

HalloweenJack

It will damage the Democrats' image among some voters if they are seen to be getting in the way of any economic stimulus package or aid for victims.

I imagine its coming from a place of wanting to make things more difficult for Trump and the Republicans or simply refusing to support legislation that is put forward by them. If this were a different kind of crisis, I would agree with them but the optics on this have the potential to be terrible. Serious economic damge and health problems, neither of which are their fault but it will be such an easy message for the Republicans to ppunce upon come election time.

I can see some swing voters not taking kindly to this if they are out of pocket and see that its the Democrats holding things up. I know its far more. complicated than that but there will be plenty of people who will see it that way.

Every country in the world seems to be approving these kind of deals so I don't think its worth it to be the ones holding it up.

I do think things are going to get really bad in the States as a result of their health and economic systems. This should be a wake-up call for voters to demand more change and could be a campaign message for the Democrats but they will be seen as complicit by some if they block any attempts at economic stimulus or aid.

listermint

Give us all a full breakdown of the economic stimulus package there outlaw or Halloween.

What's on it for people and healthcare.

How heavy is it weighted to save ultra wealthy and give them money. Whats in there to prevent them buying their own stock back which stimulates nothing. Something which they did with the hundreds of Billions handed out last time by the gop

reg114

somewhere45 wrote: »

55% approval rating of how he has handled the COVID-19 precautions.
I have actually reached that point where I just don't care and are starting to find the whole thing "funny" in an utter bizarre way.

Its like we have entered a reality show episode of the twilight zone that will last a lot longer than the usual 30min.

Ah but as I said, this hasnt even begun for America. Inexplicable as their 55% support for him is currently, the people who voted wont have been affected YET. As we saw in Italy this can turn into a horror literally overnight. In a few weeks a million Americans will have this virus, tens of thousands of them will be dead, all the while the hospitals will be at the point of collapse. This is inevitable. We'll see what his approval rating is when his base are dropping like flies and he has no answers.

Midlife

In fairness, at least Pete and his glorious leader have come a long way from saying the virus and its threat was a democratic hoax.

Now the Democrats are just to blame for the response.

everlast75

reg114 wrote: »

Ah but as I said, this hasnt even begun for America. Inexplicable as their 55% support for him is currently, the people who voted wont have been affected YET. As we saw in Italy this can turn into a horror literally overnight. In a few weeks a million Americans will have this virus, tens of thousands of them will be dead, all the while the hospitals will be at the point of collapse. This is inevitable. We'll see what his approval rating is when his base are dropping like flies and he has no answers.

I sought out the details of the people polled on this one.

"This ABC News/Ipsos poll was conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs‘ KnowledgePanel® March 18-19, 2020, in English and Spanish, among a random national sample of 512 adults. Results have a margin of sampling error of 5.0 points, including the design effect.."

Roanmore

There is a good synopsis in this Twitter link.

The bill seems to be light on detail, seems to be all about Corporations and the Market

https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1241798822877114377

HalloweenJack

listermint wrote: »

Give us all a full breakdown of the economic stimulus package there outlaw or Halloween.

What's on it for people and healthcare.

How heavy is it weighted to save ultra wealthy and give them money. Whats in there to prevent them buying their own stock back which stimulates nothing. Something which they did with the hundreds of Billions handed out last time by the gop

Honestly, I don't know about the details but that's not my argument. I'm not naive enough to think that the Republicans are doing this purely for the greater good and that they are not going to shoehorn in something that'll help out their buddies. I'm certain that is the real reason why they are so concerned in the first place. But I'm not here to talk about the details and I freely admit I don't know what they are.

My point is that this can very easily be used against the Democrats. Loyalists on both sides of the divide aren't going to care if the Democrats try block it. Its those that could easily be swayed that may turn against the Democrats if they skim through the news and see a headline like "Democrats block economic stimulus package". On the other hand, the Republicans will be seen to be trying something (whatever their intentions are).

You can argue all day about the intelligence or political interest of such people but I can guarantee you that they are out there. By stopping this package, the Democrats are giving the Republicans ammo for the next election campaign. It will provide them with perfect soundbites, such as "The Dems let the economy fail" (regardless of what the actual state of the economy was before Covid19).

The Democrats should try to use this to their advantage. In the election campaign, they can then point to putting grievances aside for the greater good and promising to work on changing the system that is so obviously broken. By trying to stop this, they are already putting themselves on the backfoot.

EDIT - Having read the tweet above, I'm not surprised whatsoever about the bill's contents. It does not change my point: The people who are already voting Trump/Rep will applaud it, the people who vote Dem and know what this administration is all about will call it out for what it is. It's the people who are undecided that need to be focused on and some of them will see this as "The Democrats block economic stimulus".

Christy42

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know about the details but that's not my argument. I'm not naive enough to think that the Republicans are doing this purely for the greater good and that they are not going to shoehorn in something that'll help out their buddies. I'm certain that is the real reason why they are so concerned in the first place. But I'm not here to talk about the details and I freely admit I don't know what they are.

My point is that this can very easily be used against the Democrats. Loyalists on both sides of the divide aren't going to care if the Democrats try block it. Its those that could easily be swayed that may turn against the Democrats if they skim through the news and see a headline like "Democrats block economic stimulus package". On the other hand, the Republicans will be seen to be trying something (whatever their intentions are).

You can argue all day about the intelligence or political interest of such people but I can guarantee you that they are out there. By stopping this package, the Democrats are giving the Republicans ammo for the next election campaign. It will provide them with perfect soundbites, such as "The Dems let the economy fail" (regardless of what the actual state of the economy was before Covid19).

The Democrats should try to use this to their advantage. In the election campaign, they can then point to putting grievances aside for the greater good and promising to work on changing the system that is so obviously broken. By trying to stop this, they are already putting themselves on the backfoot.

EDIT - Having read the tweet above, I'm not surprised whatsoever about the bill's contents. It does not change my point: The people who are already voting Trump/Rep will applaud it, the people who vote Dem and know what this administration is all about will call it out for what it is. It's the people who are undecided that need to be focused on and some of them will see this as "The Democrats block economic stimulus".

I agree it can and will be used against them. However at q certain point they have to do what it is right as well.

It was a democrat who got testing made for free. It has been Republicans encouraging people out to socialise saying the virus is no big deal (including several who did so well after. It is a Democrat providing the strongest leadership in all of this (Manic may point to issues in the lower level, if you had leadership at the top then the lower levels will find it easier to follow along with that, if you want change at the lower levels across the board you need it at the top).

If Democrats still get voted out after all of that. Well there is not more you can do for them. Let this bill through and you are playing politics with people's lives.

listermint

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know about the details but that's not my argument. I'm not naive enough to think that the Republicans are doing this purely for the greater good and that they are not going to shoehorn in something that'll help out their buddies. I'm certain that is the real reason why they are so concerned in the first place. But I'm not here to talk about the details and I freely admit I don't know what they are.

My point is that this can very easily be used against the Democrats. Loyalists on both sides of the divide aren't going to care if the Democrats try block it. Its those that could easily be swayed that may turn against the Democrats if they skim through the news and see a headline like "Democrats block economic stimulus package". On the other hand, the Republicans will be seen to be trying something (whatever their intentions are).

You can argue all day about the intelligence or political interest of such people but I can guarantee you that they are out there. By stopping this package, the Democrats are giving the Republicans ammo for the next election campaign. It will provide them with perfect soundbites, such as "The Dems let the economy fail" (regardless of what the actual state of the economy was before Covid19).

The Democrats should try to use this to their advantage. In the election campaign, they can then point to putting grievances aside for the greater good and promising to work on changing the system that is so obviously broken. By trying to stop this, they are already putting themselves on the backfoot.

EDIT - Having read the tweet above, I'm not surprised whatsoever about the bill's contents. It does not change my point: The people who are already voting Trump/Rep will applaud it, the people who vote Dem and know what this administration is all about will call it out for what it is. It's the people who are undecided that need to be focused on and some of them will see this as "The Democrats block economic stimulus".

The Democrats goal should be to fix the country by getting correct stimulus to the people that need it. not placate hardened GOP votes.

They are doing fine.

The contents of the bill speak volumes and trump and co are doing enough on their own to show how poor they and the GOP are handing this. I expect upset over the coming weeks directed at Trump and Mitch.

The dems have not set a foot wrong here.

StringerBell

Leroy42 wrote: »

Pete, what is the reason for the DNC holding up the bill?

Have they said it's about the November election or is that your assumption?

Its because its not a serious bill, too many people get left out completely.

In simple terms, the bill is a piece of ****.

looksee

I agree it can and will be used against them. However at q certain point they have to do what it is right as well.

This ^^^.To follow through on HalloweenJack's post, should Trump and his cronies be invited to put through whatever nonsense they feel like, on the basis that if it is called 'Covid 19 something' no-one can dispute it?

The US is just about beyond saving at this point - politically rather than illness related, though it may be that too - but still, if anyone is willing to make an effort to reign in the disgusting attitudes and actions of the Republicans then they should do so. The country will get the government it deserves, that is not a reason for giving up.

Leroy42

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know about the details but that's not my argument. I'm not naive enough to think that the Republicans are doing this purely for the greater good and that they are not going to shoehorn in something that'll help out their buddies. I'm certain that is the real reason why they are so concerned in the first place. But I'm not here to talk about the details and I freely admit I don't know what they are.

My point is that this can very easily be used against the Democrats. Loyalists on both sides of the divide aren't going to care if the Democrats try block it. Its those that could easily be swayed that may turn against the Democrats if they skim through the news and see a headline like "Democrats block economic stimulus package". On the other hand, the Republicans will be seen to be trying something (whatever their intentions are).

You can argue all day about the intelligence or political interest of such people but I can guarantee you that they are out there. By stopping this package, the Democrats are giving the Republicans ammo for the next election campaign. It will provide them with perfect soundbites, such as "The Dems let the economy fail" (regardless of what the actual state of the economy was before Covid19).

The Democrats should try to use this to their advantage. In the election campaign, they can then point to putting grievances aside for the greater good and promising to work on changing the system that is so obviously broken. By trying to stop this, they are already putting themselves on the backfoot.

EDIT - Having read the tweet above, I'm not surprised whatsoever about the bill's contents. It does not change my point: The people who are already voting Trump/Rep will applaud it, the people who vote Dem and know what this administration is all about will call it out for what it is. It's the people who are undecided that need to be focused on and some of them will see this as "The Democrats block economic stimulus".

In other words, this is no time to actual hold people to account, we should just allow anything through as it is a crisis?

So we step even closer to authoritarianism.

We know exactly what will happen. If the DNC simply vote for this, then when the stuff hits the fan later on, those that voted for it will be called out as hypocrite. Just like the Iraq war vote etc. So Warren votes for it, then in a year when it comes out that Trump Org got millions (for example) and she complains, Fox News and GOP will claim she knew what she voted for

Quin_Dub

HalloweenJack wrote: »

It will damage the Democrats' image among some voters if they are seen to be getting in the way of any economic stimulus package or aid for victims.

I imagine its coming from a place of wanting to make things more difficult for Trump and the Republicans or simply refusing to support legislation that is put forward by them. If this were a different kind of crisis, I would agree with them but the optics on this have the potential to be terrible. Serious economic damge and health problems, neither of which are their fault but it will be such an easy message for the Republicans to ppunce upon come election time.

I can see some swing voters not taking kindly to this if they are out of pocket and see that its the Democrats holding things up. I know its far more. complicated than that but there will be plenty of people who will see it that way.

Every country in the world seems to be approving these kind of deals so I don't think its worth it to be the ones holding it up.

I do think things are going to get really bad in the States as a result of their health and economic systems. This should be a wake-up call for voters to demand more change and could be a campaign message for the Democrats but they will be seen as complicit by some if they block any attempts at economic stimulus or aid.

They are not - The key sticking point is the GOP request for a $500 Billion fund that will be under the exclusive control of Steve Mnuchin where he can give out unspecified amounts to unspecified companies and can withhold the names of those companies for up to 6 months.

Why is there a stipulation from the GOP about withholding the names?? -What's the logic there.

It's a slush-fund for cronies , plain and simple..

That's the complaint , the Democrats want the money spent on Public health or on providing money directly to US citizens and not hidden funding for corporations..

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me to be honest..

pixelburp

If any tweet can possibly surmise just how horribly, irredeemably 'effed America may be in this crisis, this small exchange might be it. I'm not sure where to even begin parsing the stupid. Of course it's barely related to Trump specifically but this is the level of stubborn individualism and baseless sense of exceptionalism that Trump merely represents. Owning the libs by risking infection. Hoorah.

https://twitter.com/realkatiejow/status/1238937001463877632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1238937001463877632&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theroot.com%2Fajax%2Finset%2Fiframe%3Fid%3Dtwitter-1238937001463877632%26autosize%3D1

banie01

Quin_Dub wrote: »

They are not - The key sticking point is the GOP request for a $500 billion fund that will be under the exclusive control of Steve Mnuchin where he can give out unspecified amounts to unspecified companies and can withhold the names of those companies for up to 6 months.

Why is there a stipulation from the GOP about withholding the names?? -What's the logic there.

It's a slush-fund for cronies, plain and simple...

That's the complaint, the Democrats want the money spent on Public health or on providing money directly to US citizens and not hidden funding for corporations...

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me to be honest...

This is a serious flaw with the so-called "relief".

Every effort at "trickle-down" implemented has failed. it perpetuates a boom/bust cycle.

The most sustained period of US growth involved direct federal spending on infrastructure.
A period of @25yrs of US public spending, beginning with the New Deal, then morphing into the huge spends on war material and employment before tailing out with the interstate building programme.

The benefits to the public were fairly immediate in allowing either vital infrastructure build, strategic interconnection and mass employment.

if one wants to funnel funds to private enterprise, employ them to undertake infrastructure build or other work that results in employment.

Gain something for that blank cheque other than kicking a can down the road or ensuring further creative accounting and stock buybacks.

If one writes a cheque, it needs to be for more than just notionally supporting GDP.
Either contract out services for that $500bln, or instead deliver it directly to citizen's where their spend will stimulate far more economic activity than merely underwriting companies many of whom are already failing anyway.
Boeing being a prime example!

mcmoustache

God help America if social distancing or not becomes a political statement. If any nation is capable of such stupidity, it's the USA.

Quin_Dub

Trump already talking about rolling back the isolation restrictions..

Live tweeting last night during a FoxNews segment on how "The cure could be worse than the disease and that the Economy was more important!!"

Fox News host Steve Hilton blasted “our ruling class and their TV mouthpieces whipping up fear” over the coronavirus outbreak on Sunday and warned that a recession due to shutdowns could be deadly.

Donald Trump seemed to be watching. Soon after the segment aired, the president fired off an all-caps tweet repeating some of Hilton’s talking points.

Hilton played a clip of Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, saying he was fine if people think the response to the virus was an overreaction.

“Well, that’s easy for him to say,” Hilton said. “He’ll still have a job at the end of this, whatever happens.”

So Fauci is one of the "Global Elite" now?!?!

It beggars belief , it really does...

Leroy42

Steve Hilton:

Steve Hilton is a British political adviser and commentator. He is a former director of strategy for David Cameron, who was Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom from 2010 to 2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Hilton

So he was a director of Strategy during the austerity years! The man has no shame.

pixelburp

I wrapped a user's knuckles for predicting bodies on the streets, but between this and idiots like the above tweet, declaring that risking her health was American Freedom, I'm slowly beginning to come to that user's way of thinking. Between a poverty of leadership, a rationale of religious individualism, crumbling infrastructure, and crippling healthcare costs, it's hard to see how America extricates itself from this crisis without massive casualties. Italy may yet have nothing on the US, and it saddens me deeply.

PopePalpatine

mcmoustache wrote: »

God help America if social distancing or not becomes a political statement. If any nation is capable of such stupidity, it's the USA.

I'm waiting for Alex Jones et al to claim that "true patriots" have higher testosterone levels that will fight off the virus.

Itssoeasy

That reply to AOC beggars believe but really it's not surprising. Freedom is great and we should as a world be making as many people have rights and freedoms but doing something which is against the medical advice isn't expressing your freedom, it's needlessly putting you and other people at risk.

banie01

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm slowly beginning to come to that user's way of thinking. Between a poverty of leadership, a rationale of religious individualism, crumbling infrastructure, and crippling healthcare costs, it's hard to see how America extricates itself from this crisis without massive casualties. Italy may yet have nothing on the US, and it saddens me deeply.

This outbreak is going to be a sea-change in America I think.

A nation that rails against socialism and bureaucracy, with over 50 separate health systems in play.
Massively fragmented and duplicated bureaucracy from the municipal > County > State > Federal levels is already leading to huge issues.

There is no coherent or homogeneous response.

Cuomo and a few other of the State governors are talking a great game, but the disjointed nature of the national response is shocking!

The blame cant really be laid on "federalism" either, as Germany would be an example of precisely everything the US is getting wrong in their response.

The usual answer trotted out to this is that the US is so big, its a different case, the founders wanted....

The founders based there ideas of Government on being a coastal strip of 13 colonies!
Not a pan-continental state.

The Nal

banie01 wrote: »

The founders based there ideas of Government on being a coastal strip of 13 colonies!

With less than 3 million people.

Nody

banie01 wrote: »

This outbreak is going to be a sea-change in America I think.

Not really; it will reinforce the world views if anything. Gun totting maniacs living in the forest will see it as proof why they need their guns and self living without a state is the right call. Rich people will see it as they were right in donating money to charities and seclude themselves in a mountain cabin etc. and have private doctors to treat them. The socialist lefties will not change their view on that the state should run the show. The average earner will look at the calls on federal run policies and be drowned in adds about how the communist countries contentiously fail from the pharmacy et al lobbies.

In short; all the corona virus is doing is reinforcing what ever world view was there before but not causing a massive change. Yes; tens of thousands if maybe even approaching a million people or more will die from it but it will not change anything in the end.

banie01

Nody wrote: »

Not really; i

I can see the basis of your thinking and I do not at all doubt that a certain number of right wingers will see this as a reinforcement of their world view.

I do hope however, that the sane and rational US citizens outnumber those nutters and that political and systemic change on a scale not seen since suffrage will come.

There is a new dynamic tension in States rights Vs Federal, and the last time it rose to be such an issue in US politics, they funnily enough had a President who was considered by many to be their worst ever (Until recently).

The lack of leadership, and the contradictory BS being spouted bu POTUS are stoking the flames IMO.

rossie1977

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I can see some swing voters not taking kindly to this if they are out of pocket and see that its the Democrats holding things up. I know its far more. complicated than that but there will be plenty of people who will see it that way.

Every country in the world seems to be approving these kind of deals so I don't think its worth it to be the ones holding it up.

I do think things are going to get really bad in the States as a result of their health and economic systems. This should be a wake-up call for voters to demand more change and could be a campaign message for the Democrats but they will be seen as complicit by some if they block any attempts at economic stimulus or aid.

Most countries stimulus packages are there to protect workers or ordinary people.

The Republicans plan was to protect corporations and top 0.01% so huge difference.

[Deleted User]

pixelburp wrote: »

I wrapped a user's knuckles for predicting bodies on the streets, but between this and idiots like the above tweet, declaring that risking her health was American Freedom, I'm slowly beginning to come to that user's way of thinking. Between a poverty of leadership, a rationale of religious individualism, crumbling infrastructure, and crippling healthcare costs, it's hard to see how America extricates itself from this crisis without massive casualties. Italy may yet have nothing on the US, and it saddens me deeply.

Assuming they hit 10 million infected, 1% mortality rate would be a hundred thousand dead. I'm really seeing it getting very bad for the US in the coming week unfortunately.

VinLieger

Okay 15 days he can reconsider the restrictions sure... In 15 days the US if it continues its current trend will have more infections than the rest of the world combined

Quin_Dub

VinLieger wrote: »

Okay 15 days he can reconsider the restrictions sure... In 15 days the US if it continues its current trend will have more infections than the rest of the world combined

Sadly , it's not even 15 days from now , it's 15 days from when they announced the restrictions which was March 15th , so this big decision will be made next Monday....