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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

Thanks, I'll see what the story is with adding a second nest then. They're also doing an offer for climote at the mo.

One other detail I left out is there's two stats for the stove, one at the stove's out pipe which controls the temp where it starts pumping to the rads but a second in the hot press that tells it it switch between the zones (if I put this second one to zero it pumps straight to upstairs, if i set it very high it only goes downstairs, the idea was you can set it to a certain temp where it will automatically switch zones once it's detected downstairs is warm enough).

Why is this second stat in the hot press? Is it a room/wall stat or is it a pipe/ cylinder stat on the cylinder? It sounds a bit Heath-Robinson, but I think I get what the plumber was at, perhaps heat the HW/Downstairs first, but a hotpress is always going to be fairly warm. Is the hot press downstairs? Surely stat should be on the wall outside? Very curious!

chuck eastwood

deezell wrote: »

Why is this second stat in the hot press? Is it a room/wall stat or is it a pipe/ cylinder stat on the cylinder? It sounds a bit Heath-Robinson, but I think I get what the plumber was at, perhaps heat the HW/Downstairs first, but a hotpress is always going to be fairly warm. Is the hot press downstairs? Surely stat should be on the wall outside? Very curious!

Just a word of warning on this lads. The offer is okay and very few can or will fit to a system with a stove or even an oil boiler as the wiring isn't as simple as banging one onto a gas boiler so I went ahead and ordered it for mine, oil/stove two zone and hw. The contractor they use set three different days and failed to turn up on any of them. This cost me two days pay to be at home waiting but at least I got to do a few other jobs around the house but it's been farcical dealing with the contractors. On their fourth promise of an install date I just had zero faith and got a refund.

Mickeroo

deezell wrote: »

Why is this second stat in the hot press? Is it a room/wall stat or is it a pipe/ cylinder stat on the cylinder? It sounds a bit Heath-Robinson, but I think I get what the plumber was at, perhaps heat the HW/Downstairs first, but a hotpress is always going to be fairly warm. Is the hot press downstairs? Surely stat should be on the wall outside? Very curious!

It's a pipe stat not a wall stat. It does work quite well so I've never really questioned it

Pic here:

chuck eastwood wrote: »

Just a word of warning on this lads. The offer is okay and very few can or will fit to a system with a stove or even an oil boiler as the wiring isn't as simple as banging one onto a gas boiler so I went ahead and ordered it for mine, oil/stove two zone and hw. The contractor they use set three different days and failed to turn up on any of them. This cost me two days pay to be at home waiting but at least I got to do a few other jobs around the house but it's been farcical dealing with the contractors. On their fourth promise of an install date I just had zero faith and got a refund.

Well that's not encouraging, literally just submitted our details when I saw this.

We'll see how we go sure. Main reason we're going up with them is the energy credits for some grant work we got done anyway.

deezell

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's a pipe stat not a wall stat. It does work quite well......

Ah I can see now. Its a stat on the return flow from the CH zone manifold. Flow will initially be cold, eventually warming up as the radiators fill with hot and the room warms, at which point the stat can close and bring in the other zone valve and its rads.

Mickeroo

deezell wrote: »

Ah I can see now. Its a stat on the return flow from the CH zone manifold. Flow will initially be cold, eventually warming up as the radiators fill with hot and the room warms, at which point the stat can close and bring in the other zone valve and its rads.

That's it exactly, I just didn't describe it very well!

lucast2007us

I like the idea of the tado for the radiators but my radiators have the old plastic knob on one end with the + and - on it.
So not sure if my radiators are new enough.

deezell

lucast2007us wrote: »

I like the idea of the tado for the radiators but my radiators have the old plastic knob on one end with the + and - on it.
So not sure if my radiators are new enough.

Radiators don't matter, its the valve bodies at the ends. If they are jusr screw down type like a tap, thet will need ti be changed to plunger pin type for TRVs.

championc

lucast2007us wrote: »

I like the idea of the tado for the radiators but my radiators have the old plastic knob on one end with the + and - on it.
So not sure if my radiators are new enough.

To go all the way from + to -, how much do you need to turn the the knob ? If it's less than one complete turn, then it sounds like a trv

Black_Knight

Looking to replace my mother in laws Netatmo smart theromstat. The relay (controller for the boiler) is on the blink. Electrician came out and bypassed it and the boiler ran fine, so it's the relay itself. I had a look, and though all looks fine technically (no errors etc.) it does not trigger the boiler. I'm going to try contact Netatmo, but I don't expect much (reviews of their customer service are poor).

What single zoned thermostat would you recommend? I've had a nest before and hated it, so not a nest. Tado have introduced a monthly fee, so screw them. Are honeywell good?
Basically just want the ability to:
- Set temperatures for parts of the day
- Know when i'm home/away
- Boost the heating for X period of time (a feature I really liked on the netatmo)

Mickeroo

Black_Knight wrote: »

Looking to replace my mother in laws Netatmo smart theromstat. The relay (controller for the boiler) is on the blink. Electrician came out and bypassed it and the boiler ran fine, so it's the relay itself. I had a look, and though all looks fine technically (no errors etc.) it does not trigger the boiler. I'm going to try contact Netatmo, but I don't expect much (reviews of their customer service are poor).

What single zoned thermostat would you recommend? I've had a nest before and hated it, so not a nest. Tado have introduced a monthly fee, so screw them. Are honeywell good?
Basically just want the ability to:
- Set temperatures for parts of the day
- Know when i'm home/away
- Boost the heating for X period of time (a feature I really liked on the netatmo)

If she's due to change leccy providers SSE are doing a free climote, echo and echo dot offer at the moment.

Black_Knight

Mickeroo wrote: »

If she's due to change leccy providers SSE are doing a free climote, echo and echo dot offer at the moment.

Nope. Just changed to iberdrola last month.

Black_Knight

Mickeroo wrote: »

If she's due to change leccy providers SSE are doing a free climote, echo and echo dot offer at the moment.

Ouch. €399 from the climote website, and a €19 annual fee. Not sure that'll be a runner. Too pricey.

woidoi

Black_Knight wrote: »

Looking to replace my mother in laws Netatmo smart theromstat. The relay (controller for the boiler) is on the blink.

Was the Netatmo driving the boiler directly or via a relay? The Netatmo does have a relay inside, but it is really designed to be connected into the thermostat wires of the boiler (smaller amperage draw) rather than directly replacing an on/off timeclock (clunking large amperage draw on and off).

If the latter was the setup, all smart thermostat relays will fail eventually, mine took nearly three years before fusing in the open position, yours sounds like it fused in the closed position. If you know what you're doing 230V AC wise then you could attach a multimeter to the switching wires to confirm which it is.

The Netatmo switching a separate relay designed for large loads will sort out a lot of problems - but without testing, you may have a stuck Netatmo Relay and I'm not sure that can be remedied easily. I have three Zoned Netatmos and I dropped in one from another zone, but this time I made it connect to seperate relay which then fires the boiler.

More details on the Netatmo thermostat thread on this forum.

Black_Knight

Cheers. The relay was put in place of the original timer switch, and that connects to the boiler. I would imagine the thermostat wires of the boiler are not exposed at the old timer. I took a gander at the wiring in the boiler house. Scary stuff! Timer only has 2 wires at it. I swear I measured across both and got ~0V... it was late, after a days work, and an hours drive... I wonder had I the multimeter set correctly :eek:

deezell

Black_Knight wrote: »

Looking to replace my mother in laws Netatmo smart theromstat. The relay (controller for the boiler) is on the blink. Electrician came out and bypassed it and the boiler ran fine, so it's the relay itself. I had a look, and though all looks fine technically (no errors etc.) it does not trigger the boiler. I'm going to try contact Netatmo, but I don't expect much (reviews of their customer service are poor).

What single zoned thermostat would you recommend? I've had a nest before and hated it, so not a nest. Tado have introduced a monthly fee, so screw them. Are honeywell good?
Basically just want the ability to:
- Set temperatures for parts of the day
- Know when i'm home/away
- Boost the heating for X period of time (a feature I really liked on the netatmo)

Drayton wiser Kit 1 from screwfix for €165, Tado v3 for £115 from Amazon, but this does not include wirelss ext kit. Tado sub is optional for extra stat functionality.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Thermostat-Starter-Kit/dp/B07FZ3P393

Black_Knight

deezell wrote: »

Drayton wiser Kit 1 from screwfix for €165, Tado v3 for £115 from Amazon, but this does not include wirelss ext kit. Tado sub is optional for extra stat functionality.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Thermostat-Starter-Kit/dp/B07FZ3P393

Tado now has a monthly fee.

deezell

It's not imposed until you activate geofencing and open window features. You can live without the latter, you still get alerts for the former, which you can use to bodge your own away status. Discussed here a few months ago, I'll check back.

Black_Knight

woidoi wrote: »

Was the Netatmo driving the boiler directly or via a relay? The Netatmo does have a relay inside, but it is really designed to be connected into the thermostat wires of the boiler (smaller amperage draw) rather than directly replacing an on/off timeclock (clunking large amperage draw on and off).

If the latter was the setup, all smart thermostat relays will fail eventually, mine took nearly three years before fusing in the open position, yours sounds like it fused in the closed position. If you know what you're doing 230V AC wise then you could attach a multimeter to the switching wires to confirm which it is.

The Netatmo switching a separate relay designed for large loads will sort out a lot of problems - but without testing, you may have a stuck Netatmo Relay and I'm not sure that can be remedied easily. I have three Zoned Netatmos and I dropped in one from another zone, but this time I made it connect to seperate relay which then fires the boiler.

More details on the Netatmo thermostat thread on this forum.

Note to all. Having your mother-in-law pull the netatmo relay off the wall and dropping it in the process can release the switch. Heating back working again

woidoi

Black_Knight wrote: »

Note to all. Having your mother-in-law pull the netatmo relay off the wall and dropping it in the process can release the switch. Heating back working again

ðŸ˜ðŸ‘

Glad you got it working. I used to pull mine off the wall too when it would get stuck permanently on.
You got lucky. Eventually, it will fail. Recommend getting it to switch a 12-15A relay before it does.

lucast2007us

deezell wrote:

Radiators don't matter, its the valve bodies at the ends. If they are jusr screw down type like a tap, thet will need ti be changed to plunger pin type for TRVs.

Thanks would that be a big job?

Black_Knight

woidoi wrote: »

ðŸ˜ðŸ‘

Glad you got it working. I used to pull mine off the wall too when it would get stuck permanently on.
You got lucky. Eventually, it will fail. Recommend getting it to switch a 12-15A relay before it does.

That's the plan. Have it setup for the next one when this one inevitably fails

deezell

lucast2007us wrote: »

Thanks would that be a big job?

If you could get trv valve bodies with the matching thread 1" taper couplers to the radiator spigot, and the same pipe compression nut, it would be just a case of drain rad, swap valve, then flood and bleed. Problem is all new TRV valve bodies now seem to be a 15mm compression nut on the rad end, like so
https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv2way-valve-body.html

requiring you to remove to old taper spigot out of the rad, tricky if it's seized in, and replace it with the skinny 15mm pipe style spigot with compression nut and olive. Having done that, the captive 1/2" compression nut on the rising pipe to the valve is likely to have a mis matching thread to the new valve body, necessitating removal of the pipe olive ring, tricky, and the old nut. It's a pita, and a longish job start to finish, so could be €€€s per rad if you pay a plumber. Read this exact query.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=1702097

shanec1928

so with 100+ pages is there a general consensus on a solution for a house with 3 zones (2 heat + 1 water) trvs and a 24 hour timer clock. of all the home automation this is just one i cant get my head around!

loyatemu

shanec1928 wrote: »

so with 100+ pages is there a general consensus on a solution for a house with 3 zones (2 heat + 1 water) trvs and a 24 hour timer clock. of all the home automation this is just one i cant get my head around!

other than the TRV's that's what we have and I went with Drayton Wiser and I'm pretty happy with it. If you already have a 3-zone timer it's a simple install (and you can add smart TRVs as well if you want).

deezell

shanec1928 wrote: »

so with 100+ pages is there a general consensus on a solution for a house with 3 zones (2 heat + 1 water) trvs and a 24 hour timer clock. of all the home automation this is just one i cant get my head around!

Value for money, easy install (especially if your current system has only timing with no wall stats), and can add smart TRV heads in place of mechanical ones, I'd pick Drayton Wiser Kit 3. Hive also is similar, wireless stats for CH zones and timing schedule for HW, can add Smart TRVs. HIVE available free if you switch to Bord Gais.

savemejebus

If you have insurance with AXA, axaplus is giving 30% off of hive at the min (from hivehome site).

xl500

shanec1928 wrote: »

so with 100+ pages is there a general consensus on a solution for a house with 3 zones (2 heat + 1 water) trvs and a 24 hour timer clock. of all the home automation this is just one i cant get my head around!

Honeywell Evohome all the way can do things none of the others can and backed by a great company with years of experience in control

deezell

xl500 wrote: »

Honeywell Evohome all the way can do things none of the others can and backed by a great company with years of experience in control

True, but for a basic 3 zone 2 CH, 1 HW system, with just HW timimg, and no TRVs, you are looking at well over double the price compared to Drayton.
For a Main Evohome controller/stat and One BDR 91 relay,(£212, CH1) an additional DTS92 wall stat and BDR91 relay for CH2 zone (£63+£65), another BDR91 for HW timing only or ATF500 relay with HW temp sensor (£65 or £89) this little lot will set you back £405 or £419 if buying off UK Evohome site. You might save a few quid if you shop around.
Compared to the Draytom Kit 3 for the same functionality, at £166 on Amazon, its a big ask. Sure you can have app HW temperature control for the extra £14, (no one else bothers with this), and you can add all the TRVs later, like Drayton, Tado etc, for roughly the same per rad price.
I note Evohome don't seem to package their kit in a one price 3 Zone configuration, it seems to be all about going for TRVs via the control panel, and in that sense they are pursuing a different market.
If you want all TRV control, instead of zone control, their 12 TRV kit plus a seperate HW kit will set you back just under €900, which might be comparable value to a Hive or Tado or Drayton setup with this number of TRVs.

xl500

deezell wrote: »

True, but for a basic 3 zone 2 CH, 1 HW system, with just HW timimg, and no TRVs, you are looking at well over double the price compared to Drayton.
For a Main Evohome controller/stat and One BDR 91 relay,(£212, CH1) an additional DTS92 wall stat and BDR91 relay for CH2 zone (£63+£65), another BDR91 for HW timing only or ATF500 relay with HW temp sensor (£65 or £89) this little lot will set you back £405 or £419 if buying off UK Evohome site. You might save a few quid if you shop around.
Compared to the Draytom Kit 3 for the same functionality, at £166 on Amazon, its a big ask. Sure you can have app HW temperature control for the extra £14, (no one else bothers with this), and you can add all the TRVs later, like Drayton, Tado etc, for roughly the same per rad price.
I note Evohome don't seem to package their kit in a one price 3 Zone configuration, it seems to be all about going for TRVs via the control panel, and in that sense they are pursuing a different market.
If you want all TRV control, instead of zone control, their 12 TRV kit plus a seperate HW kit will set you back just under €900, which might be comparable value to a Hive or Tado or Drayton setup with this number of TRVs.

Evohome is Expensive but it does so much more in the long run ie Electric Zone Control,Dedicated UF Zone Controller,Opentherm etc

So For Fuctionality I would say Evohome is better but as regards price well thats always up to the purchaser to evaluate what they are getting not always pricing like for like

deezell

xl500 wrote: »

Evohome is Expensive but it does so much more in the long run ie Electric Zone Control,Dedicated UF Zone Controller,Opentherm etc

Can you post me a link to the Drayton 3 kit I cant find it Thx"

Here for £166, great deal, wont last.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Wiser-Thermostat-Heating-Control/dp/B075GNJ7ZN

https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/