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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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[Deleted User]

kuro2k wrote: »

Converted my bike last weekend

bbshd, 52v jumbo shark and lekkie 42T

Nice one.

What was the total cost and did u get it all from em3ev or just the battery ? Import charges ?

kuro2k

Converted my bike last weekend

bbshd, 52v jumbo shark and lekkie 42T

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

3kW not including peaks is a bit extreme alright

I'd say 99.9% of eBike owners have less than half of that.

I was pulling 3.5 Kw with the 8T mac motor at one stage, amazing fun, then into another direct drive 1 Kw rated motor 5 Kw and not including peaks, peaks were nearer 7 Kw

the acceleration was mental, all the way to 80 Km/hr it took effort to keep the front wheel down.

I knew I had to decommission my high power bikes. Sad but had to be done.

[Deleted User]

John Hutton wrote: »

Can you get hubs with integrated controllers?

Yes you can get hubs with internal controllers. Goldenmotor.com make the Magic Pi 5, 30 amp controller @52 volts would be 1.5 Kw.

It's got decent torque due to the large diameter. Should run around 40 Km/hr unless the changed the motor for higher rpm.

It's a good quality kit. I installed their Magic Pi II a good few years ago. Then ripped out the internal controller, which was 15 amps max at the time, a real disappointment and I modded it to use an external "modded" controller with 60 volts and 50 amps, it was a lot of fun.

As the motor is direct drive and due to the large diameter of the motor it's an absolute B1tch to to pedal without power.

If you want a bike with the most natural feel without motor power then the internally geared hubs are the best.

I'm not sure what a BBS02 or BBSHD are like to pedal without motor power but I've read on the web there is some drag with these motors too as there is with the Bosch mid drive and most mid drive motors. I believe Bosch have addressed this for their 2020 models but not sure. Brose is probably the best mid motor out there made in Berlin, I believe this provides very little motor drag when there is no power to the motor.

SCOL

unkel wrote: »

Well, we can have a discussion here about using LiPo vs 18650 based battery packs.

The major benefit of lipo is that it can be charged / discharged at much higher rates than lithium ion. This is vital if you need a very high power application and it doesn't matter that it can only work for a very short time at max power. But what does matter is the weight of the pack. It is clear this would be a major benefit for say a remote control helicopter.

Is this a major benefit for an eBike though?

I've bought 2 packs of the scooter batterys, I'm going to connect them up and see how I get on.
All I need now is a charger,

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I was running well over 30 amps too at the time from a 5 ah pack, more like 50-55 amps not including peaks

3kW not including peaks is a bit extreme alright

I'd say 99.9% of eBike owners have less than half of that.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Maybe that explains it? A 52V battery pack made of 18650 cells that you could draw a peak of 30A out of (without doing it harm) might have been big, so heavy and more importantly, extremely expensive the guts of 10 years ago? So lipo would have been a good alternative?

These days batteries are so cheap that you need not worry about them much. I draw 30A out of a EUR50 52V nominal pack regularly. If that kills the battery within a year, so be it, I'll just buy another one.

No, 18650 cells were not good then, they had poor C rates. Today they're better but still nowhere near the power density of LiPo.

I was running well over 30 amps too at the time from a 5 ah pack, more like 50-55 amps not including peaks and the peaks need to be considered too this is where the cycle analyst came in, it could tell you your nominal and peak current draw, so even today the 18650 cells are not good enough for this small size of a pack, as the pack gets larger then this becomes less of an issue, parallel enough 18650s and you can have a decent pack but cycle life with 18650s is still not fantastic.

The em3ev packs can power 52v 50 amps peak and around 40 amps nominal which is about good enough for a BBSHD and fine for a BBS02 though the packs are expensive but they're worth the money, these days Graphene LiPo can provide much higher cycle life than the 18650 cells while still providing the current, they are more expensive but the cost is coming down.

Still, a pack of 20C LiPo can be built quite cheaply, buying batteries of unknown source or quality is always risky.

Joe1919

John Hutton wrote: »

...... I'm also going for 100% legal for public road use also.....
I'm thinking of using
The tsdz2 as it is torque sensing

John, there is a 250W tdz2 available with no throttle ($315) which comes close to being legal and you can set the speed limit to 25 km/hr. But I dont think its 100% legal as the user can easily increase the speed limit.
Some bikes e.g Halfords are very difficult to increase speed as controller are potted and settings locked, without actually changing the controllers and fitting higher voltage batteries etc. But the tdz2 can be changed by simply setting buttons on the display. (Perhaps there is a way to prevent this but I dont know.)
Some people(e,g lazy riders like myself) dont like torque sensors as you need to pedal with a little force.
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2017-2s-gaym

Woosh (UK) also do a kit without throttle (48V ) that they say conform to EN15194 for £339. They are friendly to inquire with.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit#tsdz2

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

Geared hub drive pedals even easier than mid drive if battery runs out. Will even bring you home if the chain breaks

But you're right, mid drive is more efficient in a low gear up a steep hill. Is efficiency that important? For the cheaper price of the wheel kit, you can install a bigger battery and still have money left over. Less maintenance too. Nothing to go wrong with a hub motor if gently used (max 250W)

Can you get hubs with integrated controllers?

unkel

Geared hub drive pedals even easier than mid drive if battery runs out. Will even bring you home if the chain breaks

But you're right, mid drive is more efficient in a low gear up a steep hill. Is efficiency that important? For the cheaper price of the wheel kit, you can install a bigger battery and still have money left over. Less maintenance too. Nothing to go wrong with a hub motor if gently used (max 250W)

John Hutton

unkel wrote: »

For fully legal, why not just get a front 250W wheel? And a speed sensor if that doesn't come with the kit? Cheapest option and easiest to implement.

There are some nasty hills nearby, figured mid drive would be more efficient by using the bikes gears, and would pedal easier if battery ran out.

unkel

For fully legal, why not just get a front 250W wheel? And a speed sensor if that doesn't come with the kit? Cheapest option and easiest to implement.

John Hutton

John Hutton wrote: »

So I most definitely have caught the ebike bug!!

Absolutely loving my bafang middrive touring bike conversion. Super powerful, great range, works well. Am using this for long spins and will do some mini tours. I have a lot of other expensive components on this bike and having completely restored it from an initial dreadful condition I've really fallen in love with it - this means I can't use it everyday!

My everyday bike is a Brompton. As previously said I'm looking into ways to electrify this but tbh it's probably not necessary.

What I would like to do is get a donor bike which has a very upright cycling position (touring bike has drop bars and Brompton has a sporty position too) and electrify it.

On this set up I'm going to stick with mid drive, but will go with a small battery as I don't plan on going more than 15 or 20 km a go. I'll be making it a bit more discrete as I'll be using it for popping to the shops etc and may be locked up here and there for a while, so the intent is to keep it cheap. I'm also going for 100% legal for public road use also.

I'm thinking of using
The tsdz2 as it is torque sensing
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ebikechoices.com/tongsheng-tsdz2-review/&ved=2ahUKEwjSr_nBxt3nAhXkuXEKHehJBOIQFjAEegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2fGXwXtrPkDee4KTJpJjyX&cshid=1582113181136

Anyone use this motor and have any opinions?

Any suggestions of donor type bikes to keep an eye out for would be appreciated

Should say a step through bike would be ok either as the auld lad would be able to use it then

John Hutton

So I most definitely have caught the ebike bug!!

Absolutely loving my bafang middrive touring bike conversion. Super powerful, great range, works well. Am using this for long spins and will do some mini tours. I have a lot of other expensive components on this bike and having completely restored it from an initial dreadful condition I've really fallen in love with it - this means I can't use it everyday!

My everyday bike is a Brompton. As previously said I'm looking into ways to electrify this but tbh it's probably not necessary.

What I would like to do is get a donor bike which has a very upright cycling position (touring bike has drop bars and Brompton has a sporty position too) and electrify it.

On this set up I'm going to stick with mid drive, but will go with a small battery as I don't plan on going more than 15 or 20 km a go. I'll be making it a bit more discrete as I'll be using it for popping to the shops etc and may be locked up here and there for a while, so the intent is to keep it cheap. I'm also going for 100% legal for public road use also.

I'm thinking of using
The tsdz2 as it is torque sensing
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ebikechoices.com/tongsheng-tsdz2-review/&ved=2ahUKEwjSr_nBxt3nAhXkuXEKHehJBOIQFjAEegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2fGXwXtrPkDee4KTJpJjyX&cshid=1582113181136

Anyone use this motor and have any opinions?

Any suggestions of donor type bikes to keep an eye out for would be appreciated

Joe1919

SCOL wrote: »

48V 14.5Ah Hairon the interior battery SAMSUNG INR18650-29E ebike battery fit 48V 750W/ 1000W - $300
48V 13h Hairon the interior battery LG LGEBM261865 18650 ebike battery pack fit 48V 750W/ 1000W - $275
48V 13 Ah Hairon ebike electrical battery pack with 54.6V 2A charger can working on 750W motor - $240

I need to get a battery sorted out. I'm thinking of buying a battery and when I get it up and running go and buy the packs and make one up and see if there is a performance difference.

Is there much of a difference between these ?

Here is my opinion and reasons.
The three batteries look similar in so far as they all have 65 cells. The big difference is in the cells. The last battery (for $240) has generic china unbranded cells, so I would not buy this battery (unless it was far cheaper).
That leaves us with a choice between Samsung 2.9 cells or Lg 2.6 cells. Both are good quality brands. The Samsung has a little extra capacity, so I would be inclined to spend the extra $25 for the extra 11% capacity.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Depends on your requirements, if like me at the time and you needed high power from a very small pack then yes absolutely it does matter for an ebike.

Maybe that explains it? A 52V battery pack made of 18650 cells that you could draw a peak of 30A out of (without doing it harm) might have been big, so heavy and more importantly, extremely expensive the guts of 10 years ago? So lipo would have been a good alternative?

These days batteries are so cheap that you need not worry about them much. I draw 30A out of a EUR50 52V nominal pack regularly. If that kills the battery within a year, so be it, I'll just buy another one.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Well, we can have a discussion here about using LiPo vs 18650 based battery packs.

The major benefit of lipo is that it can be charged / discharged at much higher rates than lithium ion. This is vital if you need a very high power application and it doesn't matter that it can only work for a very short time at max power. But what does matter is the weight of the pack. It is clear this would be a major benefit for say a remote control helicopter.

Is this a major benefit for an eBike though?

Depends on your requirements, if like me at the time and you needed high power from a very small pack then yes absolutely it does matter for an ebike.

It's not just about running power for a short time it's about having the power when you need it.

For a long time I was running just 5 Ah at around 60 volts, that gave me about 300 watt hrs of storage, this was plenty for up to 50 Km even with decent hills because I peddled a lot and lost a tonne of weight in the process, if only I had the time to do that again lol. My Bosch Ebike had 400 Watt hrs of storage new, 36v 14 ah.

Small pack for cycling that could give me the amps when needed, for instance, my old bike could do 60 Km/hr so if I was out on a nice summers day and I say a black sky coming or hear a clap of Thunder, I'd yank that throttle to get me home.

or a hill I needed to get up quickly, or my legs were tired and I wanted to get up a hill quickly without peddling.

It's super easy to make packs out of LiPo bricks, charging is the only issue if you want to call it that, RC charger and Power Supply and the pack has to be charged in Parallel and then connected back in series/parallel for the bike but to be honest that didn't bug me at all.

If you have a BBS02 or BBSHD then this makes it easier to find a suitable battery these days if you really must have a BMS which is probably good for some people who might find it difficult to monitor cell voltages and the likes.

As I type this I have em3ev.com site open looking at his batteries and he has a LG HG2: ~ 44A Continuous, 55A Max Burst Current, voltage is 52 volts which would be more than enough to run my old MAC 8T motor at 50 Km/hr and still climb plenty of decent hills with no issue this would give me 2.2 Kw of power in a battery that is small and reasonable weight.

It costs 465 Euro's before shipping and import charges though which would make it probably 100 Euro's more expensive ?

I know Paul's batteries are pricey but they're built to the best quality and his reputation on endless sphere is excellent so I would pay more to have a pack of known good quality compared to a battery of unknown quality that might not even have the cells specified. Dodgy batteries are all too common.

He does have cheaper batteries of course with less current capability.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I suppose if Kirby says don't use LiPo then don't use LiPo, what would Mad_Lad know about LiPo I suppose ? Not like he built LiPo packs or anything !

Well, we can have a discussion here about using LiPo vs 18650 based battery packs.

The major benefit of lipo is that it can be charged / discharged at much higher rates than lithium ion. This is vital if you need a very high power application and it doesn't matter that it can only work for a very short time at max power. But what does matter is the weight of the pack. It is clear this would be a major benefit for say a remote control helicopter.

Is this a major benefit for an eBike though?

SCOL

48V 14.5Ah Hairon the interior battery SAMSUNG INR18650-29E ebike battery fit 48V 750W/ 1000W - $300
48V 13h Hairon the interior battery LG LGEBM261865 18650 ebike battery pack fit 48V 750W/ 1000W - $275
48V 13 Ah Hairon ebike electrical battery pack with 54.6V 2A charger can working on 750W motor - $240

I need to get a battery sorted out. I'm thinking of buying a battery and when I get it up and running go and buy the packs and make one up and see if there is a performance difference.

Is there much of a difference between these ?

SlowBlowin

I must admit that, although I watch his videos, I do think Andy Kirby is a bit of a knob. He reacts in childish ways, and technically he makes mistakes, especially with his renewable systems. Basically if he does something, and it works, he thinks thats the best way if doing it, but all in all hes an interesting watch..

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Andy Kirby says: don't use lipo

Well I suppose if Kirby says don't use LiPo then don't use LiPo, what would Mad_Lad know about LiPo I suppose ? Not like he built LiPo packs or anything !

Utter Consternation

I was out on the ebike in the pissings of rain last Friday. I switched it on this morning and was wheeling it around the side of the house when it took off on it's own accord (it has a rear hub motor). I had to turn it upside to stop it running off on me. It appears the freewheel is sticking a little (after the rain) and rotating the pedals which in turn activates the PAS. The chain also needs a good oiling after last friday.

Will firing a bit of oil on the chain solve all this problem?

unkel

Bought another faulty 1000W electric scooter. As expected, turns out the lead acid batteries (*4!) were dead. Replaced them with one of my 58.8V packs and the thing is flying again

So might sell it with both my double packs, which means I will have to buy something else. Would consider spending a bit more to have a higher discharge rate pack, was still considering lipo as per Mad_Lad's advice, but came across this:

Andy Kirby says: don't use lipo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2cgm6ibecY

SCOL wrote: »

OK, I think I fould them on Aliexpress they are $28. So I how many of these do I need ??

Depends on what you want to do and how much you want to spend. If you take it handy with the throttle (or don't use it at all), use mostly the lower levels of pedal assist and don't need much range, 2 will do. If you need more, get 4

SCOL

unkel wrote: »

I usually crimp them in series and then I parallel connect them with XT60 parallel connectors (couple dollars from AliExpress / eBay). The batteries I used for my bike are 24V (29.4V) 6Ah packs from Aliexpress. About USD28 and free shipping, but make sure the seller ships them separately, otherwise you can be hit for VAT / customs charges

Beware though. This route is not for everyone. The pswpower battery is all done up and will probably last longer than these hover board batteries. For not exorbitant money.

OK, I think I fould them on Aliexpress they are $28. So I how many of these do I need ??

100% High capacity 24V 6Ah 18650 Battery li-ion battery pack 29.4v 6000mah Electric bicycle moped /Li-ion battery

unkel

I usually crimp them in series and then I parallel connect them with XT60 parallel connectors (couple dollars from AliExpress / eBay). The batteries I used for my bike are 24V (29.4V) 6Ah packs from Aliexpress. About USD28 and free shipping, but make sure the seller ships them separately, otherwise you can be hit for VAT / customs charges

Beware though. This route is not for everyone. The pswpower battery is all done up and will probably last longer than these hover board batteries. For not exorbitant money.

SCOL

unkel wrote: »

I rode the bollox out of the bike last Sunday during the worst of storm Ciara. Still lasted the guts of 20km. Or do you mean number of charging cycles? I don't give a sh1t tbh. If I get a few hundred cycles out of it (several years use for me taking the bike out maybe once or twice a week), that's fine for the €100 I spent on this pack

Do you have a link for these ? I assume I solder the wires together.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

I rode the bollox out of the bike last Sunday during the worst of storm Ciara. Still lasted the guts of 20km. Or do you mean number of charging cycles? I don't give a sh1t tbh. If I get a few hundred cycles out of it (several years use for me taking the bike out maybe once or twice a week), that's fine for the €100 I spent on this pack

Well at least you're having fun.

unkel

I rode the bollox out of the bike last Sunday during the worst of storm Ciara. Still lasted the guts of 20km. Or do you mean number of charging cycles? I don't give a sh1t tbh. If I get a few hundred cycles out of it (several years use for me taking the bike out maybe once or twice a week), that's fine for the €100 I spent on this pack

[Deleted User]

Ah you see I wasn't thinking about the BBS02

I'd love to see how long the battery lasts at that current lol.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

More amps require a battery capable of supplying the power.

The controller in the BBS02 motor has max 30A. The BMS of the hoverboard batteries lets the batteries discharge at 30A (that's 2.5C in a 12Ah pack like the one I use). So the acceleration with the hoverboard battery is not slower than with any other battery. Which is what you claimed. You were wrong.