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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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end of the road

so what is it then? an airport? a military base?
it looks like a railway to me anyway as it has tracks that are similar to those that would be used for the undertaking of allowing for the movement of rail vehicles.

serfboard

Sligo eye wrote: »

I would say on balance the Athlone to Galway greenway is a far higher priority than destroying the railway.

Destroying what railway? The unused, publicly-owned land between Athenry and Claremorris is not a railway.

Muckyboots

Sligo eye wrote: »

I would say on balance the Athlone to Galway greenway is a far higher priority than destroying the railway. Two questions need to be asked;

1: Why did Ciaran Cannon put the interests of wealthy landowners first when he helped to put the kibosh on the Athlone to Galway euro velo route? Because the planned was kiboshed by the DTTS in a clumsy attempt to bulldoze a route without consulation, dividing farms and cutting off services. Ciaran was 100% correct and in time you'll see he actually secured the Athlone to Galway section rather than scupper it by putting some thrust back with landowners.

2: Is Deputy Cannon’s advocacy of destroying the railway from Athenry to Claremorris to provide a greenway the proverbial dead cat on the table to draw attention away from what he did to stop the euro velo greenway to Galway? No. He genuinely see's this as a legacy project.

Sligo eye

Muckyboots wrote: »

Lets get the facts right here- He supplied a map to one of the local TD's which was later qualified by the same TD as an "option" and not a plan as it involved CPO's from start to finish. A little research on the meaning of riparian rights will bring you up to speed on what it possible and what is fictional. At least he is trying to offer something constuctive, but he seems to be miles off the mark and has zero traction with this "option". On the other hand the Quiet Man Greenway is still the only game in town when it comes to alternative uses for the WRC and without trains running on that line - alternative uses will be "open for discussion" , in the words of a well known Mayo councillor. At least I think that's what he said. Eamon O'Cuiv certainly said it.

I would say on balance the Athlone to Galway greenway is a far higher priority than destroying the railway. Two questions need to be asked;

1: Why did Ciaran Cannon put the interests of wealthy landowners first when he helped to put the kibosh on the Athlone to Galway euro velo route?

2: Is Deputy Cannon’s advocacy of destroying the railway from Athenry to Claremorris to provide a greenway the proverbial dead cat on the table to draw attention away from what he did to stop the euro velo greenway to Galway?

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

3) The government consultant for greenways, who was the speaker in Athenry at a previous presentation regarding greenways (former county engineer Martin Lavelle) recommended bringing a greenway along by the rivers (water) that would pass by historical sites. He stated the greenway by the railway line was not only a bad choice, but since it was earmarked for rail, and owned by Irish rail, it was also pointless to pursue. (It has me thinking the Quietman Greeway leadership is acting like the Grand Old Duke of York, marching the public up and down to no end).

Lets get the facts right here- He supplied a map to one of the local TD's which was later qualified by the same TD as an "option" and not a plan as it involved CPO's from start to finish. A little research on the meaning of riparian rights will bring you up to speed on what it possible and what is fictional. At least he is trying to offer something constuctive, but he seems to be miles off the mark and has zero traction with this "option". On the other hand the Quiet Man Greenway is still the only game in town when it comes to alternative uses for the WRC and without trains running on that line - alternative uses will be "open for discussion" , in the words of a well known Mayo councillor. At least I think that's what he said. Eamon O'Cuiv certainly said it.

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

2) Greenways, as described in gov.ie, in the first paragraph are described as a Tourism Product. It does refer to it as a local amenity

Gov.ie wrote:

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport recognises the benefits that can arise from the further development of Greenways in Ireland, as a tourism product with significant potential to attract overseas visitors, for local communities in terms of economic benefits, and for all users as an amenity for physical activity and a contributor to health and wellbeing.

And further down the same page it says:

Gov.ie wrote:

It also aims to increase the number and geographical spread of Greenways of scale and quality around the country over a 10 year period with a consequent significant increase in the number of people using Greenways as a visitor experience and as a recreational amenity.

As an advocate, my primary interest in this Greenway is as a local amenity on otherwise unused publicly-owned land - tourism is a "nice-to-have" secondary benefit.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Build the Athlone to Galway greenway, and you will have all of the same benefits (arguably to a greater degree), plus the ability to commute to Galway by bicycle from places like Athenry-if aligned correctly.

Why not build both, it's not like the line beyond Athenry is going to see trains in our lifetimes, might as well use it for the benefit of the community

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Haha, I really do have to laugh. An almost verbatim Gerry Murray tactic in dismissing the greenway. I'm seeing a lot of that lately. Not that hard to connect the dots.

Holding to that argument shows the utter lack of comprehension you and others have in relation to the usage of Greenways all over the world. One of the main reasons for usage is long stretches of peaceful travel fully separated from motor vehicles for walkers, cyclist's, young families and people with disabilities.

It's simple really

It's not a tactic, and I've never met Gerry Murray, so I'm not sure why his opinion would be particularly important, but it sounds as if he may be correct. I'm referring to the fact that the entirety of East Galway and the WRC is designated has having a "Low Landscape Value Rating" per Table LCM1 of the Co. Galway Development Plan (See p. 177 of the pdf) http://www.galway.ie/en/media/Galway%20County%20Development%20Plan%202015%20-%202021%20(Written%20Statement)(reduced).pdf

And sorry for my utter lack comprehension, but what you described is a local amenity. Conversely others are expecting a "lucrative greenway" where "local people and businesses [would be] benefiting tenfold" due to visitors, which makes it "therefore bound to succeed and succeed well.” (To cobble together a few quotes from my favorite Galway E. TD in a manner I'm sure he would approve of).

Build the Athlone to Galway greenway, and you will have all of the same benefits (arguably to a greater degree), plus the ability to commute to Galway by bicycle from places like Athenry-if aligned correctly.

Greaney

Deleted User wrote: »

Haha, I really do have to laugh. An almost verbatim Gerry Murray tactic in dismissing the greenway. I'm seeing a lot of that lately. Not that hard to connect the dots.

Holding to that argument shows the utter lack of comprehension you and others have in relation to the usage of Greenways all over the world. One of the main reasons for usage is long stretches of peaceful travel fully separated from motor vehicles for walkers, cyclist's, young families and people with disabilities.

It's simple really

Well actually, this shows the lack of understanding you have about greenways yourself.

1) Since this greenways no.1 sell to the public and supporters is as a tourism product it's good to know that the top 10 greenways in Germany are by water. The top two greenways in Ireland are.... by water.
2) Greenways, as described in gov.ie, in the first paragraph are described as a Tourism Product. It does refer to it as a local amenity however the tourism aspect is front and centre
3) The government consultant for greenways, who was the speaker in Athenry at a previous presentation regarding greenways (former county engineer Martin Lavelle) recommended bringing a greenway along by the rivers (water) that would pass by historical sites. He stated the greenway by the railway line was not only a bad choice, but since it was earmarked for rail, and owned by Irish rail, it was also pointless to pursue. (It has me thinking the Quietman Greeway leadership is acting like the Grand Old Duke of York, marching the public up and down to no end).
4) Greenways are best when they are both looped & linked. The the best stratagey recommended to us in Athenry was to be linked to the Eurovelo and eventually looped back towards Galway.
5) If we want to 'sell' the product to the government to fund a greenway, it's got to tick all the boxes, and if it ticks a few, but there's a better greenway suggestion elsewhere that ticks them all, they'll get the funding.

Finally, I have a sister with a disability whom I try to bring out for a cycle once in a while. I know the reality of it, and I would say, don't overestimate it's use there.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

My point was that the QMG idea does not enjoy fantastic scenery, and that scenery is key in attracting tourists. In that sense, a realised greenway may only rise to the level of a local amenity (which I, like others, would use).

Haha, I really do have to laugh. An almost verbatim Gerry Murray tactic in dismissing the greenway. I'm seeing a lot of that lately. Not that hard to connect the dots.

Holding to that argument shows the utter lack of comprehension you and others have in relation to the usage of Greenways all over the world. One of the main reasons for usage is long stretches of peaceful travel fully separated from motor vehicles for walkers, cyclist's, young families and people with disabilities.

It's simple really

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

If you think that scenery is dull and boring you want to see 6 km either side of Kiltimagh that already has had half a million spent on the velorail project, that is the project approved by West on Track by the way because it doesn't pull the tracks up - you know the tracks that could not be used for a railway anymore because they are fit for nothing, anyway that is another story.

Last time I checked, WOT does not have approval powers of any kind (although certain folk disengaged from the civic process tend to ascribe mythical dictatorial powers to the group).

My point was that the QMG idea does not enjoy fantastic scenery, and that scenery is key in attracting tourists. In that sense, a realised greenway may only rise to the level of a local amenity (which I, like others, would use). But I'd like to see the costs, and I do hope a cost study materialises from Galway Co. Council's current application. If it is on the order of 10 million, I can think of perhaps better amenity uses for those monies than a bicycle trail. A greenway can equally be a dud, even if no one is complaining that only 39 cyclists passed Ballyglunin in a day.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I sadly just watched the whole inspection car video, and that's 48 minutes and 20 seconds of my life that I want back. I know it was filmed in winter and while raining, so you have to use your imagination. But I only see a few areas with half-decent scenery, and the rest is rather boring, straight, and flat. It's not going to attract a lot of tourists, and if you name it the "Quiet Man Greenway," those few tourists are going to feel deceived because it doesn't look the the film, and then they will give you only one or two dots on Tripadvisor.

If you think that scenery is dull and boring you want to see 6 km either side of Kiltimagh that already has had half a million spent on the velorail project, that is the project approved by West on Track by the way because it doesn't pull the tracks up - you know the tracks that could not be used for a railway anymore because they are fit for nothing, anyway that is another story.

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

You obviously don't know the line. The second part of this video from Tuam to Athenry so you can have a look yourself (from 24:00)

In fairness, the line from Athenry to Tuam is pretty straight - it's the section north of Tuam where it starts to get twisty. And as I've said before, WOT will not be satisfied with any potential re-opening which does not go to Claremorris.

Academic anyway, because it's not happening.

ezstreet5

Greaney wrote: »

You obviously don't know the line. The second part of this video from Tuam to Athenry so you can have a look yourself (from 24:00)

I sadly just watched the whole inspection car video, and that's 48 minutes and 20 seconds of my life that I want back. I know it was filmed in winter and while raining, so you have to use your imagination. But I only see a few areas with half-decent scenery, and the rest is rather boring, straight, and flat. It's not going to attract a lot of tourists, and if you name it the "Quiet Man Greenway," those few tourists are going to feel deceived because it doesn't look the the film, and then they will give you only one or two dots on Tripadvisor.

Greaney

westtip wrote: »

Yep that is one area we all agree with WOT on, which is why the greenway is a good idea, if you really want a railway along the west coast build one in a staight line, and don't accept the compromise of twisty turny C19th alignment.

You obviously don't know the line. The second part of this video from Tuam to Athenry so you can have a look yourself (from 24:00)

Sligo eye

ezstreet5 wrote: »

It's weird and pervy. There is no useful purpose.

I certainly think it says more about the author than the rail campaign. I’d say that’s why no one admits to writing it!!

ezstreet5

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Ah now in fairness it’s not that bad, I had a quick look at there and if it keeps the average 3 people that like the posts entertained it serves a useful purpose. They might not get out much

It's weird and pervy. There is no useful purpose.

Greaney

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does the Limerick to Galway route numbers include all Dublin - Galway numbers?

From Dublin? No. They are two seperate trains that you can transfer between in Athenry. The journey you describe wouldn't make sense unless a person coming from Dublin going to Galway gets off two stops before Galway (only 15 mins more to go!!), waits in Athenry for a train to Galway from Limerick which might be hours later, it doesn't make sense.

The transfers on that line only make sense the towns after Tullamore or Ennis either way. For example if some one is traveling from say, Athlone to Limerick they would get off in Athenry & tranfer to Limerick, or say, Gort to Ballinasloe, transfering in Athenry.

Carawaystick

mdmix wrote: »

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/02/12/rail-journey-numbers-at-record-high-for-2019/

Does the Limerick to Galway route numbers include all Dublin - Galway numbers?

ShaneC1600

Muckyboots wrote: »

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

Ah now in fairness it’s not that bad, I had a quick look at there and if it keeps the average 3 people that like the posts entertained it serves a useful purpose. They might not get out much

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

Yeah, take it down!

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

Transport numbers in general in Ireland are up. Road numbers are up, bus numbers are up, rail numbers are up. That's what an economic recovery will do for transport.

However, including numbers travelling from Athenry and Oranmore to Galway, on the Galway-Dublin line, in the Limerick to Galway figures, is ridiculous.

Equally included are numbers on the Ennis-Limerick line. You know, the line that was there before over 100 million euro was spent on the Ennis-Athenry section.

ennis limerick was itself a reopening. passenger services i believe were withdrawn in 1975 along with the rest of the corridor. services were reintroduced i believe in 1994, all though i think there were some irregular specials before hand.
the service is now limerick to galway and has been since the line reopened, with a couple of limerick ennis services i believe, and maybe some galway athennry's only, but ultimately the main service is limerick to galway.

serfboard wrote: »

And how much does the train fare subsidy cost to boost these numbers?

An adult single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€15.20 on Bus Eireann
€15.00 on Citylink
€7.50 on the train

But the deal is even sweeter for students - a student single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€13:30 on Bus Eireann
€13:00 on Citylink
€4.50 on the train.

So, even if it is taking them 40 minutes longer to do the same end-to-end journey, a student looking to go on the bus is paying three times the price.

i would imagine it's multiples less then the money being spent on the road, or if not, that will have to be spent on it in time to come to expand it.
if bus passengers are paying 3 times more then rail fares, then unless those bus services are subsidized themselves, then that is just down to the market i'm afraid.

serfboard

mdmix wrote: »

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

Transport numbers in general in Ireland are up. Road numbers are up, bus numbers are up, rail numbers are up. That's what an economic recovery will do for transport.

However, including numbers travelling from Athenry and Oranmore to Galway, on the Galway-Dublin line, in the Limerick to Galway figures, is ridiculous.

Equally included are numbers on the Ennis-Limerick line. You know, the line that was there before over 100 million euro was spent on the Ennis-Athenry section.

And how much does the train fare subsidy cost to boost these numbers?

An adult single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€15.20 on Bus Eireann
€15.00 on Citylink
€7.50 on the train

But the deal is even sweeter for students - a student single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€13:30 on Bus Eireann
€13:00 on Citylink
€4.50 on the train.

So, even if it is taking them 40 minutes longer to do the same end-to-end journey, a student looking to go on the bus is paying three times the price.

Muckyboots

Sligo eye wrote: »

No it’s more like:

WRT: have you seen our Facebook page taking the piss out of WOT?

WRT: all people who promote the railway are insane cross dressers

WRT: lets call the west the “Whest”

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

mdmix

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/02/12/rail-journey-numbers-at-record-high-for-2019/

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

Well it wouldn’t be the first time anyone who is anti rail has said total nonsense

Ah sure Sligo, don't be getting all maudlin, we all talk nonsense at time sure isn't that why most of us are here, to let off steam and talk nonsense, don't take it all too serious now, don't ya know nobody is taking any notice of us, which is why nothing is getting done. Happy days eh? looks like we are going to get the old firm back in government who will also continue to procrastinate. Five years from now when this thread is full of posts and closed and WRT/WRC thread v 17.6 is up and running we will all be saying the exact same thing. Fun though.

Sligo eye

Greaney wrote: »

I'm on twitter, back and forth, with some dude who swears that to open phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor to rail (he's anti rail) one would need to CPO buildings that have been built on the track to ever use it for rail!!

Well someone has the wrong end of the stick....

CPO's are being used as an excuse to not open it to rail
CPO's, the lack there of, are the reason given that it should be a greenway.

Go figure

Well it wouldn’t be the first time anyone who is anti rail has said total nonsense

Greaney

I'm on twitter, back and forth, with some dude who swears that to open phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor to rail (he's anti rail) one would need to CPO buildings that have been built on the track to ever use it for rail!!

Well someone has the wrong end of the stick....

CPO's are being used as an excuse to not open it to rail
CPO's, the lack there of, are the reason given that it should be a greenway.

Go figure

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

Yep that is one area we all agree with WOT on, which is why the greenway is a good idea, if you really want a railway along the west coast build one in a staight line, and don't accept the compromise of twisty turny C19th alignment, yes lets get double tracking on all lines to the west from the east coast. By all means campaign for a railway but make it something worth having, get a new route for a new railway, this is how the rail lobby really let themselves down with lack of ambition, even the "new" Western Rail Corridor did not serve the main regional internation airport Shannon, it does not take a direct route from Limerick to Galway which is why it is not an intercity route, it is not double tracked or electric, I mean a new railway now should be more than a patch up job. Take a leaf out of the road lobbyists book, do you think the haulage industry would have accepted basically widening the old roads as a solution to the road infrastructure, no. Why not be campaigning that the new Letterkenny to Cork DC when it eventually happens should have a railway along the new alignment as well. Look at yourselves campaigning for poor quality infrastructure, get a grip on yourselves and reinvent the rail campaign. New route, new high speed services, that's what the rail lobby should be looking for. As for the rest of your post, your opinion is noted and at least made me laugh on a Saturday morning, clearly someone is upset diddums.

Athenry to Tuam is perfect for a railway so, 5 curves easily possible to design a 90mph section with double track into Galway. We can start there and maybe plan future infrastructure around existing infrastructure.
In a nut shell you now want people to lobby for a railway on a green field stretch where CPOs would be required so a greenway can be constructed where it's only merit is that it does not require any CPOs? Lack of ambition is a group lobbying for a greenway on the back of greenways in beautifully scenic areas to construct one in an area just because it is CPO free.
Now it's you that's being a comedian!!

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

Yes but no one is looking for both.

IE has several lines being run into the ground and no one cares as they are open. The rest of the lines are not much better in terms of timings and speed.

lots of people care but are stifled at every opportunity when it comes to doing anything about it.
the 2 organisations with any power and who could do something about it, the NTA and CIE/IE won't get behind the lines and their users and support them, they don't really care it seems.
any organisations who could potentially do the opposite have no actual powers, so can do nothing but simply raise issues, only to be either ignored or best case told something will be done, for it to not be in all likely hood.