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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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ShaneC1600

Muckyboots wrote: »

because they live there. Some even run retail/hospitality businesses in the area.

It appears that some would turn down a greenway if offered to them if it wasn’t along that particular route! where's the evidence that that is the case with a credible counter proposal?

If both were built and it was a success it could be a platform for more greenways along railways though!

Correct.[/QUOTE]

1: So do I, doesn’t mean it’s the best place for a greenway.

2: The Dublin to Galway greenway could pass through or could have passed through Athenry but CC wasn’t going to lobby for that one, also the planned Eurovelo is planned to travel from Galway to Sligo but that’s not good enough, it appears (I did say appears) it’s the WRC route is all that group are interested in and they are not all from Tuam or along the route!

3: I’m not against the greenway in any way, I just don’t think that route is the best use of money for a greenway. If it’s built I would use it though!

Muckyboots

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Correct.

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

1: So do I, doesn’t mean it’s the best place for a greenway.

It's a disused asset that could be put to good use for the community. Shovel ready, no CPO's etc etc

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

2: The Dublin to Galway greenway could pass through or could have passed through Athenry but CC wasn’t going to lobby for that one, also the planned Eurovelo is planned to travel from Galway to Sligo but that’s not good enough, it appears (I did say appears) it’s the WRC route is all that group are interested in and they are not all from Tuam or along the route!

All 20 of the steering group are from Tuam, Athenry and Milltown. Not everyone in that group likes to argue in public.

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

3: I’m not against the greenway in any way, I just don’t think that route is the best use of money for a greenway. If it’s built I would use it though!

Same with me - if they put a train to Athenry. It would be lovely and that's about the best I could say. But I'd use it for a day out- if they build it.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

Well on reflection I think this might happen, Sinn Fein have been committed to the WRC for decades - all part of the All Ireland plan for transport, they will build the WRC to Tuam and probably to Claremorris as a flagship project to say look what we are doing for rural ireland, the money will be diverted from one of the major road projects. Of course the project will do very little for rural Ireland but it will be nice to have, in particular as i approach the years in which I get free travel pass, who knows they may even put a greenway in alongside and deliver both, but I doubt it, in a way that would be the honourable thing to do to satisfy both parties in this debate. God knows what kind of service that may be provided on this single track line to Claremorris but it will keep the commander in chief in Claremorris happy. Tuam traffic will be choked up by railway crossings

I think the election result will make no actual difference at all to this. There is no infinite pot of money, and one of the things SF will learn is how easy it is in opposition to promise everything to everyone, and how hard it is to deliver in practice, when choices have to be made.

And choices will have to be made - and one of them will be to do nothing on the WRC but let it rot for however long SF are in power until the next crowd comes in and does nothing about it either. And when I say nothing, I mean neither railway nor Greenway.

Muckyboots

serfboard wrote: »

I think the election result will make no actual difference at all to this. There is no infinite pot of money, and one of the things SF will learn is how easy it is in opposition to promise everything to everyone, and how hard it is to deliver in practice, when choices have to be made.

And choices will have to be made - and one of them will be to do nothing on the WRC but let it rot for however long SF are in power until the next crowd comes in and does nothing about it either. And when I say nothing, I mean neither railway nor Greenway.

Sorry to say, but you might be right.

Greaney

Muckyboots wrote: »

because they live there. Some even run retail/hospitality businesses in the area.

It appears that some would turn down a greenway if offered to them if it wasn’t along that particular route! where's the evidence that that is the case with a credible counter proposal?

If both were built and it was a success it could be a platform for more greenways along railways though!

Correct.[/QUOTE]

I know a hospitality/tourism business on that route and they said they'd have prefered rail... not that it matters now, they had to close, insurance costs are closing everything.

A tweet posting this morning on this thread, dunno if it's posted on the business page yet...
Another small business closing down this weekend as no insurance quote available. The bike hire business at Coillte's Ballyhoura mountain bike trail centre. A thriving local business in a rural area generating rural income. Legislate now to control settlement payments.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Correct.

I know a hospitality/tourism business on that route and they said they'd have prefered rail... not that it matters now, they had to close, insurance costs are closing everything.

A tweet posting this morning on this thread, dunno if it's posted on the business page yet...
[/QUOTE]

You are kind of proving my point there with the Ballyhoura success. The greenway campaign started in Tuam, and laterally Athenry because people have given up hope on the prospect of a return of rail services. Spin from WOT simply doesn't wash outside of Mayo and rail reports that take five years to start, get flashed like ace cards when needed and then disappear just weeks before an election doesn't instil any confidence in the rail purveyors. People just don't believe it will happen and some believe if it does it may be just dodgy cargos, not suitable for road haulage, shipped by freight trains through the towns late at night. If it returns to commuter trains, even if there is no greenway alongside, that's fine. It'll be lovely and much better than nothing. The insurance problem is a completely different issue though.

westtip

Greaney wrote: »

Mind you, there is a greenway planned from Sligo to Galway AKA the Atlantic coast route.

Likewise, not every railway is going to be jammed with people within a month.

As MB said teh eurovelo route 1 is not a greenway as it will mainly be on existing roads shared with vehicles, and would not be children and wheelchair friendly usable, it's a line on a map and will likely remain so; If it were to be an entirely new route the level of CPO required makes it an impossibility of ever happening, look at the experience of Dublin - Galway greenway proposed CPOs to understand why Eurovelo 1 is a piped dream someone has simply drawn a line and said sure wouldn't that make a lovely cycle route. Its the age old argument that the whole point of the Athenry Collooney route is (1) a railway is not going to be built anytime soon (2) the land is still in public ownership as a linear route therefore the biggest issue CPO does not exist (3) if (1) becomes an actual liklihood the land the land would be be held in public ownership under strict licensed to use as a greenway case. (4) By the way West on Track agree to this licensed model as they fully support the use of the closed railway for use as a velorail in Mayo in the full knowledge the old tracks are meaningless as they would not be fit for purpose as a railway. so Velorail/greenway it makes no difference in terms of future use under the licensed model if route is required for rail it is required for rail end of. But sure you know all this.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

West on Track ... fully support the use of the closed railway for use as a velorail in Mayo

So the argument goes like this:

WOT: "Only trains on this route"
WRT: "What about a Greenway, until the trains come back?"
WOT: "Didn't you hear what I said? Only trains on this route".
Velorail Crowd: "What about a velorail, until the trains come back?"
WOT: "Oh yeah, that'd be grand. So long as it's not them feckin' walkers and cyclists".

Sligo eye

serfboard wrote: »

So the argument goes like this:

WOT: "Only trains on this route"
WRT: "What about a Greenway, until the trains come back?"
WOT: "Didn't you hear what I said? Only trains on this route".
Velorail Crowd: "What about a velorail, until the trains come back?"
WOT: "Oh yeah, that'd be grand. So long as it's not them feckin' walkers and cyclists".

No it’s more like:

WOT: We want planned development in the West of Ireland with improved infrastructure

WRT: have you seen our Facebook page taking the piss out of WOT?

WRT: I know where the WOT people live, let’s tell everyone

WRT: all people who promote the railway are insane cross dressers

WRT: lets all spam the western county councils with emails

WRT: lets all tell the councillors in the west how to vote

WRT: lets tell everyone in the west how to vote

WRT: lets call the west the “Whest”

WOT: We want planned development in the West of Ireland with improved infrastructure

Isambard

well if it's planned infrastructure you want, why not put your efforts firstly into improving the existing rail lines which are pretty dire in fairness. Failing to do this makes people believe that really you just want to watch the trains go by like they used to

[Deleted User]

Reusing a twisty and windy rail alignment designed for steam engines is not good infrastructure, its settling for the bare minimum instead of aspiring for something better

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

No it’s more like:

WOT: We want planned development in the West of Ireland with improved infrastructure

Yep that is one area we all agree with WOT on, which is why the greenway is a good idea, if you really want a railway along the west coast build one in a staight line, and don't accept the compromise of twisty turny C19th alignment, yes lets get double tracking on all lines to the west from the east coast. By all means campaign for a railway but make it something worth having, get a new route for a new railway, this is how the rail lobby really let themselves down with lack of ambition, even the "new" Western Rail Corridor did not serve the main regional internation airport Shannon, it does not take a direct route from Limerick to Galway which is why it is not an intercity route, it is not double tracked or electric, I mean a new railway now should be more than a patch up job. Take a leaf out of the road lobbyists book, do you think the haulage industry would have accepted basically widening the old roads as a solution to the road infrastructure, no. Why not be campaigning that the new Letterkenny to Cork DC when it eventually happens should have a railway along the new alignment as well. Look at yourselves campaigning for poor quality infrastructure, get a grip on yourselves and reinvent the rail campaign. New route, new high speed services, that's what the rail lobby should be looking for. As for the rest of your post, your opinion is noted and at least made me laugh on a Saturday morning, clearly someone is upset diddums.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

well if it's planned infrastructure you want, why not put your efforts firstly into improving the existing rail lines which are pretty dire in fairness. Failing to do this makes people believe that really you just want to watch the trains go by like they used to

it is possible to do both and look for both.
i know it's hard to believe, but irish people are well capable of supporting multiple things at the same time.

donvito99

end of the road wrote: »

it is possible to do both and look for both.
i know it's hard to believe, but irish people are well capable of supporting multiple things at the same time.

Railways are not built with "support" but rather money which is always in limited supply.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

it is possible to do both and look for both.
i know it's hard to believe, but irish people are well capable of supporting multiple things at the same time.

Yes but no one is looking for both.

IE has several lines being run into the ground and no one cares as they are open. The rest of the lines are not much better in terms of timings and speed.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

Yes but no one is looking for both.

IE has several lines being run into the ground and no one cares as they are open. The rest of the lines are not much better in terms of timings and speed.

lots of people care but are stifled at every opportunity when it comes to doing anything about it.
the 2 organisations with any power and who could do something about it, the NTA and CIE/IE won't get behind the lines and their users and support them, they don't really care it seems.
any organisations who could potentially do the opposite have no actual powers, so can do nothing but simply raise issues, only to be either ignored or best case told something will be done, for it to not be in all likely hood.

ShaneC1600

westtip wrote: »

Yep that is one area we all agree with WOT on, which is why the greenway is a good idea, if you really want a railway along the west coast build one in a staight line, and don't accept the compromise of twisty turny C19th alignment, yes lets get double tracking on all lines to the west from the east coast. By all means campaign for a railway but make it something worth having, get a new route for a new railway, this is how the rail lobby really let themselves down with lack of ambition, even the "new" Western Rail Corridor did not serve the main regional internation airport Shannon, it does not take a direct route from Limerick to Galway which is why it is not an intercity route, it is not double tracked or electric, I mean a new railway now should be more than a patch up job. Take a leaf out of the road lobbyists book, do you think the haulage industry would have accepted basically widening the old roads as a solution to the road infrastructure, no. Why not be campaigning that the new Letterkenny to Cork DC when it eventually happens should have a railway along the new alignment as well. Look at yourselves campaigning for poor quality infrastructure, get a grip on yourselves and reinvent the rail campaign. New route, new high speed services, that's what the rail lobby should be looking for. As for the rest of your post, your opinion is noted and at least made me laugh on a Saturday morning, clearly someone is upset diddums.

Athenry to Tuam is perfect for a railway so, 5 curves easily possible to design a 90mph section with double track into Galway. We can start there and maybe plan future infrastructure around existing infrastructure.
In a nut shell you now want people to lobby for a railway on a green field stretch where CPOs would be required so a greenway can be constructed where it's only merit is that it does not require any CPOs? Lack of ambition is a group lobbying for a greenway on the back of greenways in beautifully scenic areas to construct one in an area just because it is CPO free.
Now it's you that's being a comedian!!

Greaney

I'm on twitter, back and forth, with some dude who swears that to open phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor to rail (he's anti rail) one would need to CPO buildings that have been built on the track to ever use it for rail!!

Well someone has the wrong end of the stick....

CPO's are being used as an excuse to not open it to rail
CPO's, the lack there of, are the reason given that it should be a greenway.

Go figure

Sligo eye

Greaney wrote: »

I'm on twitter, back and forth, with some dude who swears that to open phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor to rail (he's anti rail) one would need to CPO buildings that have been built on the track to ever use it for rail!!

Well someone has the wrong end of the stick....

CPO's are being used as an excuse to not open it to rail
CPO's, the lack there of, are the reason given that it should be a greenway.

Go figure

Well it wouldn’t be the first time anyone who is anti rail has said total nonsense

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

Well it wouldn’t be the first time anyone who is anti rail has said total nonsense

Ah sure Sligo, don't be getting all maudlin, we all talk nonsense at time sure isn't that why most of us are here, to let off steam and talk nonsense, don't take it all too serious now, don't ya know nobody is taking any notice of us, which is why nothing is getting done. Happy days eh? looks like we are going to get the old firm back in government who will also continue to procrastinate. Five years from now when this thread is full of posts and closed and WRT/WRC thread v 17.6 is up and running we will all be saying the exact same thing. Fun though.

mdmix

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/02/12/rail-journey-numbers-at-record-high-for-2019/

Muckyboots

Sligo eye wrote: »

No it’s more like:

WRT: have you seen our Facebook page taking the piss out of WOT?

WRT: all people who promote the railway are insane cross dressers

WRT: lets call the west the “Whest”

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

serfboard

mdmix wrote: »

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

Transport numbers in general in Ireland are up. Road numbers are up, bus numbers are up, rail numbers are up. That's what an economic recovery will do for transport.

However, including numbers travelling from Athenry and Oranmore to Galway, on the Galway-Dublin line, in the Limerick to Galway figures, is ridiculous.

Equally included are numbers on the Ennis-Limerick line. You know, the line that was there before over 100 million euro was spent on the Ennis-Athenry section.

And how much does the train fare subsidy cost to boost these numbers?

An adult single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€15.20 on Bus Eireann
€15.00 on Citylink
€7.50 on the train

But the deal is even sweeter for students - a student single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€13:30 on Bus Eireann
€13:00 on Citylink
€4.50 on the train.

So, even if it is taking them 40 minutes longer to do the same end-to-end journey, a student looking to go on the bus is paying three times the price.

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

Transport numbers in general in Ireland are up. Road numbers are up, bus numbers are up, rail numbers are up. That's what an economic recovery will do for transport.

However, including numbers travelling from Athenry and Oranmore to Galway, on the Galway-Dublin line, in the Limerick to Galway figures, is ridiculous.

Equally included are numbers on the Ennis-Limerick line. You know, the line that was there before over 100 million euro was spent on the Ennis-Athenry section.

ennis limerick was itself a reopening. passenger services i believe were withdrawn in 1975 along with the rest of the corridor. services were reintroduced i believe in 1994, all though i think there were some irregular specials before hand.
the service is now limerick to galway and has been since the line reopened, with a couple of limerick ennis services i believe, and maybe some galway athennry's only, but ultimately the main service is limerick to galway.

serfboard wrote: »

And how much does the train fare subsidy cost to boost these numbers?

An adult single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€15.20 on Bus Eireann
€15.00 on Citylink
€7.50 on the train

But the deal is even sweeter for students - a student single fare from Limerick to Galway costs:

€13:30 on Bus Eireann
€13:00 on Citylink
€4.50 on the train.

So, even if it is taking them 40 minutes longer to do the same end-to-end journey, a student looking to go on the bus is paying three times the price.

i would imagine it's multiples less then the money being spent on the road, or if not, that will have to be spent on it in time to come to expand it.
if bus passengers are paying 3 times more then rail fares, then unless those bus services are subsidized themselves, then that is just down to the market i'm afraid.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

Yeah, take it down!

ShaneC1600

Muckyboots wrote: »

The said FB page should be taken down. Not nice. Not funny. Not helpful.

Ah now in fairness it’s not that bad, I had a quick look at there and if it keeps the average 3 people that like the posts entertained it serves a useful purpose. They might not get out much

Carawaystick

mdmix wrote: »

might be of interest to this thread. I know the figures are somewhat disputed, but here is the latest update. for context limerick to Dublin is just over twice the amount below.

"The Limerick to Galway route also showed continuing significant growth and, with 531,000 journeys, exceeded half a million for the first time: up 16 per cent from 2018."

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/02/12/rail-journey-numbers-at-record-high-for-2019/

Does the Limerick to Galway route numbers include all Dublin - Galway numbers?

Greaney

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does the Limerick to Galway route numbers include all Dublin - Galway numbers?

From Dublin? No. They are two seperate trains that you can transfer between in Athenry. The journey you describe wouldn't make sense unless a person coming from Dublin going to Galway gets off two stops before Galway (only 15 mins more to go!!), waits in Athenry for a train to Galway from Limerick which might be hours later, it doesn't make sense.

The transfers on that line only make sense the towns after Tullamore or Ennis either way. For example if some one is traveling from say, Athlone to Limerick they would get off in Athenry & tranfer to Limerick, or say, Gort to Ballinasloe, transfering in Athenry.

ezstreet5

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Ah now in fairness it’s not that bad, I had a quick look at there and if it keeps the average 3 people that like the posts entertained it serves a useful purpose. They might not get out much

It's weird and pervy. There is no useful purpose.

Sligo eye

ezstreet5 wrote: »

It's weird and pervy. There is no useful purpose.

I certainly think it says more about the author than the rail campaign. I’d say that’s why no one admits to writing it!!