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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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10000maniacs

Johnson has gotten rid of the Tory remainers, and now he is going after the anti no dealers.
That means only one thing. Crash out a coming.

gooch2k9

If Javid won't accept the PM essentially sacking his advisors, and is willing to step down over the point, then why in the name of God is he saying he'll support the PM and government from the backbenches?

It's nonsensical. I never had much faith in Javid either way, I've seen him as a careerist to date, but the Treasury being under direct control of No10 is worse.

Joe_ Public

gooch2k9 wrote: »

If Javid won't accept the PM essentially sacking his advisors, and is willing to step down over the point, then why in the name of God is he saying he'll support the PM and government from the backbenches?

It's nonsensical. I never had much faith in Javid either way, I've seen him as a careerist to date, but the Treasury being under direct control of No10 is worse.

You answered your own question: he's a careerist so taking himself off the front bench is as much as his principles will allow. He doesnt want to make himself an irrelevance like rory stewart. Can bide his time on the backbenchers, see how the brexit sh!tshow unfolds and play the long game.

AllForIt

Nauseating to see that awful whinger Dominic Grieve back on the airwaves today after a hiatus from the media and lashing into his own party over reshuffle news in the style you'd expect from the opposition. Even in the case that he were 100% right in what he's saying wouldn't you think he'd have some party loyalty and leave that kind of stuff to the opposition. What a traitor and very sore looser. I suppose when you spend a whole 3 years whinging it's hard just suddenly stop. He really does epitomize the worst of the remainer contingent. Clearly he still hasn't gotten over his personal Brexit loss and doesn't intend getting over it. Well I hope he enjoy's where he's chosen to dwell but all he does is leave himself open to ridicule.

Having said that I think it is sad to see Javid leave his job. It was good to have a Muslim in a top job and he seems like a descent enough bloke.

Peregrinus

AllForIt wrote: »

Nauseating to see that awful whinger Dominic Grieve back on the airwaves today after a hiatus from the media and lashing into his own party over reshuffle news in the style you'd expect from the opposition. Even in the case that he were 100% right in what he's saying wouldn't you think he'd have some party loyalty and leave that kind of stuff to the opposition. What a traitor and very sore looser. I suppose when you spend a whole 3 years whinging it's hard just suddenly stop. He really does epitomize the worst of the remainer contingent. Clearly he still hasn't gotten over his personal Brexit loss and doesn't intend getting over it. Well I hope he enjoy's where he's chosen to dwell but all he does is leave himself open to ridicule.

Having said that I think it is sad to see Javid leave his job. It was good to have a Muslim in a top job and he seems like a descent enough bloke.

The irony! The irony! It burns!

Javid was fired because he would not display the loyalty demanded by Johnson/Cummings. His resignation letter is extremely subversive; it would tend to end the career of any Prime Minister being held to ordinary standards by his party.

What distinguishes Grieve and Javid is not that one was loyal and the other was not; both were disloyal. It is that one is a Remainer and the other a Brexitger. I think this is the real reason for the distinction you make between them, but either you choose not to admit that or you are so blinding by Brexit groupthink that you are unaware of it.

Peregrinus

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Johnson is on a mission. But needs Cummings to achieve the results.

Other way round, I fear.

Peregrinus

Strazdas wrote: »

Tommie Gorman thinks it might be connected to the legacy issues of British troops in NI. Apparently Johnson wasn't happy with his stance on this.

This. Word is that Johson felt he had been blindsided by some of the stuff that Smith agreed to in relation to investigation/prosecution of historic crimes by the security forces.

Word from the other camp is that, if Johnson was "blindsided" by anything, it was because he didn't read his papers, or listen to the cabinet discussions, in both of which the matter was fully aired.

jm08

Peregrinus wrote: »

This. Word is that Johson felt he had been blindsided by some of the stuff that Smith agreed to in relation to investigation/prosecution of historic crimes by the security forces.

Word from the other camp is that, if Johnson was "blindsided" by anything, it was because he didn't read his papers, or listen to the cabinet discussions, in both of which the matter was fully aired.

Telegraph are saying its because of his stance on Brexit and also his lack of support for the prorogation of parliament, but are saying No. 10 was trying to blame it on legacy issues by saying JS didn't inform No. 10, which of course is untrue as Smith was in No. 10 before it was agreed.

It must have been common knowledge anyway as Simon and Julian came out together and threatened to publish the details of the proposed agreement which spurred the DUP to agree.

Peregrinus

jm08 wrote: »

Telegraph are saying its because of his stance on Brexit and also his lack of support for the prorogation of parliament, but are saying No. 10 was trying to blame it on legacy issues by saying JS didn't inform No. 10, which of course is untrue as Smith was in No. 10 before it was agreed.

Either way, these are all really bad reasons for sacking him. By his own account, Johnson wants to heal the country and unite the party so that Britain can step forward cheerfully and confidently into the sunny uplands. Taking petty revenge on one of your most competent and successful ministers because he opposed you in the past is a poor strategy for acheiving that objective.

Strazdas

Peregrinus wrote: »

This. Word is that Johson felt he had been blindsided by some of the stuff that Smith agreed to in relation to investigation/prosecution of historic crimes by the security forces.

Word from the other camp is that, if Johnson was "blindsided" by anything, it was because he didn't read his papers, or listen to the cabinet discussions, in both of which the matter was fully aired.

That sounds totally plausible. Apparently he is useless at detail.

I've no idea where the idea has come from that he is some sort of intellectual. He seems to be a big eejit who has learned off a few Latin phrases. Even Theresa May appears to be far more intelligent than him.

AllForIt

Peregrinus wrote: »

The irony! The irony! It burns!

Javid was fired because he would not display the loyalty demanded by Johnson/Cummings. His resignation letter is extremely subversive; it would tend to end the career of any Prime Minister being held to ordinary standards by his party.

What distinguishes Grieve and Javid is not that one was loyal and the other was not; both were disloyal. It is that one is a Remainer and the other a Brexitger. I think this is the real reason for the distinction you make between them, but either you choose not to admit that or you are so blinding by Brexit groupthink that you are unaware of it.

He wasn't fired - he resigned.

You talk about irony but when Johnson seeks to have treasury advisers replaced that doesn't fit his purpose for whatever reason for which I think he's entitled - everyone else says he should sack his adviser.

So which is it? Who should decide what advisers one has. It's not like Javid did much to win the election, it was all about Boris and I think he's perfectly entitled to get what he wants.

As for you final comment - you seem to have a habit of being deliberately obscure thus I'm not bothered to try and figure it out or respond.

[Deleted User]

AllForIt wrote: »

So which is it? Who should decide what advisers one has.

Typically, it would be the person being advised.

Peregrinus

AllForIt wrote: »

He wasn't fired - he resigned.

He was fired, in that he was told he would only be reappointed to his office if he dismissed his advisers and replaced them with nominees of Dominic Cummings, a condition he was not willing to accept. Since he was not willing to accept it, he could not continue in office. Only a Brexiter could frame this as resignation rather than dismissal.

AllForIt wrote: »

You talk about irony but when Johnson seeks to have treasury advisers replaced that doesn't fit his purpose for whatever reason for which I think he's entitled - everyone else says he should sack his adviser.

So which is it? Who should decide what advisers one has. It's not like Javid did much to win the election, it was all about Boris and I think he's perfectly entitled to get what he wants.

Johnson is entitled to appoint his own advisers, obviously, but the idea that the Prime Minister appoints other ministers' advisers is a constitional novelty, not just in the UK but in other parliamentary democracies. You may think that Johson is entitled to get what he wants, but your resons for thinking so are not very persuasive. Other party leaders before Johnson have won elections; it has not occurred to any of them that this means they are now entitled to appoint advisers to ministers other than themselves.

AllForIt wrote: »

As for you final comment - you seem to have a habit of being deliberately obscure thus I'm not bothered to try and figure it out or respond.

Let me be clearer, so: You hold Javid and Grieve to different standards of loyalty because one is a Brexiter and the other a Remainer, but you are in denial about this.

Zubeneschamali

AllForIt wrote: »

it was all about Boris and I think he's perfectly entitled to get what he wants.

Best of luck with the budget!

[Deleted User]

Commentary from Tony Connelly re the EU and the application of EU law to NI post 31st December. They mean business......

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1228230488885624832?s=20

wexfordman2

AllForIt wrote: »

Nauseating to see that awful whinger Dominic Grieve back on the airwaves today after a hiatus from the media and lashing into his own party over reshuffle news in the style you'd expect from the opposition. Even in the case that he were 100% right in what he's saying wouldn't you think he'd have some party loyalty and leave that kind of stuff to the opposition. What a traitor and very sore looser. I suppose when you spend a whole 3 years whinging it's hard just suddenly stop. He really does epitomize the worst of the remainer contingent. Clearly he still hasn't gotten over his personal Brexit loss and doesn't intend getting over it. Well I hope he enjoy's where he's chosen to dwell but all he does is leave himself open to ridicule.

Having said that I think it is sad to see Javid leave his job. It was good to have a Muslim in a top job and he seems like a descent enough bloke.

Party before country eh, FF would be proud of you on this side of the pond.

Panrich

A very small taster is what is to come for some of the less well informed Brexiter

https://twitter.com/ColinBrowning14/status/1227906931450425344

I can only wonder what the expectations of what life will be like in a no deal scenario exists in some peoples minds.

10000maniacs

AllForIt wrote: »

Nauseating to see that awful whinger Dominic Grieve back on the airwaves today after a hiatus from the media and lashing into his own party over reshuffle news in the style you'd expect from the opposition. Even in the case that he were 100% right in what he's saying wouldn't you think he'd have some party loyalty and leave that kind of stuff to the opposition. What a traitor and very sore looser. I suppose when you spend a whole 3 years whinging it's hard just suddenly stop. He really does epitomize the worst of the remainer contingent. Clearly he still hasn't gotten over his personal Brexit loss and doesn't intend getting over it. Well I hope he enjoy's where he's chosen to dwell but all he does is leave himself open to ridicule.

Having said that I think it is sad to see Javid leave his job. It was good to have a Muslim in a top job and he seems like a descent enough bloke.

What are you talking about? Grieve was one of the good guys. England is now the Cummings/Johnson regime and the sad thing is it would never have happened if Varadkar had not signed off on that Withdrawal agreement "deal". Then, the remainers would have still had the opportunity to stop the whole crap shoot in its tracks.
Expect more of the same anti democratic totalitarian nonsense from Johnson/Cummings over the next few years. And enjoy England crashing out of the EU with no deal. And crashing out of the Union eventually too.

seamus

Panrich wrote: »

A very small taster is what is to come for some of the less well informed Brexiter

I can only wonder what the expectations of what life will be like in a no deal scenario exists in some peoples minds.

It's quite incredible that this is not satire.

We spent the last four years ridiculing the stereotype of the Brexiteer who demanded that the UK get out of the EU while also retaining all of the benefits of being in it.

And here he is, in all his glory.

I guarantee though that he places all the blame on the EU "punishing" the UK for leaving.

ancapailldorcha

Panrich wrote: »

A very small taster is what is to come for some of the less well informed Brexiter

https://twitter.com/ColinBrowning14/status/1227906931450425344

I can only wonder what the expectations of what life will be like in a no deal scenario exists in some peoples minds.

I mean.... Ending freedom of movement.... You end freedom of movement and now you complain when movement now takes longer...

Is this just some bizarre brand of English exceptionalism at work here? Only the lesser peoples of Europe are to have their freedom of movement rights curtailed?

murphaph

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I mean.... Ending freedom of movement.... You end freedom of movement and now you complain when movement now takes longer...

Is this just some bizarre brand of English exceptionalism at work here? Only the lesser peoples of Europe are to have their freedom of movement rights curtailed?

In a word, yes.

Leroy42

FoM hasn't been stopped yet has it? I thought everything was still the same until end of transition period?

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

FoM hasn't been stopped yet has it? I thought everything was still the same until end of transition period?

Some of the responses to the thread show it's just a bit of 'having on.' FOM is still in place.

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

FoM hasn't been stopped yet has it? I thought everything was still the same until end of transition period?

So did I. Perhaps airports and governments want to use the period to modify their immigration controls to accommodate for Brexit.

Winters

It may just be Schiphol which has a quirky way of handling passport control.

Daemonic

quokula

Nothing to stop British people putting themselves in non-EU queues though. I know in the immediate aftermath of the referendum I tried to post something home to Ireland and the guy in the post office insisted on forcing me to fill in customs paperwork because he had his sovereignty back.

BonnieSituation

10000maniacs wrote: »

What are you talking about? Grieve was one of the good guys. England is now the Cummings/Johnson regime and the sad thing is it would never have happened if Varadkar had not signed off on that Withdrawal agreement "deal". Then, the remainers would have still had the opportunity to stop the whole crap shoot in its tracks.
Expect more of the same anti democratic totalitarian nonsense from Johnson/Cummings over the next few years. And enjoy England crashing out of the EU with no deal. And crashing out of the Union eventually too.

It's Varadkar's fault?

Good Lord

BonnieSituation

Winters wrote: »

It may just be Schiphol which has a quirky way of handling passport control.

Tbf, with the right combination of flights landing at Schiphol you can well be stuck in that queue a while. Especially of you use your passport card.

C'est la vie.

10000maniacs

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's Varadkar's fault?

Good Lord

No, but he should have known well not to trust Johnson at his word. I mean a few weeks earlier Johnson was closing down democracy to get his way.