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When will men get liberated from gender roles?

mr_fegelien

60 years ago, any woman who would have worn trousers would have been laughed at like a man wearing skirts in modern times. Today, women wearing pants elicits no response.

Women also can take up STEM subjects, don't have to get married, can act masculine, are leaders of countries etc...

Yet men are still ridiculed for wearing feminine attire, choosing careers like nursing, etc..

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

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VayNiice

The only reasons I can see for someone having a problem with what another person wears is:

A) they're a narrow minded bigot

Or

They're in denial about their own wants/desires

So which is it?

Thankfully as time moves on and the scars of the Catholic Church are no longer present in the younger generations, we'll see less and less of these types of arseholes.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

You really don't like men who have an issue with feminism do you...it's like you can't compute how anyone can think differently to you...

This is an online forum, where ordinary folk get to discuss the topic of the day...none of us are changing the world!!!

I believe that feminism is negatively affecting young men and young women for different reasons, you don't...it's fine to disagree.

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were discussing men's rights and solving men's issues, it's relevant to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were did using men's rights a d solving men's issues, it's release any to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

You are not making any sense.

What is recreational whinging? Is there professional whingers? Are feminists professional whingers then? Do men need professional whingers do you think?

This is an online forum...people will disagree with you, it's not the end of the world...unless you are insecure or unsure of yourself of course, then it will gnaw at you...

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are not making any sense.

What is recreational whinging? Is there professional whingers? Are feminists professional whingers then? Do men need professional whingers do you think?

This is an online forum...people will disagree with you, it's not the end of the world...unless you are insecure or unsure of yourself of course, then it will gnaw at you...

It’s fairly simple, he’s saying sh1tting on feminism doesn’t improve anything for marginalised men.

One eyed Jack

mr_fegelien wrote: »

But your belief represents a sizeable majority in society who think that men look ridiculous in dresses.

If everyone started wearing it, wouldn't it look "normal" and become accepted after 20-30 years?

No, it would become the norm, but that wouldn’t mean a person wouldn’t still look ridiculous. Take your earlier example of a portrait of Louis 14th. Louis is a perfect example at the time of the kind of person who demands acceptance from the majority for their oddball ideas -

It took more than two decades for King Louis XIII and his wife, Anne, to have Louis XIV as their first child. So relieved were the royal couple to have a direct heir to the throne that they christened the boy Louis-Dieudonné, meaning “gift of God.” If the name alone didn’t give Louis XIV an inflated sense of himself, Mazarin also instilled in the boy the notion that kings are divinely chosen. Reflecting that belief, Louis XIV believed any disobedience to his edicts to be sinful, and he adopted the sun as his emblem since France revolved around him as the planets revolved around the sun.

7 Fascinating Facts About King Louis XIV

KiKi III

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

In other words please stop calling out feminists for their bs.

Nope, feel free to call feminists out as you please. Just know that it won’t improve anything for marginalised or underprivileged men.

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

It’s fairly simple, he’s saying sh1tting on feminism doesn’t improve anything for marginalised men.

Actually exposing the dishonesty and infantile nature of today's Feminist movement is very relevant to the lives of ordinary men and women by the way or would you just prefer if we kept our mouths shut.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Let's just say your workplace is a bit more 'woke' than mine

But why I can't I ask the lad in the dress why came in like that? What's wrong with asking? I would ask.

And if the 50yo creep dressed up for work as a schoolgirl, you surely wouldn't have a problem, right?

It wasn’t woke. It was a pretty staid government agency and this was a decade ago.

Nobody is going to work dressed as a schoolgirl. But if they did, I know I’d not comment because I didn’t comment when somebody wore tight gold cycling shorts. On the weirdness scale, those two things are not that far apart. If someone dresses as a schoolgirl in work, I’d think “Okay, they’re doing themselves no favours there but it’s their life”. Genuinely.

lozenges

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Those clothes don't bother me, why would they?

Now here's a question, why do you need my acceptance so badly?

A man in a kilt is wearing a skirt. A man in a robe is wearing a dress.
Why does this not bother you in certain contexts but offend you so gravely in others?
I'm curious.

the_pen_turner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course it's fine to disagree. I completely gat that you think differently to me.

The fact is that people are free to whinge about feminism and they're free to campaign to solve the problems that affect men. But don't be foolish enough to think Whinging about feminism IS doing anything to help solve men's issues. That's all.

Recreational Whinging about feminism is a foundation stone of AH. But since we were did using men's rights a d solving men's issues, it's release any to point out the fact that whining about feminism IS completely beside the point of solving men's issues.

while i understand your logic m surely that aplies to most discusions online and beteen people in real life. i often talk about issues, personal and political . i know it wont change anything .

that doesnt mean its not worth discussing. surely if anyone reading about mens issues or that most of modern femanism is BS then surely its a good thing

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it would become the norm, but that wouldn’t mean a person wouldn’t still look ridiculous. Take your earlier example of a portrait of Louis 14th. Louis is a perfect example at the time of the kind of person who demands acceptance from the majority for their oddball ideas -

But France previously and during that period was the leader in fashion, and culture... which is why French clothes, and language were adopted by the wealthy across all of Europe. It wasn't simply Louis 14th who dressed in that fashion, but the wealthy pretty much everywhere (if they cared at all about being fashionable).

spurious

Are there any women* posting here who would have a big problem with a man wearing a skirt?

*Yes, I know there are no women on the Internet.

[Deleted User]

KiKi III wrote: »

Nope, feel free to call feminists out as you please. Just know that it won’t improve anything for marginalised or underprivileged men.

Well, actually, I would consider you to be incorrect there. The reason that radical feminism has gained so much momentum in society is that males tried to ignore it. It was too extreme. Too aggressive. The promoters of such were too weird, and full of hatred to be accepted. Instead, those ideas were allowed to filter from the internet into mainstream society, and gain acceptance.

If males wish to stop the spread of misandry then, they should take every opportunity to call feminism out on its' double standards, hypocrisy, and BS. It'll be the only way to oppose the stereotypes that feminists are comfortable promoting about males, which are held up within the law especially in the family courts.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But France previously and during that period was the leader in fashion, and culture... which is why French clothes, and language were adopted by the wealthy across all of Europe. It wasn't simply Louis 14th who dressed in that fashion, but the wealthy pretty much everywhere (if they cared at all about being fashionable).

Yep, that’s the key point I’m making - dressing like that certainly wasn’t the norm for men at the time. It was the norm for a small minority of society - the aristocracy, the nobility. Ordinary people didn’t look or dress anything like that.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

Yeah sure you wouldn't comment, you wouldn't talk about it with girls in the canteen haha.

But sure, important to convince strangers on the internet that you're 'tolerant', right?

I wouldn’t comment to the person. Not everyone is pass-remarkable, you know? I know some people think every thought they have is worth vocalising but not everyone shares that view.

I’ve given solid real-world examples. Those things happened to me. I’m not speaking theoretically here.

One eyed Jack

lozenges wrote: »

A man in a kilt is wearing a skirt. A man in a robe is wearing a dress.
Why does this not bother you in certain contexts but offend you so gravely in others?
I'm curious.

Kilts are not skirts, and robes are not dresses.

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

Actually exposing the dishonesty and infantile nature of today's Feminist movement is very relevant to the lives of ordinary men and women by the way or would you just prefer if we kept our mouths shut.

The narrative that as a feminist I want you to shut up is one that you’ve created. It doesn’t fit with my own beliefs nor what I know of the feminist movement.

In my view, feminism encourages men to speak out in ways traditional views masculinity might have prevented them from doing.

I’m interested in all kinds of people from all walks of life and I’m interested in hearing about all aspects of the male experience of life.

I believe in empowered women and empowered men. I think that’s the way forward.

I think taking positive steps to address the challenges men face would be a better way of spending time than getting mad about feminists on the internet.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

You are not making any sense.

What is recreational whinging? Is there professional whingers? Are feminists professional whingers then? Do men need professional whingers do you think?

This is an online forum...people will disagree with you, it's not the end of the world...unless you are insecure or unsure of yourself of course, then it will gnaw at you...

There were typos Galore in my last post. I fixed them so it might be clearer now.

Some people just love giving out about feminism. And that's grand. Do what you enjoy.
An example of recreational Whinging is when discussing how to solve issues that affect men, a poster only wants to whinge about feminism and ignores any points about what would actually solve the problem.

AH is never stuck for a thread giving out about women but it's very hard to get a thread going about how to address men's issues. If you want to solve men's issues then the main thing that will cause that to happen, is men campaigning for those solutions.

Second to actually doing something to solve the issues is supporting those who actually do something to solve the issues.

[Deleted User]

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yep, that’s the key point I’m making - dressing like that certainly wasn’t the norm for men at the time. It was the norm for a small minority of society - the aristocracy, the nobility. Ordinary people didn’t look or dress anything like that.

True enough.. but I wear boots (Doc'm) all the time. They have roughly an inch heel on them. That's still manly, I suppose. You can find practical boots with variable sized heels throughout history... for some it was for horse riding. I'm sure with some digging you'll find plenty of other practical reasons for heels on boots.

I'm not really arguing against your point though.

[Deleted User]

KiKi III wrote: »

I think taking positive steps to address the challenges men face

Such as?

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

The narrative that as a feminist I want you to shut up is one that you’ve created. It doesn’t fit with my own beliefs nor what I know of the feminist movement.

In my view, feminism encourages men to speak out in ways traditional views masculinity might have prevented them from doing.

I’m interested in all kinds of people from all walks of life and I’m interested in hearing about all aspects of the male experience of life.

I believe in empowered women and empowered men. I think that’s the way forward.

I think taking positive steps to address the challenges men face would be a better way of spending time than getting mad about feminists on the internet.

No...it is not a narrative I have created...read you own posts...and look around you, when was the last time you saw someone on mainstream media critiquing feminism?

I believe if you need to be empowered you are a vulnerable individual.

Feminism is only encourages men to speak in a way that suits feminism, a point you are clearly demonstrating this very minute, as soon as man says something you don't like you try to dismiss him.

People expressing distaste on the internet for a movement that encourages women to forgo personal responsibility and embrace an infantile ideology is not "getting mad at feminism"...it is pointing out the blatant double standards feminism is riddled with...

KiKi III

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, actually, I would consider you to be incorrect there. The reason that radical feminism has gained so much momentum in society is that males tried to ignore it. It was too extreme. Too aggressive. The promoters of such were too weird, and full of hatred to be accepted. Instead, those ideas were allowed to filter from the internet into mainstream society, and gain acceptance.

If males wish to stop the spread of misandry then, they should take every opportunity to call feminism out on its' double standards, hypocrisy, and BS. It'll be the only way to oppose the stereotypes that feminists are comfortable promoting about males, which are held up within the law especially in the family courts.

You’ve raised a valid point here. Family courts have a historical bias against men that continues even today.

What I’m saying is this: Giving out about feminism will not solve this issue.

What might? Dáil protests, marches, lobbying your TDs, extensive media campaigns highlighting double standards and issues.

That’s what women did from the 80s to last year to get the 8th amendment repealed.

So, what I think El Dude is saying, or at least what I’m saying is channeling some of the energy currently spent giving out about feminists into the activities mentioned above would be far more likely to result in meaningful change in the family courts system.

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

No...it is not a narrative I have created...read you own posts...and look around you, when was the last time you saw someone on mainstream media critiquing feminism?

I believe if you need to be empowered you are a vulnerable individual.

Feminism is only encourages men to speak in a way that suits feminism, a point you are clearly demonstrating this very minute, as soon as man says something you don't like you try to dismiss him.

People expressing distaste on the internet for a movement that encourages women to forgo personal responsibility and embrace an infantile ideology is not "getting mad at feminism"...it is pointing out the blatant double standards feminism is riddled with...

Where do you feel I have dismissed you? I have disagreed with you, but I have not at any stage sought to dismiss you.

Again, this narrative that I want to dismiss you or shut you up is your creation. It suits your anti-feminist perspective but it’s not grounded in fact.

El_Duderino 09

KiKi III wrote: »

The narrative that as a feminist I want you to shut up is one that you’ve created. It doesn’t fit with my own beliefs nor what I know of the feminist movement.

In my view, feminism encourages men to speak out in ways traditional views masculinity might have prevented them from doing.

I’m interested in all kinds of people from all walks of life and I’m interested in hearing about all aspects of the male experience of life.

I believe in empowered women and empowered men. I think that’s the way forward.

I think taking positive steps to address the challenges men face would be a better way of spending time than getting mad about feminists on the internet.

The fact that you call yourself a feminist and you're saying this stuff should be evidence against what that poster has said. But in reality most posters just ignore it and go on with the narrative that they've created for feminists in their mind.

The fact that you, a feminist, would express support for solving men's issues, should be a problem for the narrative that feminism is the biggest problem for men. But it won't have much impact on anyone who just wants to whinge about feminism instead of wanting to solve problems or men. It never does.

the_pen_turner

KiKi III wrote: »

The narrative that as a feminist I want you to shut up is one that you’ve created. It doesn’t fit with my own beliefs nor what I know of the feminist movement.

In my view, feminism encourages men to speak out in ways traditional views masculinity might have prevented them from doing.

I’m interested in all kinds of people from all walks of life and I’m interested in hearing about all aspects of the male experience of life.

I believe in empowered women and empowered men. I think that’s the way forward.

I think taking positive steps to address the challenges men face would be a better way of spending time than getting mad about feminists on the internet.

if thats your view then great but dont kid yourself that its the view of most femanists. you regularly see tthe femanist side of the debate blaming men and making up all kinds of nonscience . the men bad woman good mantra is pedaled all the time

El_Duderino 09

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

'Guys PLEASE stop criticising feminism'.

Criticise it away (as I've said already). Just as long as you know it's Completely separate from solving the issues men face.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Naggin Merchant wrote: »

You expect us to believe a male co worker shows up to work in a school girl's outfit and you won't comment, won't ask questions? The most you'll allow yourself to do is think 'we'll he's not doing himself any favours'

You're full of it. At least I am honest in my beliefs.

I’d talk to other people about it, natch. But to the person? No, I wouldn’t.

You are in your hoop honest.

You’d say the square root of fuck all to them. Internet hard chaw, everybody.

And to what beliefs do you refer?

El_Duderino 09

the_pen_turner wrote: »

if thats your view then great but dont kid yourself that its the view of most femanists. you regularly see tthe femanist side of the debate blaming men and making up all kinds of nonscience . the men bad woman good mantra is pedaled all the time

That "men bad, women good" idea doesn't happen on boards. AH is never long without a thread blaming women for something. Ever compare the men's forum and women's forum on boards? Men's forum has loads of threads Complaining about feminism and women. Women's forum has no such abundance of threads Whinging about men or men's rights.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That "men bad, women good" idea doesn't happen on boards. AH is never long without a thread blaming women for something. Ever compare the men's forum and women's forum on boards? Men's forum has loads of threads Complaining about feminism and women. Women's forum has no such abundance of threads Whinging about men or men's rights.

The delightful thread the other day about the case where a man who admitted he raped a woman and people were still doubting it and her was an eye-opener.

[Deleted User]

KiKi III wrote: »

You’ve raised a valid point here. Family courts have a historical bias against men that continues even today.

What I’m saying is this: Giving out about feminism will not solve this issue.

It will help to limit the spread of harmful feminist driven agendas that are actively influencing society towards marginalising males in society and in education...

What might? Dáil protests, marches, lobbying your TDs, extensive media campaigns highlighting double standards and issues.

All of which have been attempted at various times, and shot down in various ways... feminism (in spite of the propaganda promoted) after the 80s/90s never faced a well funded and established anti-female organisation. Male rights does, since many feminists see male rights movements as an attack on women.

Don't get me wrong. I find many of the male rights movements to have the wrong focus by showing their bitterness in how they were treated by society or women... but feminists love to suggest that the situation for feminists is the same as it is for male rights. it's not.

That’s what women did from the 80s to last year to get the 8th amendment repealed.

Yup.. A lot of men also marched with those women to repeal the 8th. It's something I remarked on earlier. When it comes to issues relating to female rights, male contributions in helping are removed, to present the impression of women doing it all by themselves.

So, what I think El Dude is saying, or at least what I’m saying is channeling some of the energy currently spent giving out about feminists into the activities mentioned above would be far more likely to result in meaningful change in the family courts system.

I have a history with EL_D going back a long time, and I wouldn't trust any of his posts because of his posting style. Throughout my whole time on boards, I've ignored (and kept them ignored) a grand total of three people. El_D has graced that list a few times, and I've no interest in tolerating his dubious style again. Those on the Gentlemen's forum will know what I'm referring to.