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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

marno21

A desperately needed scheme in planning according to Michael Nolan of the TII at a recent Engineers Ireland conference.

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Macy0161

SeanW wrote: »

You are correct in that "more road" is not the solution to commuting problems - the same can only truly be solved with more public transport in any large city, however there are reasons other than commuting to build intercity and regional motorways.

Commuting is the capacity issue of the N/ M11 though. The usage stats, as well as the anecdotal evidence of Wexford/ Wicklow Bus and the 133 that bus can be a popular option. That is, in the N/M11 case, with those bus services being hampered by the lack of bus lanes.

The only widening involving tarmac should be for (ideally grade separated) bus lanes and cycle lanes, not extra car lanes be that for the main line or local traffic. Additional tarmac on Park and Rides along the route. Then drastically increase frequency. This won't happen, as the focus is always on car commuting.
Further in, Bus Connects will be hopelessly compromised by the failure to deal with on street parking, failure to have the will to close roads to cars, or severly restrict them, for the greater good of public transport.
Luas extensions and metros won't happen, because politicians will fight it as it discommodes motorists.

So I stand by my opinion Car is King in this state. Even the Road Safety Authority is predominately focused on what vulnerable road users can do to make themselves safer from motorists, not the behavioural change from motorists. For example, only driving at a speed you can stop in the distance you can see - there's no reason for a motorist to come around a corner and have to slam on because of a pedestrian, someone riding a horse, cyclist, loose sheep, tractor. Or at least no reason for the motorist to feel that the behaviour of the other party is something for them to give out about anyway!

prunudo

I urge anyone who thinks the n11 is only busy during rush hour to stand on any of the bridges between Kilcroney and Kilpedder for 10-15 mins during the day. The road is busy all day, the difference in the morning northbound and a lesser extent evening southbound is its at a crawl. Yes commuters contribute greatly to the morning mess (particularly school traffic) but to think that nobody uses it during 'off peak' periods is a myth, I posted a link to the traffic counters before and figures are quiet surprising when you see them written down, but anyone who lives within 50m of the road will tell you this from everyday experience anyway.

Macy0161

Busy isn't the same as at or over capacity. It is only at peak periods it is over capacity.

prunudo

Macy0161 wrote: »

Busy isn't the same as at or over capacity. It is only at peak periods it is over capacity.

The figures would say otherwise. Volume wise its pretty consistent throughout the day, the difference being that during rush hour it's congested and the traffic can't flow. And as I've said before the fact that local traffic is mixing with mainline traffic is a major factor in this.

AAAAAAAAA

SeanW wrote: »

Thusly, your claim that "the car is king" and "Irish people just want public transport for everyone else" can be proven false on a prima facie basis.

In Ireland, "car is king" is absolutely true. 75% of journeys are made using a car. The latter is harder to prove but, entirely anecdotally, I do know a number of car commuters who look forward to things like the DART expansion because it means they will have less other commuters to contend with.

daydorunrun

Hi folks, don't want to derail but could somebody advise on expected airport journey time from Rathnew to the Airport on a weekday morning as I don't usually travel this road in the AM?

Need to be at the airport for 8am tomorrow, would leaving at 7 be ok or is it gridlock at that time?

AAAAAAAAA

daydorunrun wrote: »

Need to be at the airport for 8am tomorrow, would leaving at 7 be ok or is it gridlock at that time?

You would want to give yourself 1.40 at that time if you definitely want to be there at 8am on the dot. 1.25 or so is the actual practical time, but traffic can be worse.

daydorunrun

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

You would want to give yourself 1.40 at that time if you definitely want to be there at 8am on the dot. 1.25 or so is the actual practical time, but traffic can be worse.

Much appreciated, cheers.

Idbatterim

I’d book the fast track if it’s only yourself too ! I tend to stay out at premier inn swords the night before early flight. Seventy euro last time and it’s five mins on their bus to airport ! Saves the m50 worry !

u140acro3xs7dm

daydorunrun wrote: »

Hi folks, don't want to derail but could somebody advise on expected airport journey time from Rathnew to the Airport on a weekday morning as I don't usually travel this road in the AM?

Need to be at the airport for 8am tomorrow, would leaving at 7 be ok or is it gridlock at that time?

Get on the road no later than 6:15. You'll probably be 30 mins early, but if you leave at 6:30,you may be late.

machaseh

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

In Ireland, "car is king" is absolutely true. 75% of journeys are made using a car. The latter is harder to prove but, entirely anecdotally, I do know a number of car commuters who look forward to things like the DART expansion because it means they will have less other commuters to contend with.

There will always be staunch car enthusiasts, even in countries with far superior public transportation such as the Netherlands or Japan many people still commute by car.

But the idea is the reduce the overal percentage of car commuters.

Proven by the fact that what little PT exists in and around dublin is almost always filled to the brim in rush hour, it is proven that expanding PT options will have a positive effect in the end.

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

Construction contract signed for Phase 1 of this scheme, the parallel service road at Kilmacanogue. Awarded to SIAC Construction, will take 6-9 months to complete.

https://wicklownews.net/2020/01/contract-signed-for-kilmacanogue-parallel-service-road/

I noticed they've cleared the old Ascon compound north of junction 9 and placed a few containers/portacabins down. Must be going to use this for the project.

Wasn't sure if it warranted a dedicated thread so just stuck it in here.

marno21

prunudo wrote: »

I noticed they've cleared the old Ascon compound north of junction 9 and placed a few containers/portacabins down. Must be going to use this for the project.

Wasn't sure if it warranted a dedicated thread so just stuck it in here.

The Kilmac project is a minor Phase 1 of the overal project so work away in this thread.

patrickbrophy18

josip wrote: »

Anyone else seeing only this when they click the plans or map links?
I've ticked the box (tx Pronudo) and Ctrl F5ed just in case

Looks like the site was designed by the County Manager's son or daughter for summer work experience.

Try Chrome. It worked for me!

hometruths

marno21 wrote: »

The Kilmac project is a minor Phase 1 of the overal project so work away in this thread.

Does the Kilmac road have an impact on any route choices? - i.e does building the parallel road make construction of one the offline options more difficult?

prunudo

schmittel wrote: »

Does the Kilmac road have an impact on any route choices? - i.e does building the parallel road make construction of one the offline options more difficult?

Don't think so, if anything it limits the amount of space for online upgrade. But who knows at this stage, given the opinion polls at the weekend I don't hold out much hope for any progress on this scheme in the long run.

hometruths

Just watched the Tonight Show held in Greystones last night where congestion on N11 was discussed.

Everybody seems to think the solution is just to turn the hard shoulders into bus lanes and hey presto, problem solved. Wishful thinking IMO.

Panjandrums

schmittel wrote: »

Just watched the Tonight Show held in Greystones last night where congestion on N11 was discussed.

Everybody seems to think the solution is just to turn the hard shoulders into bus lanes and hey presto, problem solved. Wishful thinking IMO.

I'm curious, are you on a public transport route?

hometruths

Panjandrums wrote: »

I'm curious, are you on a public transport route?

If you mean can I walk to a bus stop from my house, then yes I am. It would take me about 10 minutes to walk from my front door to the nearest bus stop.

Why?

Panjandrums

schmittel wrote: »

If you mean can I walk to a bus stop from my house, then yes I am. It would take me about 10 minutes to walk from my front door to the nearest bus stop.

Why?

I'm going to take am educated guess and say everyone living in an estate within Greystones lives within 10 minutes walk of a bus.

If bus lanes were increased and less priority was given to private cars, the vast majority of which are single occupancy. Journey times would drop, so more people use public transport.

Do you not agree?

hometruths

Panjandrums wrote: »

I'm going to take am educated guess and say everyone living in an estate within Greystones lives within 10 minutes walk of a bus.

If bus lanes were increased and less priority was given to private cars, the vast majority of which are single occupancy. Journey times would drop, so more people use public transport.

Do you not agree?

No, that’s exactly what I mean is wishful thinking!

prunudo

Panjandrums wrote: »

I'm going to take am educated guess and say everyone living in an estate within Greystones lives within 10 minutes walk of a bus.

If bus lanes were increased and less priority was given to private cars, the vast majority of which are single occupancy. Journey times would drop, so more people use public transport.

Do you not agree?

The majority of people driving out of Greystones will go up Windgates and join the n11 at jn7. A bus lane is needed here and on the southern cross as much as the n11.
Despite what the panel on The tonight show think the issues with the n11 are way more complex than simply turning hard shoulders into bus lanes. It will certainly make them more efficient and stop them getting clogged in the traffic but to think it will solve n11 traffic is miss guided.
My biggest fear is that they will create another fudge of a design as they are afraid to upset landowners and people effected by longterm sensible options. The cool thing to do at the moment is to slate roads and shout climate change but the reality is our population is increasing, new builds aren't going to stop so roads are needed

Macy0161

Bus lanes won't solve N11 traffic. They'll give the infrastructure to public transport, which is the only solution to traffic.

hometruths

Apart from the fact that adding a bus lane won't actually solve the problem of congestion, it completely ignores the fact that ARUP have identified the two significant contributing factors to the problems of congestion and safety on this stretch of the N11:

- the road has evolved over time with a series of piece meal interventions undertaken as short term measures to solve congestion and safety issues

- the road serves a combination of different types of traffic - commuter, commercial, local access, mainline etc - and the only way to improve safety is to separate this traffic.

Adding bus lanes and talking up increased public transport provisions might sound like a good plan, particularly for the likes of Stephen Donnelly in the week before an election but in reality it is another piece meal intervention that compounds the problem of incompatible traffic types.

Madness!

prunudo

Regardless of route selection, god knows what way this project will pan out now with the pending downtown.

Came across this earlier https://wicklownow.ie/news/developer-johnny-ronan-looks-to-build-exclusive-estate-on-site-beside-wicklow-motorway/

Right in the middle of one of the Kilcroney options. Now the question is, is it a real development or is he trying to increase the value of his land.

hometruths

prunudo wrote: »

Regardless of route selection, god knows what way this project will pan out now with the pending downtown.

Came across this earlier https://wicklownow.ie/news/developer-johnny-ronan-looks-to-build-exclusive-estate-on-site-beside-wicklow-motorway/

Right in the middle of one of the Kilcroney options. Now the question is, is it a real development or is he trying to increase the value of his land.

Surely this will just get knocked back as premature prior to route selection?

What's in it for Johnny Ronan to go through with the application?

Steve012

Did I hear right, that if the greens got in and they did, that projects (roads) by the last government be null and void, unless it was over 8 years ago, Didn't Finn gael set up Ireland 2040 a few years back?

Leonard Hofstadter

Steve012 wrote: »

Did I hear right, that if the greens got in and they did, that projects (roads) by the last government be null and void, unless it was over 8 years ago, Didn't Finn gael set up Ireland 2040 a few years back?

Yes and no.

The Greens did get their 2:1 ratio on public transport vs roads - but this is AFTER roads maintenance has been allocated. The 2:1 ratio relates to capital expenditure on new projects, i.e. new roads, trains etc.

Secondly, the Junior Minister in Transport (and all the other things Ryan has on his plate) is a Fine Gaeler not a Green, and will, amongst other things, have specific responsibility for roads.

In other words, there is still money for roads projects; maybe not as many as one might have hoped for, but definitely not the case that all has been lost on the roads front for the next 4-5 years.

Reuben1210

I fear Ryan has a personal interest in getting this upgrade mothballed, but have to hope he is overruled by the others given the fact it is way over capacity when the economy is not in a pandemic. Additonally, Stephen Donnelly had been campaigning for this for his constituency.

prunudo

Reuben1210 wrote: »

I fear Ryan has a personal interest in getting this upgrade mothballed, but have to hope he is overruled by the others given the fact it is way over capacity when the economy is not in a pandemic. Additonally, Stephen Donnelly had been campaigning for this for his constituency.

Whatever is done it can't be a fudge and must be designed to last longer than 10 years before it needs upgrade works again.
Like you I fear what the greens will mean for this project. Ideally it needs to be built in conjunction with the improvements to the Bray-Wicklow trainline and the windgates road but that doesn't seem to feature at all.
Hopefully arup have still been working behind the scenes throughout the covid crisis.