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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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liosnagceann75

6 changes to the team that faced wales in the 6 nations last year. 3 in the pack and 3 in the backs

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Conor Murray is an absolutely rubbish selection and the mental gymnastics required to try and excuse it are beyond my capabilities.

It really just is absolutely stupid at this stage.

"Here you go Conor, you were absolutely rubbish last year and you're still absolutely rubbish, but just have another go sure. John, I know you've been the best 9 on this island by a mile for at least a year now, I know you made Conor look like an amateur up in Ravenhill and I know you obviously were an improvement when you came on last week, but just take a seat on the bench there."

I guess this argument assumes we have all the information, but we very clearly don't.

So Cooney has been in the squad continuously for nearly two years. Summer tour 2018, November 2018, Six Nations 2019, pre-RWC and now Six Nations 2020. That's a lot of exposure to the coaches, a lot of chances to prove his worth. Yet in all that time, this is his first time rising above fourth choice, his first time being ahead of either Marmion or McGrath and whatever about Murray, neither of them are world beaters.

I wouldn't argue that Murray is in good form but it would really seem like there is something about Cooney that just isn't sitting well with the national coaches.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

I wouldn't argue that Murray is in good form but it would really seem like there is something about Cooney that just isn't sitting well with the national coaches.

Sure, but its now the same national coaches, essentially, the whole time which dulls the argument somewhat.

Neil3030

Plot twist - could Sexton be anxious about keeping up with Cooney's higher tempo?

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

I guess this argument assumes we have all the information, but we very clearly don't.

So Cooney has been in the squad continuously for nearly two years. Summer tour 2018, November 2018, Six Nations 2019, pre-RWC and now Six Nations 2020. That's a lot of exposure to the coaches, a lot of chances to prove his worth. Yet in all that time, this is his first time rising above fourth choice, his first time being ahead of either Marmion or McGrath and whatever about Murray, neither of them are world beaters.

I wouldn't argue that Murray is in good form but it would really seem like there is something about Cooney that just isn't sitting well with the national coaches.

The give McGrath a start, of Blade or even Casey

Just someone who will speed up the game.....

thomond2006

We all know who Ireland need. Youse know.

Burkie1203

thomond2006 wrote: »

We all know who Ireland need. Youse know.

Ginger McLoughlin?

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

We all know who Ireland need. Youse know.

Lowe?

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Plot twist - could Sexton be anxious about keeping up with Cooney's higher tempo?

Using Garry Ringrose (I know he's not available now) as a second playmaker kind of negates that 'issue'.

Yeah_Right

aloooof wrote: »

No, I'd have have Hooper or Savea. But thenI'd have them over Deegan too.

But why? POM gets more turnovers than them and probably more lineout. How can these other players compete with that?

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure, but its now the same national coaches, essentially, the whole time which dulls the argument somewhat.

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. I don't really care who they pick. This whole thing has been blown totally out of proportion.

I just don't think it's reasonable that so many people have written off Farrell after one game based on very marginal selection calls. I think it's a f**king disgrace, to be honest.

Neil3030

prawnsambo wrote: »

Using Garry Ringrose (I know he's not available now) as a second playmaker kind of negates that 'issue'.

Or Larmour, he could be another option, as could Addison (geddit) if he can ever get fit.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

It's not an argument, I don't really care who they pick. This whole thing has been blown totally out of proportion.

I just don't think it's reasonable that so many people have written off Farrell after one game based on very marginal selection calls. I think it's a f**king disgrace, to be honest.

Ah sure these anonymous internet folk always know best.

I got a chance to watch the first half back. Will follow up with the second half tomorrow. But there was a lot of positives to that half. We used width really well. We seem to be a bit slow to get our shape, which is to be expected if we are playing a new 1-3-2-2. We weren't helped by some really poor officiating which seemed to lead to us maybe not winning the number of penalties that we should have. In some of those cases the penalty or scrum went the other way for various reasons, which doubly impacts.

We need to get some more movement and animation in our game. If we can do that and settle into our shape a but better then we could see some good things from this side. Losing Ringrose will be an issue this weekend though. Hes become really key to what we do and how we do it.

Also, Murray made a few mistakes in the first half, but overall was actually fine. I dont see much of an issue with him starting this weekend.

Podge_irl

Former Former wrote: »

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. I don't really care who they pick. This whole thing has been blown totally out of proportion.

I just don't think it's reasonable that so many people have written off Farrell after one game based on very marginal selection calls. I think it's a f**king disgrace, to be honest.

Ah here, most people are not writing him off and those who are are not worth listening to. It is not unreasonable to be a bit disappointed with his selections so far. He may turn out to be great, but basically one injury in and we are back to the exact same team - and in particular the exact same backrow - that struggled so much for the last year.

When you look at the other teams in the 6N it is far from unreasonable to be a bit disappointed. The vast majority of people haven't written him off tbh and portraying it as such is doing the exact same thing you are claiming others are doing.

molloyjh wrote: »

Also, Murray made a few mistakes in the first half, but overall was actually fine. I dont see much of an issue with him starting this weekend.

The issue is that "fine" is the best he has shown for Ireland or Munster in a year. When does "fine" stop being enough?

If we are going to all go along with "the coaches know best" we may as well all stop bothering our arse coming here anyway.

Dubinusa

It's possible that the coaching team want to finish as high as possible. The 6nations is our bread and butter. It's more than likely that Murray will be gone in the next couple of years. When Marmion returns it adds another string to our bow. I would bench Murray. He's not in the same stratosphere as Cooney. But, I don't make the decision. Farrell may not have an option. A couple of losses and he will be in the spot a coach hates to be in.
By the end of this tournament if we **** the bed, Farrell will make the change.
Deegan hopefully, will take his opportunity! When he comes on, injuries not a factor, hopefully, Stander will go to 6. I think we're going to see a balanced back row!
Deegan was u20 world player of the year, has great potential and is a superb athlete. He's been on the radar for a while and it's time for him to stake a claim.
When everyone is fit and firing, the back row is stacked. I think we will see a different line up fairly soon.

Shefwedfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Plot twist - could Sexton be anxious about keeping up with Cooney's higher tempo?

Have you watched Leinster in, well the last 10 years, why would anyone think Sexton can’t play at high tempo? Leinster are kings of Europe at it

Burkie1203

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's possible that the coaching team want to finish as high as possible. The 6nations is our bread and butter. It's more than likely that Murray will be gone in the next couple of years. When Marmion returns it adds another string to our bow. I would bench Murray. He's not in the same stratosphere as Cooney. But, I don't make the decision. Farrell may not have an option. A couple of losses and he will be in the spot a coach hates to be in.
By the end of this tournament if we **** the bed, Farrell will make the change.
Deegan hopefully, will take his opportunity! When he comes on, injuries not a factor, hopefully, Stander will go to 6. I think we're going to see a balanced back row!
Deegan was u20 world player of the year, has great potential and is a superb athlete. He's been on the radar for a while and it's time for him to stake a claim.
When everyone is fit and firing, the back row is stacked. I think we will see a different line up fairly soon.

France at the weekend had 3 very inexperienced backrow at this level. They all were excellent. There is an obsession in this country with stuff like leadership and experience. It's usually thrown around as a reason to pick players and IMO if that's given as a reason to pick someone then that person shouldn't be picked.

Backrow lacking a ball carrier and scrum half are issues. Long standing ones. We can't remedy ever other perceived issue at once but we could make some headway by trying something different in the 6-10 area which is so crucial. I think we are no more or less likely to win/lose by making those 2 changes. Because right now We are struggling and we are back to over reliance on Stander. Wales and England are different in every way to Scotland.

prawnsambo

I think we're a bit hampered in our selections in the back row by injuries tbh. As always, we think we have depth until we don't. I would strongly believe that Jack Conan (had he been fit) would have been a shoo-in for eight. And the selection of Caslan Doris pretty much (imo) reflects that. Next in line are Max Deegan and Will Connors, but probably not at the same level as the other two. And that makes it a toss up in my mind as to who you select once Doris and Conan aren't available. At least Deegan is on the bench and we can get a look at him at this level. Hopefully he gets a decent run and shows up well.

baas baa

Are Standers passing statistics not going to be skewed by the fact he'll be popping the ball up to the 9 off the base of the scrum several times a game.

irishbucsfan

baas baa wrote: »

Are Standers passing statistics not going to be skewed by the fact he'll be popping the ball up to the 9 off the base of the scrum several times a game.

8 popping a short pass to the 9 hardly happens several times a game

sydthebeat

I'm happy enough to write off last week's result as a nervy win.

The erratic and frankly sub par reffing performance from an official that refused outside help, refused to communicate with players and refused to properly ref the ruck area. I haven't seen a ref allow such brutality on a jackler since Garces.

While pointe isn't my fav ref, at least one thing about him is consistency. He won't allow the lazy rollers and general sh1thousery that reynal did

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

The issue is that "fine" is the best he has shown for Ireland or Munster in a year. When does "fine" stop being enough?

When someone better comes along.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

When someone better comes along.

John Cooney has been better than Conor Murray at pro14 level and at European level for at least the past year. He was better than Conor Murray last week. Nominated for European player of the year.

We should stop pretending that he's not just better than Conor Murray this point. It's daft. It's not even a close call any more.

kilns

awec wrote: »

John Cooney has been better than Conor Murray at pro14 level and at European level for at least the past year. He was better than Conor Murray last week. Nominated for European player of the year.

We should stop pretending that he's not just better than Conor Murray this point. It's daft.

Its a typical Irish trait, once someone has past performances in the bank we will stick with them until its too late and blatantly obvious. Can you imagine the All Blacks persisting with Aaron Smith if he is playing "just fine" while there is another scrumhalf shooting the lights out in the Super 15, if form is not rewarded and guys who played well 2 years ago are picked ahead of you and are obviously not playing as well as you, how demoralising is that

ionadnapóca

Podge_irl wrote: »

If we are going to all go along with "the coaches know best" we may as well all stop bothering our arse coming here anyway.

Well said - "its good to talk"

Once Murray and Sexton were selected last week it's understandable that Farrell stuck with his selection this wk.

Its the decision to start with Murray last week is the problem.
It was the perfect opportunity to mix it up and see how Cooney went from the off. And would have been the perfect opportunity to back-up the talk of form selections.

“We want people sticking their heads above the parapet and saying, ‘please pick me’. That’s what we want to see over the next four or five weeks and I’m looking forward to watching that.”
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/rugby/six-nations-squad-will-be-picked-on-form-not-reputation-promises-andy-farrell-972062.html

Re: Deegan
He is a quality player. There will be no issue whatsoever when he's sprung from the bench.
PO'M played well last week and rightly shouldn't be leapfrogged by Deegan in the space of a week.

Still would only give the selection a C+

kilns

Former Former wrote: »

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. I don't really care who they pick. This whole thing has been blown totally out of proportion.

I just don't think it's reasonable that so many people have written off Farrell after one game based on very marginal selection calls. I think it's a f**king disgrace, to be honest.

I dont think anyone is writing Farrell off, you could he was trying to tweak how we approach things. However, you can understand the frustration of fans who went into the world cup with a lot of hope yet see the team fail badly and then one injury and its the same players/combinations that failed in the past being used again, when there are alternatives there. I know its not the job of the coach to appease us keyboard warriors of fans but you need to bring them with you too or else the whole marketing ****e that vodafone do will fall apart

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

John Cooney has been better than Conor Murray at pro14 level and at European level for at least the past year. He was better than Conor Murray last week. Nominated for European player of the year.

We should stop pretending that he's not just better than Conor Murray this point. It's daft. It's not even a close call any more.

What did he do better than Murray when he came on during the game on Saturday? I didn’t see any notable difference between them. You’re 100% right he is having a much better season than Murray. But what did Murray do so wrong on Saturday that Conney did better?

Former Former

awec wrote: »

John Cooney has been better than Conor Murray at pro14 level and at European level for at least the past year. He was better than Conor Murray last week. Nominated for European player of the year.

We should stop pretending that he's not just better than Conor Murray this point. It's daft. It's not even a close call any more.

The Pro14 is utterly meaningless for international selection and Ulster had a weird European group. The sample size of useful games is very small.

But the process is the same for everyone. Provincial form gets you into the squad, then it's up to you to take advantage. Cooney hasn't really done so despite repeated call ups.

I've given my possible explanation for that, what's yours?

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

But why? POM gets more turnovers than them and probably more lineout. How can these other players compete with that?

I only pointed this out to show that POM isn't the useless lump that some are painting him to be. A loose look at what was claimed:

Deegan "will offer more than POM."
There's obviously no way of knowing that. If it was that simple, Farrell would have selected Deegan.
This changed to "he'll offer more going forward". No issues with this.
Added to this was "...chances are he will tackle better too as he has a better tackle rate than POM in the European cup too."
This is inaccurate; their tackle % rates for the season are practically the same. (Deegan 87.3%, POM >87.7%).
When this was pointed out, this changed to "those percentages are meaningless" because "Deegan has made a hell of lot more tackles"

To back this up, another poster claimed "Deegan has made 132 tackles this season, POM has made 49."

This is just plain wrong. POM has made 94 tackles. Admittedly lower than Deegan but nowhere near what was being made out. And part of the picture of the tackle counts is also that POM has 9 jackals while Deegan has 0.
Finally, the original poster then claimed that "In truth whenever Ireland were at full strength it was POM that would lose out. cJ/Heaslip and conan/cJ"

With regards CJ and Conan, that's just plain wrong. Complete nonsense.

That's an awful lot of goalpost-moving and factual inaccuracy.

kilns

Former Former wrote: »

The Pro14 is utterly meaningless for international selection and Ulster had a weird European group. The sample size of useful games is very small.

But the process is the same for everyone. Provincial form gets you into the squad, then it's up to you to take advantage. Cooney hasn't really done so despite repeated call ups.

I've given my possible explanation for that, what's yours?

if provincial form got you into the squad, then probably we would have a different guy playing at 6 on Saturday